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Offline SachsGS

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KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2013, 04:39:19 AM »
I think the 170cc EFI Derbi provides a noticeable and reliable improvement in performance over a standard road issue GPR125.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Jeram

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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2013, 11:01:34 AM »
Lets put this in perspective, there is an enourmous difference between an asian 50cc commuter and a motocross bike.

The 50cc scooter does not require good throttle reponse due to its small power output and CVT transmission.
With these scooters it is WOT or nothing otherwise you dont go anywhere.

Also the 50cc scooters are already direct injected using currect technology, I've riden an Apirilia DI-TECH 50cc scooter. It was pretty ****, but fun to see how far I could get with half a liter in the tank.
(it was pretty damn far!)

These scooters are already available in most countries and companies such as Athena are trying to make it more affordable to that they can be installed on budget commuters for the asian market.


This compared to 2T offroad DFI, they are a wholly different.

The 50cc scooters are incredibly efficient at the cost of performance and throttle response



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline 2T Institute

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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2013, 12:39:25 PM »
I think the 170cc EFI Derbi provides a noticeable and reliable improvement in performance over a standard road issue GPR125.

When was that engine tuned by 'traditional' means? Trust me it isn't hard to improve on a standard restricted learner legal engine. Remember that is with a 36% capacity increase, which is not a validation of the EFI conversion. It is more a validation of "no replacement for displacement" axiom.
@ 2T Institute - I was refering to exhaust emissions, not amount of fuel used. The developing countries, with their growing need for resources and their lack of reulation and enforcement is where the problem lies and where solutions will be found. Across Europe and America, 2T are a very small part of the problem and 2T off-road machines don't even make up 1% of that. Of the 2T portion of the problem, first is the lawn and garden, then the marine industry. They pretty much eliminated the 2T from the roads in America and only places like Italy and Spain have much with the scooter industry.

@ msmola2002 - Nice pic. Now consider that a 2T motorcycle equals 20 of those cars. Each.

@ citabjocky - You'd be surprised how clean a Hummer is these days. They need a lot of fuel to push them around but what comes out the pipe is negligable in comparison to an unregulated, lead fuel burning, 2 cylinder snow mobile engine pushing a Tuk-Tuk in the PI.

What a crock of **** a Hummer has a fuel consumption of 24litres/100km in the city a performance 125 averages about 5-6litres/100km in city traffic. My old Honda H100 ran forever around town on a few litres of fuel. By volume alone a urban use 4WD/SUV  emits 4 times the hydrocarbons by volume alone regardless of the efficiency of the engine. The average family in SE Asia would be unlikely to afford to use any other form of transport than a motorcycle.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline gpnewhouse7

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KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2013, 03:02:10 PM »
I think the 170cc EFI Derbi provides a noticeable and reliable improvement in performance over a standard road issue GPR125.

When was that engine tuned by 'traditional' means? Trust me it isn't hard to improve on a standard restricted learner legal engine. Remember that is with a 36% capacity increase, which is not a validation of the EFI conversion. It is more a validation of "no replacement for displacement" axiom.
@ 2T Institute - I was refering to exhaust emissions, not amount of fuel used. The developing countries, with their growing need for resources and their lack of reulation and enforcement is where the problem lies and where solutions will be found. Across Europe and America, 2T are a very small part of the problem and 2T off-road machines don't even make up 1% of that. Of the 2T portion of the problem, first is the lawn and garden, then the marine industry. They pretty much eliminated the 2T from the roads in America and only places like Italy and Spain have much with the scooter industry.

@ msmola2002 - Nice pic. Now consider that a 2T motorcycle equals 20 of those cars. Each.

@ citabjocky - You'd be surprised how clean a Hummer is these days. They need a lot of fuel to push them around but what comes out the pipe is negligable in comparison to an unregulated, lead fuel burning, 2 cylinder snow mobile engine pushing a Tuk-Tuk in the PI.

What a crock of **** a Hummer has a fuel consumption of 24litres/100km in the city a performance 125 averages about 5-6litres/100km in city traffic. My old Honda H100 ran forever around town on a few litres of fuel. By volume alone a urban use 4WD/SUV  emits 4 times the hydrocarbons by volume alone regardless of the efficiency of the engine. The average family in SE Asia would be unlikely to afford to use any other form of transport than a motorcycle.


Did he ever say the hummer used less fuel? No. He said the hummer had much cleaner emissions which I am 100% sure will be true due to the amount of technology that goes into all modern cars these days, like I said earlier we have 7.5l diesels in our tractors that produce no smoke at all, just steam. So while my 125 will drink less fuel it most definitely won't produce less emissions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline msmola2002

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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2013, 03:46:26 PM »
There are many kinds of emissions. smoke is a particulate emission. To say that a diesel truck only emits steam is crap.

CH4 + 2 O2 ? CO2 + 2 H2O + energy

Buttload of CO2 there...

the more fuel burned the more CO2 emitted. yeah the stinker may emit more particulate, but if it is only burning a fraction of the hydrocarbon it physically can not produce as much CO2, NOx or any other kind of emission.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline SachsGS

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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2013, 03:57:11 PM »
I would think that the mere existence of a "backyard" converted 2T street motorcycle would be sufficient validation of EFI, a transitory step to DI. The fact that a private individual has taken upon themselves the time, expense and effort to convert a two cycle motorcycle to a more modern system of fuel delivery would indicate to me that the acknowledgement of the need to keep the 2T instep with current technologies is more wide spread then I would have thought.

The achilles heel of the modern 4T is it's complexity (cost),physical size and weight, power generation per unit time and parasitic power losses (camshafts, oil control rings,oil pumps etc.). A DI 2T can match or exceed a 4T$'s fuel efficiency without any of any of these limitations (save perhaps the DI itself). DI 2T snowmobiles are already displacing the recently arrived 4T sleds, so it can happen commercially on a large scale. 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline citabjockey

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KTM 2 stroke fuel injection
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2013, 04:35:13 PM »
+1

I would think that the mere existence of a "backyard" converted 2T street motorcycle would be sufficient validation of EFI, a transitory step to DI. The fact that a private individual has taken upon themselves the time, expense and effort to convert a two cycle motorcycle to a more modern system of fuel delivery would indicate to me that the acknowledgement of the need to keep the 2T instep with current technologies is more wide spread then I would have thought.

The achilles heel of the modern 4T is it's complexity (cost),physical size and weight, power generation per unit time and parasitic power losses (camshafts, oil control rings,oil pumps etc.). A DI 2T can match or exceed a 4T$'s fuel efficiency without any of any of these limitations (save perhaps the DI itself). DI 2T snowmobiles are already displacing the recently arrived 4T sleds, so it can happen commercially on a large scale.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
Yamaha CT3, RT3, MX125, SC500, Toy Prius, Diesel F250 (it all balances out)

Offline Jeram

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« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2013, 03:29:59 AM »
Well the Aprilia SR50 (DFI) consumes just  2L of fuel per 100km of city riding, it also consumes just 1.2L of premix every 1200km.

Combine that with direct injection tha prevents unburnt particles from escaping out the exhaust (particlate emmissions) and 12000km service intervals and we have a winner.
I think that will beat most four strokes in terms of overall emmissions.


On another note, I have been following that EFI Derbi for many years on the 125ccsportsbikes.com forum.
It was more trouble that it was worth, it took 30% more capacity, a pipe and porting to get that increased power output.
I guarentee that if you put a PWK carb on it you would make more power at all RPMS.


But that doesnt mean that FI is crap, it just means that you really need to know what your doing to make it work better than a carb.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2013, 09:33:10 AM »
I would hope that whom ever makes a DFI system for motocross knows what they are doing...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
08 Speed Bird Quad 110, 08 KTM 144, 04 Suzuki LT-Z400, 03 Gas Gas EC, 300,97 Honda CR144, 96 Husky Boy 50, 88 Husky 400WR, 86 Honda CR125R, 80 Can-Am MX6 400, 75 Husky 360CR, 75 Husky 175CC, 73 Penton Jackpiner 175, 72 Husky 250CR, 72 Husky 125, 72 Rickman-Zundapp 125, (2) 71 Bultaco Pursang Mk

Offline Jeram

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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2013, 10:32:28 AM »
I would hope that whom ever makes a DFI system for motocross knows what they are doing...

Maybe bimota should have another crack  :P


It still perplexes me why BRP doesnt just put Can-Am back into the MX market with a DI bike based on half of one of their sled engines.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline SachsGS

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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2013, 02:41:00 PM »
One reason - no money in it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2013, 04:19:27 PM »
I would buy it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
08 Speed Bird Quad 110, 08 KTM 144, 04 Suzuki LT-Z400, 03 Gas Gas EC, 300,97 Honda CR144, 96 Husky Boy 50, 88 Husky 400WR, 86 Honda CR125R, 80 Can-Am MX6 400, 75 Husky 360CR, 75 Husky 175CC, 73 Penton Jackpiner 175, 72 Husky 250CR, 72 Husky 125, 72 Rickman-Zundapp 125, (2) 71 Bultaco Pursang Mk

Offline TMKIWI

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« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2013, 06:09:17 AM »
Maybe bimota should have another crack  :P

Hell no. :-[

It still perplexes me why BRP doesnt just put Can-Am back into the MX market with a DI bike based on half of one of their sled engines.

I was told on the quite a few years ago at a BRP dealer conference ( 06 I think ) that it was being looked at , But then the GFC happened.
Never heard about it again. :(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline Jeram

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« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2013, 06:16:14 AM »
Maybe bimota should have another crack  :P

Hell no. :-[

It still perplexes me why BRP doesnt just put Can-Am back into the MX market with a DI bike based on half of one of their sled engines.

I was told on the quite a few years ago at a BRP dealer conference ( 06 I think ) that it was being looked at , But then the GFC happened.
Never heard about it again. :(

If you put 2 and 2 together in a logical manor than you can deduct that

The GFC killed new tech two strokes
Honda hates two strokes

therefore

HONDA WAS BEHIND THE GFC






I beleive!





sorry, I couldnt help myself  :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline TMKIWI

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« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2013, 07:12:58 AM »
Honda was also behind the JFK assaination. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough