4 $troke lovers= delusional people

[chump6784]

In saying what I said previous, I still think there is a place for two strokes in motocross. KTM seem to be on winner with their 150 as from all accounts and reviews I have read they are as fast or faster than a 250f. It could be the same with the 250sx but I have not heard or read how they compare to a 250f. I do however think that the 125 is dead except for 125 only classes. They just give up too much.

[luthier269]

It depends if your a pro or not. As I've said before my son compeats in the 250C class on a 2001 cr125 and is in 3rd place in seires points. The person leading the class is on a Yz125 and 2nd place is a Kx250 two-stroke. There are alot of 250f's in the class but show NO advantage over any two-stroke 125 or 250. Unless your a top pro it won't matter that much. Remember most Pro's have hand built engine that cost $20,000 to $40,000. And they change them out every race. Not something the average racer could aford to do. And if you do lap times most good 85's turn the same lap times as 450's. Adam Cianciarula lives near here and I've seen him race his 85 in the open A class and beat all of them and some are on the Pro circuit right now.

[streaks383]

Look at the lap times at LL right now.  The top six 65cc riders are running faster laps than the last eight 450A riders.

[chump6784]

i am just speaking from my personal experience. my last year of racing was 2001, the year that 250f's were introduced. for the last round of a series i was racing in a guy that i would race closely with got a 250f and if he got the start i could not get round him. i could catch him through the tighter sections but the next straight and he was gone. our lap times were probably withing 1/2 a second of eachother but being down on power ment that if he got in front that was it. all i could do was push him and hope for a mistake.

i believe that a 2 stroke can go as fast or faster than a 4 stroke but its like every article i have read says, you have got to be switched on to ride a 2 stroke. it will make you a better rider but can also be a disadvantage as at the end of a long moto when mistakes usually occur, you cant afford to make any.

with DI coming, which is supposed to boost low end power, the 2 strokes may gain some ground but traction will still be the 2 strokes downside

[factoryX]

 An 03 and up yz250 standard bore is 66.4mm, while a 2011 yz250f standard bore is 77mm (A 78mm piston is about enough for a 370cc big bore kit for the YZ250 ). Again with a different bike, the standard bore size for a 2001 cr500 is 89mm, while a 2011 crf450r standard bore is 96mm. So larger piston, smaller stroke, and you get a bike that will rev to 14k rpm.

Was this completely ignored?

[VintageBlueSmoke]

There is a lot of mudslinging here but we are all saying the same thing and it is distracting us from issue.

We all agree that the industry (to include the major racing organizations) have conspired to eliminate the 2T.

We all agree that the 'modern 4$ motocross' bike is has raised the cost of racing beyond the range of the original target audience and into the realm of the super-rich.

We all agree that AMA and FIM Pro Racing should adopt equality rules (such as are in ANA Amateur Racing - and if your amateur racing series isn't using the 2011 AMA rules, YOU should petition they do so.)

The people that believe the 4$ is better are not wrong. They have not "drunk the Kool-Aid" or been "assimilated by the borg of corporate advertising". They have weighed their options and determined that they can compete better on the 4$, even at greater cost, given the rules they must compete under.

I concede that there are a lot of people uneducated in the advantages of the 2T out there, and quite a few (stupid, stubborn, argumentative, afraid of change - insert appropriate adjective here) people as well. And that is fine because it allows me to still be in front of someone else, and that is getting rarer and rarer these days.

But delusional they are not (OK some probably are, I'm trying to be diplomatic).  It is us that keep harping on the IF's (i.e. if the AMA would..., if the manufacturers would...). Until we focus on the DOES (i.e. the next Carmichael does destroy the competition on the new 2015 Yamaha DI 250 2T), we are leaning toward the delusional.

[factoryX]

Of course people are going to take every opportunity while racing, and if that includes buying 4 stroke mx bikes, fine. But the problem is that not everyone is out to win races, so why would you need a top of the line bike that cost $8k-$10k and is only good for one thing, racing? The point of this article was pointing out how people say 4 strokes in general are more powerful, reliable, and are indeed the way of the future. The "majority" of the 4 stroke buying public are people who bought into this lie. There for they are indeed delusional, even if they were mislead. The information I posted is why and how they are delusional.

So at this point we know Who, What, Where, How, and why. So what are we going to do about it? Is there a donation box for someone to build EFI/DI 2 stroke mx bike? Is there a EFI/DI forum where we can discuss/post information. There is so much that we can do and no one has made the initiative to do something. 20 years of stagnation has really put the 2two stroke behind, and from a racing point of view its chances of recovering are at a 50/50.

Another issue is people need to get over the whole "I hate EFI" Or "Carbs work just fine" point of view. If you want to keep using your decade old bike fine, but if there is room for improvement why not do it. They work great in Sleds, they work Great in boat motors, and they also work great 2 stroke diesel applications.  

[Shawn36]

Another issue is people need to get over the whole "I hate EFI" Or "Carbs work just fine" point of view. If you want to keep using your decade old bike fine, but if there is room for improvement why not do it. They work great in Sleds, they work Great in boat motors, and they also work great 2 stroke diesel applications.  

That's certainly true, there is always room for improvement but that comes at a cost doesn't it.  Is a new EFI or DI 2-stroke going to be affordable or are we just gonna be looking at another 8-10k motorcycle?  I think everyone agrees the advantage of a current 2-stroke is they cost less to produce and maintain.  Taking away half that advantage doesn't make it as appealing when the dealer is willing to give you that 2 year old floor model 4-stroke for 2k off sticker, but he wants full price for the 8k 2-stroke. 

[ktm150rippa]

my whole reason for the "delusional" comment was them talking about the power of a 125 like is was some dog and incapable of jumping things a 250f could jump basically saying a 125 couldnt make this 100ft table top and this wasnt a jump like close to a corner or anything it was a long enough run up to hit 4th pinned. I bet Adam C could make it on his super mini. Then they were carrying on how the 2 stroke was dead and that his race 250f would hand a 250 2 stroke its ass I bet you it wouldn't beat this bike with a pro on it

[TMKIWI]

The key word here is modern. A modern 250 would probably smear a modern 250f ... but there are none. Quote

I keep hearing people say this but what has really changed in the last 5 years. Leaving the motor aside a 2010 YZ250 has the same chassis as the 05. The 10' YZF has the same chassis as the YZ but with the frame spars fitted back to front and different suspension valving. Nothing much has changed in chassis design just tweeks here and there. Put new suspension components on a 05' RM250 and it will handle as well as anything new.
On the motor side the modern F is a piece of engineering marvel. But at a price. Using F1 technology we know have 4 strokes no one would have thought of 15 years ago. They are as far removed from an XR as you could get. The problem is for a factory race team they are a great race motor under the rules we have. For Joe Smoe they are an expensive toy to have to race just to finish around 20th.
If you want to win you now need a trust fund. The good thing about that now is where there is cc v cc racing guys now have the option to go back to a bike which is cheaper to run.

Forget about the pro's. You will just argue until you are blue in the face.

What I think is funny is with all the millions thrown at 4 strokes over the last 11 years they are still not noticably faster then a 2 stroke which hasn't had any real engine development over the last 15 years.

That must piss the F**K out of the managment of the big 4.

Just goes to show what a simple and effective engine the 2 stroke is.

[EJ]

I agree that the new techniques must be better in every aspect, and also reliable and affordable!
I'm guessing the first few models will have their flaws and hiccups, altho I'm not reluctant to the new stuff.
But, untill it works just as flawless on a dirtbike than on boats and sleds, I'll stick to the carb.

Also,
will the newer future 2Ttechniques and engine design really bring fair and equal rules,
or will they continue to handicap and belittle the 2T ? ? ?

[luthier269]

You talk about the guy that got a 250f and ran away from you but I have a story about a guy that won his seires on a KTM125 in the 250 class and the next year bought two new crf250's had a terible year and went back to his KTM125 cause he could turn fast lap times and is winning again. Also the statment that there are no moderen 250 two-strokes is not true have you seen the 2012 KTM250? or a GAS GAS. Also late in the race lugging around an extra 10 to 20 lbs will slow you down also. I remember when they changed the amateur rule 250 to 250 how the four stroke guys were having a stroke saying Thats not fair!

[yo_marc]

One thing that bugs me about the fours stroke MX bikes --- We've had the Yamaha R6 sportbike on the market for a while now.  Since '99.  That thing will rev well up to 15,000 rpm, AND last ya well over 50,000, 75,000, maybe 100K miles, with valve adjustments every 24k miles or so.

The big four seem to be in such a HP war, that the modern MX thumpers are tuned way too hot to have that kind of durability.  Pull them back like 5hp, or spend a little extra on durable valvetrain parts, so that the have some durability that's normally associated with 4-strokes,.. and I wonder if as many people would be as upset about them.

[snook620]

Forget about the pro's. You will just argue until you are blue in the face.

This. It may be the new rules, the big 4, the AMA, whatever........there is no place in professional racing for 2 strokes anymore. "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now

[ktm150rippa]

Forget about the pro's. You will just argue until you are blue in the face.

This. It may be the new rules, the big 4, the AMA, whatever........there is no place in professional racing for 2 strokes anymore. "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now

hasn't more than 1 person qualified on a 2 stroke this year?