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Author Topic: KX500 vs KX450F  (Read 6579 times)

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Offline Coop

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KX500 vs KX450F
« on: October 26, 2010, 04:43:59 AM »
This article reads more like just a press release about "improved' the 450F is, but I figured I'd post it here anyway for discussion:

http://www.kawasaki.com.au/kawpublic_docs/TitleFight-KX500VSKX450F.pdf
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Offline Charles Owens

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2010, 05:30:05 AM »
Good Read, I'm pretty sure a 500 would put me in the ground. :)

Offline eprovenzano

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2010, 05:50:20 AM »
When I bought my KTM 300, I came really close to getting a KX500.  Since I'm more of a harescrambler than a MX guy, so I went for the 300. If more suited for the woods and trails than the 500...   (But I still want a 500)   8)
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Offline burn1986

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2010, 01:44:43 PM »
They need to test it against a Service Honda KX500AF. But we all know we'll never see that test. Another article to show everyone how wonderful and modern the new 4-strokes are, since it can beat the mighty KX500.

Offline Turquine

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2010, 02:04:23 PM »
Set the KX500 up in the right frame, with a decent rear tire so it can put that power to the ground, and it would easily eat that 450, provided you had a rider who knew how to use that extra power. Thing is though, compared to a more modern 250 2stroke, the old 500s were actually pretty underpowered and mildly tuned. Imagine a 500 built with similar specs as say, a KTM 250SX. That would make the KX 500 feel like a slug in comparison.

Anyhow, in the pdf article, at the end, it said that on the site, http://www.transmoto.com.au/ we'd be able to see the dyno test on the two machines. I'd really like that, but although I found a couple of videos of this test, I could not find a dyno report for either bike. Anyone know where it is?

Offline scotty dog

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2010, 02:28:34 PM »
I was flicking through Transmoto the other day at the newsagent and had a quick read of that comparo, the dyno readings between the two were so different, the 500 ate the 450 by close to 10 hp, also like they said, in a roling start drag race on a dirt road the 500 blew the 4t crap into the weeds........500cc of pure arm stretching grunt!!! Gotta love it!! :D
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Offline Turquine

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2010, 02:47:42 PM »
If you can recall, what were the hp and torque readings for the two, Scotty? I think the modern dynos give very different readings than the older ones I was used to. As close as you can recall, however, what were they?

Offline scotty dog

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2010, 02:50:18 PM »
I cant recall the torque mate but think the HP was like 48 for the 4t and 57 for the 500. I may be wrong but i think it is around that.
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Offline JETZcorp

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2010, 04:04:37 PM »
Quote
Or can they?  How does the old KX500 - arguably the most powerful of all the 500s - measure up to Kawasaki's latest Open-class motocrosser?

Arguably indeed!

I like the final picture, though.  The rider on the KX450F seems to be thinking, "Alright, let's haul this thing back into the air and impress some people."  The rider on the KX500 seems to be thinking, "Woah, I need to get this thing back on the ground!"


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Offline SachsGS

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2010, 04:32:18 PM »
Get them both out in the desert and see what happens. By 2000 there wasn't a great deal of moto DNA left in the KX500.

Offline ACMX

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2010, 08:58:53 PM »
Put the 500 engine in the 450 frame done deal.
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Offline Turquine

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2010, 11:19:21 PM »
Thanks, Scotty. The desert is where I'd prefer testing the two myself, Sachs. There and on extremely steep and high sand dune hills. In such situations, given optimum gearing on both machines, the 2stroke would own the thumper with ease, that one, or any other. The KX 500 owned Baja as long as Kawasaki chose to compete there, and still would, if they made the model and stood behind it.

As I see it. say KTM built a 6 speed, 450, just like their 300 2stroke only bigger, you'd have a very ride-able, controllable 2stroke, which would blow away any 450 4stroke, and probably even beat an old CR or KX 500 through the gears as well. You'd have a motor that would do either moto or enduro equally well depending  on your style, and it would take no new research or development to build. You could scream it in the desert, or lug it like a trials machine in the woods, or anything in between including motocross. I'm positive if KTM or somebody built such a machine, they'd sell them almost instantly. Think about it. If you tried the reverse, build a 300 4stroke bike to match a KTM 300, you simply couldn't do it. It could never be as versatile, reliable, etc.

Why is Maico the only manufacturer to build a real open class 2stroke? KTM could certainly do it at a big profit. Why they won't, is a mystery to me. It saddens me that you cannot buy a new 450 or 500 2stroke these days the way you can say, a 300. Sure, a Maico, if you can find it and afford it, but that shouldn't be one's only option other than buying an old bike and rebuilding it up to modern specs.

Even if they didn't allow such a machine to compete on MX tracks against 450 thumpers, I'll wager it would still outsell them. Play riders would buy it simply because it would be considerably more powerful than a 450 4stroke, far more reliable and less expensive to maintain. It would out acclerate, out climb and therefore, outsell the 450 thumper. It would also be very easy to ride, fast or slow, for these lazy people who have gotten used to smoother, 4stroke type powerbands and cannot control explosive old 2strokes. I've never heard anyone say that a KTM 300 is difficult to handle due to its power delivery. Far from it, everyone seems to love it.  It can lug as well as any 400 4stroke and out accelerate them when called upon to do so. Imagine the exact same only 150 CCs larger, and proportionately more powerful! People don't like to use the word "conspiracy," but what else could it be? Everyone would win in such a situation. Riders would benefit and the factory would certainly make a profit. I just wish factories would build both types and let riders buy what they want.

Offline Turquine

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2010, 11:35:12 PM »
Something else occurred to me  when I read this quote from the pdf article, "the old KX500 - arguably the most powerful of all the 500s." That is arguable, but probably true of the Japanese 500s. I rather doubt the KX500 could have beaten the '82 KTM 495, or '95/'96 KTM 550, certain years of the Husky 500 CRs or the '83 Maico Sand Spider (properly tuned and geared). I guess this goes out to Maico International then. Without having to give away any trade secrets, can you or anyone else, for that matter, positively confirm or deny, that a new Maico 500 could beat a KX or CR 500 through the gears in a drag race? Does it have more power? I know, the 700 does, that isn't the question though. I'm not asking if it would win around a track, or if it has smoother power, am talking quantity here for those who really want to know. Can anyone guarantee that a new Maico 500 is more powerful than a KX 500. Also, I'm talking about max power, not low end, I mean given good traction, can it smoke a KX through the gears. I'd never shell out the money for one unless I knew they could guarantee that "unequivocally."

Offline SwapperMX

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2010, 01:59:00 AM »
You guys need to check out the comparo that Motocross Action did with the KX 500. They did use a Service Honda(Kawasaki) KX500AF, on a long term test, and one of the ex pros went and raced it. He was consistently 2 seconds a lap faster on the 500 over his KX450 lap times. He also claimed he felt slower on the 500, and that is was easier to ride than the 450. Work that out. He was still going way faster.

Also, that Transmoto test, using Peter Meltons old KX500 race bike for the test, was not quite a true test, as many parts were missing off that bike, as the bike had sat in Whaley's shed for 10 years and all the good bits had been stripped off it by mates of Brett's, and they had to use standard stuff to put back it back together. I told him they should have used his KX 500 race bike from 2000 when they had transplanted the 500 motor into the 2000 model KX250 chassis. They weren't able to organise that bike in time. Also that track was hardpack and super slick, and would have been a real struggle to punt a basically standard KX 500 around for many laps. Pete did mention that he had a blast riding that bike again.
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Offline burn1986

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Re: KX500 vs KX450F
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2010, 05:52:06 AM »
Definitely agree with Turquine and Swapper. It will be awesome when and if Maico comes out and we can get a test of the Maico 320, KTM 300, TM300. I can't remember if Husky is making a 300 or not.