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Offline AFG

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What killed the 500 class?
« on: November 25, 2009, 07:48:59 PM »
A friend and I were discussing this subject while we were looking at my recent purchase(KX-500). He thought it was because they made to much power and were too hard to ride(this came from a guy riding a CR 450F). When I began racing, the open class(251cc-500cc) was the premier class to ride. What happened?

Offline meger z

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2009, 02:44:13 AM »
A friend and I were discussing this subject while we were looking at my recent purchase(KX-500). He thought it was because they made to much power and were too hard to ride(this came from a guy riding a CR 450F). When I began racing, the open class(251cc-500cc) was the premier class to ride. What happened?
its was Suzuki then Yamaha put the knife in they stopped making 500s.The 500 class was doing well but the AMA stopped the class. 

Offline JohnN

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2009, 05:20:32 AM »
I have an article from MXA that explains the demise of the 500 class.

Once I locate it I'll post in on the main site.

From what I remember the class just started to shrink on it's own at the local level. Riders thought that it was much more fun to compete and watch the 125 and 250 classes, mostly because they were exciting and the 500 class "looked" boring.

Of course the expert riders made the bikes fly, even at the local level.

The pro class was a whole different animal, it was amazing to watch them ride the 500's the way they were made to be ridden. I was fortunate enough to be a mechanic for a racer during the late 1980's and be up close and personal to some of the top 500 racer of the time.

Getting to watch Rick Johnson, Ron Liechen, Jeff Stanton, Jeff Ward and the others up close, racing the 500's was almost a religious experience!

It seems that more people now like the ideas of the 500's them they did back then. Maybe it's because of the development of the AF conversions. And the taming of the power delivery.

Personally I loved riding the few 500cc bikes I had the opportunity to throw a leg over. They were blindingly fast if you knew how to ride them properly (short shifting them and not revving them). The danger was coming into a corner compared to the 125's that I was used to, the corner entry speed was so high, that I felt that I would overshot almost every corner! I think I may have "hurt" a few of the berms on certain tracks! LOL
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Offline AFG

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2009, 06:51:14 AM »
I would like to read that article. I am lucky to have grown up here in south Texas, and had a very fast pro help me out alot with 500 riding techniques(lot's of clutch work). I started racing open bikes when I was 14. You are correct that if your good it may not seem like you're going fast. However, I have raced with a few riders in the open class that were quite exciting to watch, and not in a good way(ha ha). I love the 125's . I could never ride the 250's as well as the 500's though. different techniques I guess. Still fun bikes though. I am very excited with the new AF conversion's. They may be the open bikes salvation.

Offline Out of Order

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2009, 07:26:41 AM »
Too much horsepower? I thought there was no such thing!! Look at the new Maico 500 or.... I'm thinking of there bigger bore bikes(think 680 or 700). ;D I personally never rode a 500, but know people who have and they tell me you have to be nice to her or she will send you for a ride. All about throttle control. Maybe someone will bring the 500 class back at a national level, and I doubt the AMA will.

Offline AFG

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2009, 07:42:17 AM »
I guess some that say they (500's)had to much power confuse amount with delivery. Jetted, and geared corectly open bikes can be very easy to go fast on. I agree the AMA probably won't bring back the open bike displacement nationals. I want to see those yellow backgroungs on number plates again.

Offline Alec S

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2009, 08:17:56 AM »
I think many "average Joe's" lost interest in Open bikes for MX when it became clear that faster lap times could be made [by some riders on some tracks] on a 125/250. They reasoned "why ride an Open bike when 125/250 are faster" thus justifying [to their minds] that a bike they couldn't ride fast [Open} wasn't 'worth' owning.

It seems to me that even with all the AF conversions today, most people use them for 'play' bikes not MX racers.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2009, 09:57:27 AM »
On the track, a 250 may be faster than a 500 some of the time.  As a play bike, I don't think it'll come close.  As my dad said last night when we were in his garage of 11 bikes, "the problem with those [pointing at pair of Maico 250s] is that you can't hold a slide.  With that, [pointing to 440 Maico] you can get whatever you want just by using the throttle, like in the old Ghia."  The 500s are great bikes to ride around in because you can go fast without really having to work at it.  People say they're tiring and hard to ride and this and that, but that just means that they're trying to ride it like a 125.  I'll admit, when you claw after every possible rev then bang a few gears on full power, it's going to be scary.

I've told this story a lot recently, but whatever.  Toward the end of the last riding season, I was riding my 250 Husky and my dad took out his 390 Husky ('79).  The difference was unbelievable!  As we'd come out of a corner on some dirt road, I would down-shift once, and sometimes even twice, while he stayed in 5th and 6th gear the whole time.  He never revved the bike up the whole day except once, and when he did that it was like watching the DeLorean in Back to the Future take off.  Every single turn, he'd just roll on the throttle and I'd hear this little "ddeeerrrrt" sound off to the side as he kept up with me.  When we got off maybe 15 miles later, he calmly said, "that was fun" while I clawed madly at my backpack to find something, anything to drink!  I was bloody exhausted!  Then, later in the day, we're going up this big rocky sort of mountain and the trail ended a little short of the top, so we had to lump along the rocks.  I couldn't stay behind him.  He had so much low-end that he could putt along at 5mph while I slipped the clutch until I thought it would catch fire.

That's why I want a 400 or 440 Maico now.  I need that kind of power in my life.  Besides, I think the '78 models are the prettiest bikes ever made.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline meger z

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2009, 03:54:30 PM »
check out the open class at the last round of the 2ts British  champs 09 cr 500 steel frame Greg Hansen won it .I like a lot of people think a 250 2t will beat them on a track but not so  :o :o the 500s leave them standing on the hills. 

Offline AFG

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2009, 04:47:06 PM »
You guys may have guessed, I really like open bikes. As far as lap times, yes on a tight technical track a 250 will usually turn a faster lap. On a more open(outdoor) track, I think 500's have an advantage. In the right hands a 2t open bike is a very impressive machine.Which brings me to the point of the average Joe. Some of these Joe's that complained about the open bikes being harder to ride fast than a 125,or 250 2t (high hp, hard hit,etc...) have bought 450 4T's in droves. Four strokes, but open bikes none the less. 58 horsepower is 58 horsepower. Maybe the answer might be a 400-440cc 2t. The 400 Maico's(77,79) I raced when I was a kid were a perfect balance. Great torque, good hp, very easy to go fast on.That's probably another topic altogether. I rode the 380 KTM made a few years back. I thought it was a good bike, but felt more like a really modded out 250 than an open bike. Very big midrange hit.

Offline JohnN

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2009, 06:53:25 AM »
Open bikes are awesome machines.

I typed out the article from Motocross Action Magazine about the demise of the 500cc Class. It's really a good read, check it out!

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/11/who-killed-the-500-class-and-where-is-the-body-buried/
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline AFG

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2009, 06:43:24 PM »
Thanks for putting it on the site. Mr. Weisel covered it well. He was very correct when he said everyone aspired to move up to the open class. I couldn't wait. After my first race on my Maico I felt like I had "made it". I was in. Everyone around here who raced open bikes were the fast guys. When you won in the open class there was no doubt of riding skills. There was always a mystique to the class. I guess that is why some of us still want a big 2T. I wonder indeed what the open class 2T's would be like, had they gotten the R&D from Yamaha, and Suzuki that went into their 450's. My guess is Chad Reed would be our latest 500cc National Champion. Thanks again everybody for chatting about it.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2009, 07:08:36 PM »
Well, at least someone is continuing to refine the breed.  I'm sure you already know that Maico is getting 501 power out if its 250s now, and the 500 has the balls of a Nitro dragster.  At the same time, I hear they put the power down in the classic, smooth Maico way without becoming peaky or explosive.  I would love to make an air-cooled version of that motor and put it in one of the sexy old bikes.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline dogger315

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2009, 09:50:29 AM »
I raced the 250 and open class starting in the early 90's.  I remember the first time I threw a leg
over my first CR500 and started it.  Just sitting there idling, the bike commanded respect.

As others have said, you had to adopt a different riding style to go fast.  3rd gear starts were
normal and throttle control, short shifting and finesse were all important.  The 500, were heavier
and had more flywheel inertia so they didn't want to turn as easily as the smaller bikes and with
60 hp on tap, you had to make sure you were pointed in the right direction before pulling the trigger.
While I would fan the clutch coming out of a corner on my 250 to get it into the powerband, I would
just dial in the power from idle on the 500 and be gone.

One of the things people haven't commented on is the effect Supercross had on the demise of the
open class.  With Supercross, you had a finite area to construct a track and the fans wanted to see
a lot of high flying, wooped out action.  None of this was suited to open class bikes and open class
Supercross had a very short life.  As Supercross gained popularity eventually surpassing Motocross
with the general (bike buying) public, the 250 became the premier class, and along with Suzuki and
 Yamaha's profit driven decision not to invest in a replacement for their air cooled dinosaurs, was
the beginning of the end for open class racing in my opinion.

I miss my 500s (sold my last one in '97), so much so in fact, that I fully intend to purchase a Service
 Honda CR500AF this Spring.  There aren't many tracks these days where you can really open one up
(the Nationals tracks are about it), but I will be content to rip up the trails with it.

dogger

Offline Hondacrrider

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Re: What killed the 500 class?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2009, 10:34:57 AM »
I'd rather be riding...