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Author Topic: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people  (Read 52565 times)

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Offline citabjockey

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2011, 03:36:01 PM »
OOOOhhhhh!!!!! tell me more about that bike! Have not heard this rumor before!  ;D

the new 2015 Yamaha DI 250 2T
Yamaha CT3, RT3, MX125, SC500, Toy Prius, Diesel F250 (it all balances out)

Offline Suzuki TS250/185

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2011, 04:18:04 PM »
It may be the new rules, the big 4, the AMA, whatever........there is no place in professional racing for 2 strokes anymore. "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now

Someone's talking out their Foop hole again... Every 2 stroke board needs a closet fooper I guess...

Here's a video where the announcers spend a Lot of time making excuses for the bikes that are "To good now..." It's absolutely hilarious! They're right in the middle of talking about how Factory Fonda now has to change these croaking concraptions out after EVERY MOTO... and just as they're discussing that, the lead FOOPER poops out... ;D

In fact, they spend more time in this segment making excuses for garbage bikes than I can ever recall... And... Keep in mind this is FACTORY garbage, not the less robust dust collectors that no one's buying off the deserted showroom floors in the shrinking (Or dissapearing) dealerships all over the good'ol USA!

2011 AMA Motocross 450s RD2 Freestone Part 3

Here's another one - THIS ONE'S KIND OF FUNNY TOO! Start watching from 11:40 unless you want to watch a great race - where a 125 is jumping all the jumps. After Tedesco's bike craps out and he kicks it to the ground as hard as he can, be sure to stay for Millsaps's bike giving up the Foop about a millisecond later.... In his interview, he sounds exactly like many 4 stroke owners I'm sure you've consoled before as they realize, usually about mid way through Saturday Morning, that their weekend of riding is over.... Along with maybe next week, maybe the week after... hell who knows how long it can drag on! And that's assuming they have another pile of money to throw into the crapper!

2004 Kenworthy Motocross 125cc - Moto 2

Those bikes are just too good... yeah


I think 4 stroke dirtbikes are a phase, kind of like "Glam Rock" in a way. You see the whole world subscribing to it, and you wonder how everyone could be choking down so much Kool Aid and Spam... Then 10 Years later, nothing's left but the timeless stuff from before and after..

Offline snook620

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2011, 07:58:45 PM »
Here we go....Im a closet fooper because Im not delusional? Some of you guys need to get real.

YES, they can still make a national per say but they wont be running anywere near the front. Its usually a local A rider running somewere outside the top 20. I bet you can count the number of 2 strokes that have been out there this season on 2 hands. Not being a dik....its the truth!

They need to just make a national 2 stroke class so everyone would be happy.
2000 YZ 125 under construction

Offline ktm150rippa

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2011, 08:06:42 PM »
bro it sounds like your the one that needs to get real if those guys were on 450's in my estimate may finish 1 or 2 spots better its not like getting on the pig is all of the sudden gonna make them a top 10 guys cmon bro. I dont think any1 here is being ridiculous we know pros are gonna be faster on 450's but if your not winning anyways whats the point honestly. Then again we're comparing bikes that are 200cc's apart!

Offline snook620

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2011, 09:01:30 PM »
bro it sounds like your the one that needs to get real if those guys were on 450's in my estimate may finish 1 or 2 spots better its not like getting on the pig is all of the sudden gonna make them a top 10 guys cmon bro. I dont think any1 here is being ridiculous we know pros are gonna be faster on 450's but if your not winning anyways whats the point honestly. Then again we're comparing bikes that are 200cc's apart!

Were talking about pro's at the nationals man. They use it all...every inch it has. So yes, being on a "pig" makes them faster. Those few guys making it on 2 strokes are at a clear disadvantage in that class, hats off to them for sure. Like you said yourself its a 200cc disadvantage, why even try?

At the local level all bets are off. Ive seen 250 2 strokes clean house many many times in the open class.
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Offline ACMX

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2011, 10:27:11 PM »
You talk about the guy that got a 250f and ran away from you but I have a story about a guy that won his seires on a KTM125 in the 250 class and the next year bought two new crf250's had a terible year and went back to his KTM125 cause he could turn fast lap times and is winning again. Also the statment that there are no moderen 250 two-strokes is not true have you seen the 2012 KTM250? or a GAS GAS. Also late in the race lugging around an extra 10 to 20 lbs will slow you down also. I remember when they changed the amateur rule 250 to 250 how the four stroke guys were having a stroke saying Thats not fair!

How modern are those bikes though?

I was mainly talking about a DI 250. Thats what I'd call modern.
ACMXProductions.weebly.com <-- Check it out! Now!

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Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2011, 02:50:10 AM »
OOOOhhhhh!!!!! tell me more about that bike! Have not heard this rumor before!  ;D

the new 2015 Yamaha DI 250 2T

Oh I knew someone would call me out on that!   :P

ALL - I made it up to support my statement.  ;D

I am not starting a rumor. I have no more contact with the Yamaha Motorcycle Corporation.  :-X
08 Speed Bird Quad 110, 08 KTM 144, 04 Suzuki LT-Z400, 03 Gas Gas EC, 300,97 Honda CR144, 96 Husky Boy 50, 88 Husky 400WR, 86 Honda CR125R, 80 Can-Am MX6 400, 75 Husky 360CR, 75 Husky 175CC, 73 Penton Jackpiner 175, 72 Husky 250CR, 72 Husky 125, 72 Rickman-Zundapp 125, (2) 71 Bultaco Pursang Mk

Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2011, 02:50:51 AM »
We can lay the blame at the feet of the manufacturers (Big 4+1) but they are in the business of making money, not racing machines (that is the job of the race teams). The AMA and the FIM are 100% to blame.

It was the AMA and the FIM who changed the rules, the tracks, and the incentives for racing that lead to our current situation. It was the AMA and the FIM that bowed to external pressure from the lobbyists (manufactures from Japan, TV and racing promoters) and totally disregarded the members of their organizations. And it is only the AMA and the FIM that can fix it.

And I apologize to those members of other nations beyond Europe and the USA (i.e. Aussies, Kiwi's, Japanese, etc). You have strong national bodies and excellent racing series but to truly influence a change in the sport, it will have to come from the combined might of the FIM or the purchasing power of the USA (thus the AMA).

We are here discussing 2T's and their exclusion in modern Pro MX but what is wrong with our sport and why did it get this way? Cost, compensation and unworkable class determinations.

At one point racing became too expensive, even to the big manufacturers so they cooperatively decided that it was better to lower the costs for the few and spread the costs for the many. They lobbied the AMA and FIM and they collectively agreed since they just witnessed the end of the British and Spanish motorcycle industries, the self destruction and greed in the German industry, and the rise and power of the Japanese, this was the best course of action. This lead to "production" based bikes and the end of the "Works Era". I don't think this was an evil scheme. Only the 10 best or most promising riders got the really good equipment which made it impossible for the privateer to even come close. Of course, now as then, you need train loads of cash to really compete, but in the heyday of MX, the factory riders had unobtanium.

This is where the AMA et al failed. Yes, the "Works" bikes disappeared but the cost of racing rose beyond what was invested in the works era. When "Privateer" Chad Reed was talking about starting his own team this season, he said he had a lot of help; Bel-Ray, engines by Pro Circuit, even some support from Honda. Yet, he also sank "several million dollars" of his own money into the adventure. Those were his words "several million dollars of my own money". Having to buy Pro Circuit, Eric Gorr, or some other skunk works engines is more than most pros can afford especially with no purse money.

Sure, the manufacturers pay contingency money, and you get sponsors, and your mum lets you eat at home and slips you beer money once in a while but really, where does a pro rider derive income? Well it used to be from racing. There was gate money and points money to be earned. Guys could race 4 days a week in Southern California, at least twice a week most places elsewhere. You were not going to get rich without a lucrative sponsorship but you got to ride! That's really why we do this. Not for the girls, the bling, or the t-shirt with your image on it.

Now, promoters get monopoly rights to AMA and FIM Pro Racing and they sell those rights to local promoters to host events. For FIM World Championship event, the cost is close to $500,000! Riders have to PAY a $1500 entry fee! It is no wonder that we are 1/2 way through the season and only have 52 riders in the points! 52? The signup for each event is limited to 90 with 40 going to the mains and only 52 in the points?

Finally, I'd like to address the classes. Two things happened. First, the old rule allowing up to double displacement for 4 strokes, and second, the demise of the 500 class. You really have to marvel at the modern 4$ engine. Compare that to an old Honda XL or BSA motor and it is night and day. You really have to respect the blood and sweat that went into it. But it's shit. You still can't compare it equally to available tech  (i.e. the 2T). Now I've said elsewhere that what the AMA and FIM need to do is define classes based upon what outcome they want to achieve. What are the goals? Unbridled speed? Emissions? Age? Gas mileage? Set the classes up like that. For instance, using gas mileage as an example, a 2 liter class would only allowed 2 liters of fuel per moto. "Run what you brung" but that is all you get. If you can make a fire breathing 500cc 2T motor last 45 minutes in the Florida (or Belgian) sand, more power too you (no pun intended)! Divisions based upon cylinder capacity are not working and will not work as we expand into the alternate fuel era!

The 500cc 2T class ended not because the AMA and the FIM were evil but because turn-out for the events declined. Less people bought the monsters until only 2 brands; Honda and Kawasaki even made them. (OK, I know that KTM, Husqvarna and some others did as well but they were not competitive.) Only our nostalgia makes us dream of their return. Now the FIM and AMA are talking about LOWERING the premier class yet again. Maybe to 350! This time it is for safety, but the conspiracy theorist in me says it is the manufacturers again. The 450F is pretty reliable since it is never pushed too hard but the 250F is a hand grenade. I 350 will break more (hand grenade like the 250F because it is pushed harder for the same result) causing us to buy more bikes and parts.

So in conclusion, if "you made me king" (or if the AMA/FIM asked me to fix motocross), I would:
#1 Change pro mx rules to be 2 classes: Pro and Junior Pro.
 - "Pro" would be any motorcycle that passed tech for safety, sound and emissions with any rider over 21 years of age.
 - "Pro Junior" would be would be any motorcycle less than 200cc that passed tech for safety, sound and emissions with any rider under 21 years of age. This would allow for youth to grow and have longer careers.

#2 Lower the cost charged to promoters for holding an event but make the difference a bond to be paid to all riders making the main event motos. Lowest denomination should be $1000.

#3 Throw away the production rule and the homologation rule, and replace it by a "Tear Down" rule. First three finishing positions WILL be torn down, inspected and documented. That documentation is shared publically. No secrets. This should limit the amount of unobtanium the factories throw at it but still allow for innovation. It would also allow for small industry to be involved. The likes of TM, Gas Gas, Maico, and the tuners of the past like FMF, Rickman, DG,  etc to build and race motocross at the highest levels.

Whew! My fingers hurt. I need a beer.
08 Speed Bird Quad 110, 08 KTM 144, 04 Suzuki LT-Z400, 03 Gas Gas EC, 300,97 Honda CR144, 96 Husky Boy 50, 88 Husky 400WR, 86 Honda CR125R, 80 Can-Am MX6 400, 75 Husky 360CR, 75 Husky 175CC, 73 Penton Jackpiner 175, 72 Husky 250CR, 72 Husky 125, 72 Rickman-Zundapp 125, (2) 71 Bultaco Pursang Mk

Offline EJ

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2011, 03:38:24 AM »
Goood post!!!
The first 2 sentences you wrote are spot on.
Therefor you deserve at least 2 beers!

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2011, 05:34:38 AM »
Snook, It's painfully obvious over the time you've been here, that you may like two strokes to some degree, but are definitely 4 stroke pro sided.  When you say the 4 strokes are better, you, to us, are one of the delusionals.  They aren't better, if they were better, then ProAMA would have changed the rules to allow 150cc and 300cc two strokes. Or even better, they would have allowed the rules in ProAMA to match that of AMA.  For 40 some years, they had the same rules in both pro and amatuer. All of a sudden, to keep pushing the 4 stroke agenda, they make them different.  Trust me when we say.  ProAMA and FIM make the rules 125cc, 250cc and open, 4 strokes in MX will cease to exist.  Why do you think team owners that doesn't have a 2 stroke lineup screamed and yelled at ProAMA meetings, that they better not allow the cc vs cc rules.  That is a FACT.  
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Offline factoryX

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2011, 06:23:11 AM »
Great posts.
 


I ride an 03 yz250, wait 04, wait 05, what ever, they're all the same #$@% YOU!

Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2011, 09:19:35 AM »
I hate to keep coming back too this but we are all saying the same things, only different.

I assume that Snook (and I guess I) do not think the 450F is a better bike than any other, only that under TODAY'S RULES, it is better than any 2T offering that MEETS TODAY'S RULES.

As good as the 2012 KTM 250SX is (the only 2012 2T bike on the AMA 'approved list'), it is still not the equal of the 450F's. Yes, Carmichael might be able to win on it. But he ain't comin' back and no new hot shoes are on the horizon.

I am 100% behind you though that the AMA Pro Racing (and the FIM for that matter) should adopt the AMA Amateur and ProAm class rules. Truth be told, those rules were a bird dog to keep the membership from cleaning house and not revolting against AMA leadership. The manufacturers hate it and MOST amateur racing organizations are not following it. Just like in Europe, everyone is using the Pro Class rules.
08 Speed Bird Quad 110, 08 KTM 144, 04 Suzuki LT-Z400, 03 Gas Gas EC, 300,97 Honda CR144, 96 Husky Boy 50, 88 Husky 400WR, 86 Honda CR125R, 80 Can-Am MX6 400, 75 Husky 360CR, 75 Husky 175CC, 73 Penton Jackpiner 175, 72 Husky 250CR, 72 Husky 125, 72 Rickman-Zundapp 125, (2) 71 Bultaco Pursang Mk

Offline ktm150rippa

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2011, 10:22:09 AM »
ya i can agree to that. A 450 better be faster than a 250 lol. I was just saying if your a poor privateer and your not gonna win anyways and could still qualify on a 250 why would you waste the money? And I thought some were saying a 250f is pretty close to the power of a 250 and I know they could compete on a dry slick track but what track on the outdoor nationals is dry and slick....... none that I know of?

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2011, 10:44:50 AM »
ya i can agree to that. A 450 better be faster than a 250 lol. I was just saying if your a poor privateer and your not gonna win anyways and could still qualify on a 250 why would you waste the money? And I thought some were saying a 250f is pretty close to the power of a 250 and I know they could compete on a dry slick track but what track on the outdoor nationals is dry and slick....... none that I know of?
The one exception to this whole dealio about 2 vs 4 in the Pro ranks. Cedric did win some SX overseas. Just sayin.  :-)  Carmichael in his prime would still be smokin that Azz with a 2012 RM250 updated to current. 
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Offline snook620

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Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2011, 06:09:53 PM »
Snook, It's painfully obvious over the time you've been here, that you may like two strokes to some degree, but are definitely 4 stroke pro sided.

I understand. I probably just seem 4 stroke pro sided when were talking about racing, every time it comes up I dont make any friends =(. Per the current rules 4 strokes rule professional motocross. Like you said it isnt fair.

Ive grown up riding/racing 2 strokes same as you, they will always be special to me but it doesnt mean I believe they are the best design to ever hit the dirt. They are not. It may seem crazy to you but I like the 450s in the nationals. I like watching the higher pace, I think its great for racing. If you watch a race from the late 90's it looks like a local C class compared to the pace they are runnig now.
2000 YZ 125 under construction