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Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2010, 09:56:56 AM »
The current crop of four stroke MX bikes is far exceeding the tune of the 2 strokes. Tune your CR250 to the level of a CRF450R and it will need frequent maintenance as well. The advantage of two strokes is the superior output at a relatively mild state of tune that the diesels simply can't match. That and the relative simplicity inherent in their design.

A CRF at 10K is at 4490 FPM. CR250 at the same is 5206. Wouldn't live long there.

Look I disagree with the current rules too. But the 4 strokes have elevated the state of the art for smokers as well. Try looking at the bright side once in a while.

Huh?  I don't understand your statement. What part has the 4 strokes elevated the state of the art for 2 strokes?  Where would the 2 strokes be if all the same R&D went that direction? Millions upon millions have been spent on the 4 strokes. again, you are comparing apples to oranges.  Please redo your calculations using 250cc vs 250cc and 450cc vs 450cc.  The fact that cc's or FPM has to be higher to even compare to 2 strokes is the problem. so sure, if we up our 2 strokes 40% RPM, we will have problems. But we don't have to, the power exceeds the 4 stroke per cc without needing too. I mean, in your logic my CR500 should be compared to a Chevrolet V8.  
A better deal would be to limit the 4 stroke max RPM and make them reliable.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 10:08:13 AM by miedosoracing »
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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2010, 10:31:12 AM »


Huh?  I don't understand your statement. (You can say that again.) What part has the 4 strokes elevated the state of the art for 2 strokes?  Where would the 2 strokes be if all the same R&D went that direction? Millions upon millions have been spent on the 4 strokes. again, you are comparing apples to oranges.  Please redo your calculations using 250cc vs 250cc and 450cc vs 450cc.  The fact that cc's or FPM has to be higher to even compare to 2 strokes is the problem. so sure, if we up our 2 strokes 40% RPM, we will have problems. But we don't have to, the power exceeds the 4 stroke per cc without needing too. I mean, in your logic (I thought you didn't understand?)  my CR500 should be compared to a Chevrolet V8. 
A better deal would be to limit the 4 stroke max RPM and make them reliable.

I won't confuse you with facts since you've already made up your mind. Actually their should be no limits other than displacement and weight. Pound for pound and CC for CC. Let's not make this restrictor plate racing.


Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2010, 10:39:06 AM »
Quote
I won't confuse you with facts since you've already made up your mind. Actually their should be no limits other than displacement and weight. Pound for pound and CC for CC. Let's not make this restrictor plate racing.

Facts make up minds and my mind surely can change, so please enlighten me with how they have elevated the 2 strokes above where they would have been had there been R&D directly? If you can put facts up, it can change my opinion if it supports what you say.  I really would like to know. Since there is only 1 Big OEM who even does R&D on them anymore.  Edited: 1 stopped making them, and 3 just remakes the 2005 model, which only 1 is sold in the US. Also, not understanding the CC for CC and pound for pound?  Well, atleast the pounds.  Should we keep weight constant or try to make bikes lighter?  You would be surprised to know what direction the MX racing is going. Just think NASCAR and you will know.  Gone will be the days a local pro can jump into a national and say I wanna race.  Track changes etc. There will be a lot coming in the next few years.  2 stroke cc for cc against 4 strokes is not on the horizon.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 10:50:04 AM by miedosoracing »
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Offline bearorso

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2010, 11:47:25 AM »
I took Big Boars post as him just saying that the development / tech level present in 4ts nowadays means that 2ts will be benefiting from much that has been learned from the 4t side of things - AND, that new 2ts when they come, will be a much better thing than they have been in part because of it.

We all know that 2ts HAVE to become cleaner than clean to continue to exist, because of the prejudice against them as being dirty , smelly, polluting things.

The wildy over-square development of 4ts is down to needing the revs to get higher HP levels, and the need for more flow, in and out of the head, to achieve that.

As 2ts inlet and exhaust comes through / out of the barrel, well , the stroke needs to be longer for the inlet and outlets - simplistically put, but accurate.

DFI will change this, to a certain extent, as the limit to fuel getting in is largely overcome, though you still need to get the air in - I think that to get the entire air/fuel charge in by just an injector unit itself would be extremely difficult - the injection system possibly would be bigger, more complicated than the engine itself - not that I am much of a motor man, my engineering experience and qualifications are more on the fabrication/chassis side of things, so I'd defer to others.

I've 2 good friends who are, respectively, a thermo dynamics specialist/engineer, and a EFI/DFI specialist / engineer. Our conversations with regards to 2t development are always interesting - neither are 2t devotees, but both, from their pure engineering points of view, believe that the 2t has a great future - moreso than 4ts, if only government/public prejudices are overcome, and manufacturers with a total commitment to 4ts can be "dealt' with - their words, not mine!

I doubt we will see such over-square dimensions on 2ts as 4ts, as they don't need it, but the DFI outboard motors are slightly over-square (ironically, I think some that I checked quite a while ago, pretty much echoed the over square dimensions of a CR500 - an engine that was quite an anomaly amongst big capacity 2ts).

Interestingly, the DFI 2ts , are using bigger capacity engines than the 4ts. I'd say it's a result of outboards being rated in HP, not capacity, and as the 2ts are so much lighter, they can go to bigger engines (yet Still be lighter!), for their under-stressed nature when delivering the HP level required, whilst giving all the benefits of more torque that the big engine delivers ( to add to the higher torque a 2t has, over a comparably sized and tuned [level of] 4t).

It will be interesting to see what happens with 2t tuning.

The rumours surrounding the Husaberg DFI 230 & 370  have them as having a straight pipe - no expansion chamber. This is the sort of thing I've discussed with my above mentioned friends. There may be a lot of different approaches to 2ts with the advent of 2ts - DFI can mean that the scavenging effect of a chamber will not be needed to 'reclaim' the lost fuel charge from the exhaust port, and the efficiency this gives negates the need for a chamber - ie: the 2t will not need to have such 'exotica' on it. A trapping valve exhaust port can add to this - combinations of these and AST and FAST tech means there will be potential for myriad combinations. My mates do also say that you'll still be able to get even more power with the use of a chamber, most notably when not using a trapping valve, as air/oxygen used to scavenge out the exhaust can be reclaimed to get it back into the engine. As both are also practicing academics, their maths escape me at times, as my math levels have decreased to that of just force vector analysis etc - if you don't use it, you loose it, is so very true.

Any way you look at it, Anybody who says 2t are at the end of their development is a fool. The  variety of options that manufacturers/engineers have available to them is astounding. With respect to Mitch Payton, his assessment only applies to the old school 2ts which we currently are left with. And those comments were probably made a few years ago. Well do I remember many quotes attributed to Mitch, calling the YZF250 'cheater bikes' when he had only the 125 Kawi to do battle with it - mind you, he and his riders did damned well with it, and JS made the other riders look a bit silly the last year he rode the 2t (and , yes, I know he used a 4t for the last round at Glen Helen that year - after he'd wrapped up the title on one of the few 2ts still on track).

 You can bet Honda will be lobbying even harder to keep 2ts from being given capacity equivalency - they are so committed to 4ts. Mind you, if it came to it, they still probably have more 2t engineering innovations locked up than anyone.......The EXP / ARC technology was probably just the tip of the iceberg. :'(

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2010, 12:14:24 PM »
I took Big Boars post as him just saying that the development / tech level present in 4ts nowadays means that 2ts will be benefiting from much that has been learned from the 4t side of things - AND, that new 2ts when they come, will be a much better thing than they have been in part because of it.
(YES!! Thank you you've passed the audition. The 2 stroke advantage will be hard to ignore. It is green manufacturing,less material to build and maintain. Better fuel efficiency when they're done cleaning them up. But I still love the smell of 2 stroke oil burning. That will be hard to get used to.)

You can bet Honda will be lobbying even harder to keep 2ts from being given capacity equivalency - they are so committed to 4ts. Mind you, if it came to it, they still probably have more 2t engineering innovations locked up than anyone.......The EXP / ARC technology was probably just the tip of the iceberg. :'(

And it's likely I've purchased my last new Honda because of their corporate,uhm........well...................bullying? I've fallen for the European stuff anyway. My Tuono did that.

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2010, 12:37:40 PM »
Great write up Bearorso.

"I won't confuse you with facts" "But the 4 strokes (have) elevated the state of the art for smokers as well."
On a side note you used present tense not future, it is an opinion not any facts about if or if it will or will not help 2 strokes with 4 stroke development.  I will agree that it is possible, but at a varying degree, compared to the last 5 years with only 2 strokes. But believe it is a fact I will not, and being a smart azz about it didn't help your point. I believe the 2 strokes would be further if they continued R&D on them and had to meet new emmissions.  We would very likely already see things like DFI etc.  Those are already on Diesels etc.  Look at snowmobiles, boats and Lotus. Focusing on 2 strokes.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 01:20:51 PM by miedosoracing »
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Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2010, 12:44:45 PM »
Bye the way bearorso.  I was gonna mention the CR500 because I have one :-)  They even had shorter strokes when they first came out.  Many people said those were more abrupt. I think most of the current 2 strokes were undersquared because of years of trying all different ways, showed them that current bikes give the best overall power, and smoothness together.  
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 12:47:28 PM by miedosoracing »
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Offline KTMguy

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2010, 01:21:17 PM »
I think I get what your saying bearoso, and I agree. If 4 strokes were never produced, than I think that 2 stroke MX bikes wouldnt have seen much development in the past 7 years. Just look at it this way, I'd say 2 stroke development stopped on average around 2003-2004. If they had continued to be developed up through 2010 the bikes would have had some cooler plastic, and all of these "updated" 2010 2 strokes would have had aluminum frames.

Just look at the difference in bikes between 1993, and 2000. Not a huge difference.

But now that these cleaner, smoother, and more torquey motors have been developed and the games been elevated, albeit a displacement handicap. The MX world can't go back to 2003 now. So that means 2 stroke manufacturers need to hit the drawing boards, and give the people what they want.

And reading bearoso's post it sounds like there's great potential.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 01:29:01 PM by KTMguy »

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2010, 01:30:02 PM »
KTM guy, I agree, although did the clean air emmission talk come before or after the 4 strokes came into play? My belief is, that no matter with 2 or 4 strokes, the emmissions was gonna be directed this way. It was just a matter of time. So according to DC, the big OEM's said we have 1 of two directions to go and they chose, well you know.  But Tiki on vital will tell you that, emmissions even though was used as a bogus reason to push the 4 strokes, it was still really being pushed.  So, that points to the things like EFI in the 4 strokes etc.  It was coming on a 2 or 4 stroke most likely either way.  I guess the real question, is what advancements besides emmission type things, will the 2 stroke gain from these 4 strokes?  I think frames maybe, had a llloooong conversation with my 4 stroke loving friend last night about that. I am not sold, although he is, that the 4 strokes or just years of developement have made the chassises better and handle better. I am not sold, because the handling is different on a 4 or 2 stroke, but he disagrees.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 01:34:17 PM by miedosoracing »
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Offline KTMguy

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2010, 01:36:21 PM »
I'm not surprised they went with the 4 stroke route. All the OEMs have gone down the EFI road with their street bikes for years. And then to top it off some crazy New Englander showed up to Vegas race on a 4 stroke works bike and waxed everybody.

The things that keeps me off of them is the weight, boring power delivery, and I can't work on the bastards!

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2010, 01:48:26 PM »
I'm not surprised they went with the 4 stroke route. All the OEMs have gone down the EFI road with their street bikes for years. And then to top it off some crazy New Englander showed up to Vegas race on a 4 stroke works bike and waxed everybody.

The things that keeps me off of them is the weight, boring power delivery, and I can't work on the bastards!

Oh, when it comes to money, I definitely see why. But they didn't look at the big picture.  Running off people who blow their new bike up and can't afford rebuilds. People chosing not to buy a new bike every year because of cost.  Things like that.  They saw money for parts, the ability according to my source for Honda, to use street bike parts like valves etc.  Basically less retooling and stuff. 
Damn Doug Henry, too bad we all like him so much, or maybe we'd direct our hate towards him. LOL
I just traded my XR600 off because I couldn't stand the thump thump feeling when coming out of corners etc.  My friend said you like other street bikes, I was like, well... hmmm  well those are in some ways more like 2 strokes because they fire like a 2 stroke because they have opposite pistons firing so I guess that is why..  I just couldn't stand my XR and hopefully the XR200 goes down the road today. 
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Offline bearorso

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2010, 01:54:15 PM »
I've always thought that the CR500 was loosely based on the 250s, stemming from the Mugen 360 kits, Honda never really putting much effort into it, what with the short stroke etc. But being a 500 2t, power was never a problem.

I know that a lot of privateers who continued to use CR500s in the GPs, prior to the arrival of the CRF450, actually ran their bikes with a smaller bore, with capacity of between roughly 400 to 440. Christian Burnham (sp?) was quoted as running a de-bored 500 , I think with the Sarholtz team, saying it was the best 2t engine he ever used. It appeared in a 4t/2t article to my recollection, the British Moto magazine a couple of years ago.

I first thought you were directing the 'Facts" thing at me, and was a bit puzzled, but caught on it was between you and Big Boar.

I think we are all on the same side, just misreadings, misunderstandings.

I could easily misinterpret Big Boars point about tuning a CR250 (with my belief that the current/non current 2ts have a comparatively higher state of tune than 450s because they have to, to compete against engines that are so much bigger) to the same level as a CRF450 - believing, as I do, that with the current  level of 4t tech ( that is still going to progress vastly), that 450s are at very low relative states of tune, being that no one could use all the power that they could get out of a 450 even now - that's always been the case with any open classer, and always will be.

I remember reading Dave Thorpe's column in Dirt Bike Rider years ago, when he'd write each year that the Honda engineers would present him with an 80/90+ HP engine for initial testing, and he'd get them to back off and just give him his 60/70 HP engine that he favoured.

But then I slowed down and just realised Big Boar was referring to piston speeds, and , of course, a 72mm stroke would put a hell of a lot more stress on things than the 60mm (not sure exactly what it is?) stroke of the CRF, at the same revs if you tried to spin the 2t that hard. I think the hard rev limiter on a CRF is somewhere near 11400!!!!!! :o(or at least one of the 010 450s have that as their cut out). That's fairly mind blowing on a single intended for use on the dirt, don't you think? So as my favourite penguin would say , Kaboom, Kaboom!

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2010, 02:09:58 PM »
For sure for sure on about everything you just wrote. I think the 400 2 stroke with an electric start, DFI and counter balancer to negate any vibration, would be the best open classer ever built.  Hmmmm, just thinking of how good that would be makes me dreamy. LOL  8)

By the way, via a current pro mechanic of the big 4, they do still detune these 450F's.  I'm guessing the new 350F will be about the same HP as the raced 450F's just by tuning up a 350F and down a 450F.  Why oh why couldn't they have made life easier with keeping with the 1970's - 1994 rules of 360cc.  >:D
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 02:12:17 PM by miedosoracing »
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Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2010, 02:16:13 PM »
As far as the RPM thingy, my friend (the 4 stroke lover) and I had thought about coming up with a bolt on kit for the 4 stroke bikes to make them more reliable. First, the piston would be heaver and stronger, thus would slow the RPM down. Then a lower rev limiter.  But my only fear was that the crank would have a harder time because of the heavier piston.  I guess it might negate itself with the slower top rpm's but heavier piston. That idea made it one night on the phone. LOL 
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Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2010, 03:10:27 PM »
Great write up Bearorso.

"I won't confuse you with facts" "But the 4 strokes (have) elevated the state of the art for smokers as well."
On a side note you used present tense not future, it is an opinion not any facts about if or if it will or will not help 2 strokes with 4 stroke development.  I will agree that it is possible, but at a varying degree, compared to the last 5 years with only 2 strokes. But believe it is a fact I will not, and being a smart azz about it didn't help your point. I believe the 2 strokes would be further if they continued R&D on them and had to meet new emmissions.  We would very likely already see things like DFI etc.  Those are already on Diesels etc.  Look at snowmobiles, boats and Lotus. Focusing on 2 strokes.

I'll not bother you anymore. If I wanted to argue I'd find a woman.