Messages

106

General Two Stroke Talk / Re: Interview with Rick Sieman, founding fathers of motojournalism (Dirt Bike)

« on: February 04, 2010, 06:24:27 AM »

Don't get me wrong, two strokes can and do have problems as well. They do require maintenance to run the best they can. There is one huge difference. There are two-strokes that are 10 years, 20 years and more that are still running with a minimum of rebuilds. I'm not so sure that you see many 5 to 10 year old modern four-strokes all that much.

I know where I would rather invest my money!

The mx 4 strokes are being sold as "race-ready". Not "take it easy on the trails" ready. the engines are being asked to perform in an unnatural way and the maintenance intervals and costs clearly reveal this. the 2 stroke is an inherant race engine and is far more suited to the kind of demands that modern motocross places on it.

107

General Two Stroke Talk / Re: Interview with Rick Sieman, founding fathers of motojournalism (Dirt Bike)

« on: February 03, 2010, 12:09:04 PM »

One thing comes to mind - can you imagine if a 500cc 2 stroke was tuned to the point that its top end only lasted 15-30 hours and cost $3,000 to rebuild? the magazines would be ALL OVER it! Of course, that special engine would probably be putting out over 80hp ;-)

108

General Two Stroke Talk / Re: Interview with Rick Sieman, founding fathers of motojournalism (Dirt Bike)

« on: February 02, 2010, 08:46:53 PM »

The old guy is bitching about 4 stroke bikes and the AMA. Friggin awesome interview!
http://feeds.feedburner.com/thestevematthesshow
Click on
The Steve Matthes Show - Rick "Super Hunky" Sieman
Also start listening to it at 42:20.

 

Wow, he expresses a lot of the frustration that we feel, and dishes some real dirt on the AMA and modern 4 strokes. I especially liked the part where he describes the rebuild interval on a typical 450f - 15 hours for a pro, 30 hours for a casual rider. They've really become unaffordable, and you can feel his frustration. I think he gets a bit carried away with belittling the way the young riders dress, i think that's a generational thing more than anything, but everything else was right on.

109

General Two Stroke Talk / It's gotta be a 450

« on: January 31, 2010, 07:11:53 AM »

The biggest in-your-face statement on the superiority of the 2 stroke, the final "I Told You So" that no one could ignore would be to roll out a 450cc 2 stroke. Think about it for a second. Magazines would HAVE to include it in any 450 shootout, if for no other reason than to see how it compares to the supposed fastest mx bikes in the world.
Service Honda, Maico, TM could make their own bold statement to the racing world by ignoring class rules, similiar to what Honda did when they introduced the CRF150R. The CR500 cylinder could be de-sleeved a few millimeters and re-badged as a CR450AF, as could the Maico. Those 3 little numbers would send a stunning message to the world.

Of course, in the pathetic state of denial that the entire AMA body is in, they'd just say that the 450 2T was a "cheater" LOL. The truth hurts

110

General Two Stroke Talk / Re: This is a rant, and it's LONG, LONG, LONG....

« on: January 25, 2010, 08:01:24 PM »

Thought i'd add some thoughts to Jim's posts. My responses are in bold

Hello Everyone,

I can only speak for myself here, but I don't want a direct injection 2 stroke UNLESS it's going to make something available to us that we don't already have. We don't have any road-going 2 stroke street bikes with greater than mid-80's technology. Most with mid-70's.
If it means NEW RD350's, RZ350's, S2's, S3's, H1's, H2's, Suzuki GT's instead of GS's and things like that, then I'm probably into it, until I have the opportunity to buy one of the originals. If all we'd be getting out of it is more homogenized versions of what we have already, then forget it. I've heard that D.I. makes a 2 stroke run a little more like a 4 stoke... That's all I have to hear to say "I'll Pass.." for the time being. Please go to youtube and type in Ski-doo 600 e-tec. Except for a steady idle, no smoke, low emissions and easy on gas, she's ALL 2 stroke. The screamer you know and love.
Because I love the way all my current bikes run right now, just the way they are... What more could D.I. bring to a YZ250 that it doesn't already have? A smaller gas tank and a programmable power curve for starters

Would it produce better throttle response? Not likely, as the throttle response is already just short of telepathic. It absolutely would. The DI would fill in any and all gaps of the power curve. Even things you wouldn't feel seat-of-the-pants
Would it make the bike easier to start? Puh-Leeeeze..... Again, go to youtube. There's a clip of two ski-doo e-tecs that were in cold storage for 2 months. They start right up. immediately. Even a YZ250 would take a few kicks after sitting all winter.
Would it be any easier to maintain? I don't guess so... Fair enough, but this technology is about 90 years younger than the old. When roadracing changed to all 2 strokes in the 60's and 70's tuners complained about changing pistons and rings all the time.
Would it make the bike lighter? I don't know, is one of those systems really lighter than the carb that's already on there, you think? Subtract the weight of a gallon of gas and replacement it with some electronic components. I bet it's a wash.
One of the most enjoyable aspects of riding a motorcycle is the act of metering the fuel mixture flow into the engine. A carburetor is a fairly simple device that makes this a very immediate, in your face experience. The rider has un moderated control of his machine. He can make a mess of everything or that thing can sing motown down, it's all up to the guy pulling on the throttle cable. A throttle is a throttle. Direct injection only changes what happens when the rider gives the pistons some fuel to work with. The rider would still be 100% in control.

I just don't want to see another step in the direction of BORING, that's all. 2 strokes are the most exciting motorcycles to experience, by far, no doubt about it. Wallowing WAY behind that excitement is the rather bland and predictable experience of riding 4 stroke motorcycles. Yes, you still get down the track/trail/road on your mount, but they're not going to start rewriting the menu at Spark's any time soon, just because you can survive on baby food. Electric motorcycles aren't quite worth a mention in my opinion except maybe to demonstrate just exactly HOW boring and emasculated the experience of motorcycling can be made, for people who go to hell....    

When a significant addition to the complexity of a machine is made, the gains should be relative in value. If not they're not worth the added complexity in my opinion. I believe that in the case of the 4 stroke bikes, EFI was worth checking out because there were frustrating problems to be overcome with regard to the way the bikes ran. But even in that case, there have been losses to go along with the gains. They have engines with neater manners, but riders keep saying they lack the raw power of the carbureted bikes. When the hype settles, I'm not sure EFI is really exciting news unless you're a service department, or a guy who rides in Florida at the beginning of every week, then Pike's Peak at the end of every week. The systems are dependable but should there be a failure, are you going to fix it yourself? How were bikes of your machine's type working before EFI? Not very well? Then it's only right to go for it! If your bike was working EXTREMELY well with a carb, then there's a chance you'll end up as a fist prize sucker if you let someone replace a slide, needle, and a small assortment of ingeniously arranged orifices with a fuel injection system.  

My point is that if I was bummed out because 1/2 the time when I went to throttle my bike above idle, it flamed out like a carbureted 4 stroke does sometimes, or if it liked to occasionally stall in a corner and feel like it just dropped anchor as the rear wheel locked and dragged, maybe I'd be looking for an alternative fueling system... But, since I can't even remember the last time the fueling system on ANY 2 stroke has ever let me down, I'm just not looking. No thanks, I'll just keep my Mentos box of 70 cent brass jets and I'm fine.

REGARDING THE ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS...
I don't feel obligated to fret over the exhaust emissions of relatively tiny little dirt bikes, or any other bikes for that matter. Never have, never will. At displacements between 1/8 and 1/2 liter, I really don't think our bikes would be Mother Nature's biggest worry even if we each triple jumped a set of beached whales and landed on a rainforest telethon while carrying a sack of seal clubs, pipelines, and drilling rigs up north for hunting season. I've heard the chorus line of Kashi Gobblers, and Transworld KoolAid Kross California types singing about "Dirty", or "Smokey" 2 stroke engines, but I think we 2 stroke riders already do a lot to help our bikes run relatively clean.

Since our bikes use tuned exhaust and power valves (Except on those old Maicos and TS's) in conjunction with the intake to charge the cylinder from both upstream and downstream, some of the power band is quite efficient and unburned fuel loss is minimal. That's the part of the power band every rider seeks out and spends most of their time with, the sweet spot where the bike is most responsive. The inefficient part of the power band is the part that feels less responsive to the rider because the cylinder charge is less than ideal and riders can feel the lost potential, so we don't spend much time there.

Emissions tests can be run with all different types of test parameters, with a vast spectrum of results possible from the same engine. All engines have rpm ranges of peak efficiency for both power output and fuel usage/emissions. There are very large differences in efficiency, regarding both power output and fuel usage/emissions as a 2 stroke engine goes through it's rpm range, but that's a big part of why we love them. This also means you can test one and get either a very bad emissions sample, or a very good one, and all you have to do is change the rpm, engine load, or throttle position to get almost whatever result you're looking for.

I tune rich on purpose to keep engine temps down, my engines last for ever, and the smoke is just fine with me.

Thanks,

Jim

111

General Two Stroke Talk / Re: Josh Green to compete is WEC for 2010

« on: January 19, 2010, 03:48:42 PM »

i notice a correlation here - whenever 300cc 2 strokes are allowed to compete against the 450's, they win! I'm not sure about the regulations but enduro is the only one right? That extra 50cc is huge. i bet if 300's were allowed in Supercross it would change things.

112

General Two Stroke Talk / Re: New KTM 350.. WHat you guys think about it?

« on: January 18, 2010, 06:17:05 PM »

not to scare anyone, but in 2008 when MotoGP went from 990cc to 800cc, the rules were changed to BAN 2 strokes outright. That's right, they outlawed them! They knew the 990's were too powerful fot the 500's, but i guess they were afraid some privateer team might dust off an NSR500 and smoke the 800's. In motocross, a move to 350cc 4 strokes could perhaps spell the end of 250cc 2 strokes. Clearly the AMA has an agenda which doesn't include privateers, so i could definitely see some type of legislation that ensures a 250 2 stroke has no chance to race against a 350 4T. That would only happen through a ban. A 350cc rule could be real bad for the future of 250 2 strokes.

If i remember correctly in 2002 or 2003 Dirtrider magazine had their "10 Best" awards, and tongue-in-cheek awarded the YZ426F Best Workout Bike because it "gave the rider such a workout trying to keep up with the 2 strokes". So i'm thinking a bike only 100cc more than a 250 2T would have a VERY difficult time winning.

113

General Two Stroke Talk / Re: Interesting Stuff On Vital MX

« on: January 17, 2010, 10:05:15 AM »

Interesting replies. I especially liked the one who said the whole "handicap" concept made him look at 4 strokes differently now. If just ONE announcer at a Supercross race would mention that, if just ONE mx magazine could use that angle when reviewing a 4 stroke, it would start seeping into the consciousness of prospective 4 stroke buyers. I know i sure as hell wouldn't want to ride a bike that needed a "handicap" 

If you want to look at the displacement disparity in yet another way, think about if AMA rules forced 125cc 4 strokes against 250cc 2 strokes. Think about that for a moment, it's absolutely laughable right? Unthinkable right? Yet it's perfectly ok the other way around. Just goes to show what a superior engine the 2 stroke is. 

114

General Two Stroke Talk / Re: Husqvarna X-torq two stroke engine! 4 stroke killer??? yes!

« on: January 17, 2010, 08:27:12 AM »

ok it's a little tough for me to grasp and i watched the video in slow-mo about 10 times, but am i understanding this correctly that:
the additional air that is pumped into the top end of the transfer port acts as a clearing/evacuating agent for the spent gases residing in the combustion chamber, thereby not using the fuel/air mixture to do the clearing, hence no unburned fuel/air mixture exits the combustion chamber? If so, this is PURE GENIUS!!! i mean this retains ALL of the two stroke's simplicity and light weight, and apparently adds torque. and i noticed little to no smoke exiting that chainsaw. Emissions could be tweaked by the air transfer/timing groove in the piston!

The only thing we have to worry about now is that whoever patented this doesn't make the licensing rights cost out of this world 

115

General Two Stroke Talk / 4 stroke "Handicap"

« on: January 14, 2010, 11:22:36 PM »

hand-i-cap: a race or other contest in which certain disadvantages or advantages of weight, distance, time, etc., are placed upon competitors to equalize their chances of winning.

The totally unfair 4 stroke displacement advantage should be described as exactly what it is - a handicap. That's the word i'm using from now on, and with any luck it catches on and is a source of shame for the 4 stroke riders who use it LOL. What say people?

116

General Two Stroke Talk / Re: Direct Injection - for and against

« on: January 14, 2010, 03:41:52 PM »

tell me why, if this "technology" exists, why no one is banking on delivering it to the market.

Well firstly Orbital have been doing this longer than anyone so they're not only streets ahead of everyone else, they have a list of patents out on it and related componentry as long as your driveway. So it'll be very difficult for anybody to bring anything decent directly injected to the game without their assistance.

Secondly, they're not soft enough to roll over and let the Japanese walk all over them and they've obviously taken a lesson from Mr Kaden at MZ all those years ago and have made sure not to give them the chance to steal it either!

Against that, anything they've been involved with has worked and worked  bloody well. I see no reason to doubt that an off-road motorcycle using a DI 2-stroke engine and their know-how would be any different.

Actually, BRP's E-tec is more advanced than Orbitals engine. E-tec's injectors do all the work while Orbital has an external air pump to assist. The difference is that the E-tec's voice-coil injectors can work at much higher rpm than Orbitals. The Orbital engine is said to be extremely reliable, as is the E-tec. Madscientist i appreciate your input but i've been around 2 strokes for 40 years or so and don;t like being lectured to. The fact is there's a worldwide effort to eradicate 2 strokes because of their emissions, and the eradication has taken hold. You don;t really believe that a sudden awakening to the benefits of good carb tuning is going to reverse things do you??

117

General Two Stroke Talk / Re: Direct Injection - for and against

« on: January 13, 2010, 08:41:08 PM »

i can't discuss this subject without being a little schizophrenic.

On one hand i dearly love all the great qualities of the traditional 2 stroke - the whole visceral appeal of the sound, smell, feel, look, cost, ease of maintenance, getting so much from so little, etc. they are just the perfect egnine, imo.

On the other, if 2 stroke mx bikes don't change with the times i can't imagine they would stick around. And i'm not talking about emissions, i'm talking advancements in performance and technology. Half the remaining 2 strokes are based on old designs. It's simply a matter of time before the technology just gets too old to compete at any level. the writing is on the wall and carburetors are clearly on the way out. sad but true. Small manufacturers like Maico and Ossa are keeping the flame going, but it will take a much larger effort using more advanced technology. If the YZ250 had a complete revamp and at least adopted EFI it would be a start. Aren't there any Big 4 executives who are passionate two stroke lovers like us?

One thing that i'm not schizophrenic about is the desire to see displacement parity brought back to motocross. Nothing that needs a handicap to win should ever be considered the top form of racing. the worst is the people in charge who pretend there's nothing wrong. I can't express the level of disgust i have for them.

118

General Two Stroke Talk / Direct Injection - for and against

« on: January 10, 2010, 02:41:00 PM »

I previously believed the only way 2 strokes were going to see a rebirth (since legislation won't help us) was through direct injection. This is not to say that the rules in motocross couldn't be changed to allow existing carb'd bikes equal displacement and therefore a rebirth that way, but as far as 2 strokes becoming mainstream again, i thought it had to be via direct injection. But after watching the Rotax E-Tec videos over and over  http://www.ski-doo.com/brphtml/skidooenginetech/en/Index.htm it occured to me that this kind of technology - which would be unbelievably awesome and revolutionary for a streetbike - is exactly what we DON'T need for the dirt. Everyone complains about the high entry fee and nightmare rebuilds of 4 stroke mx racing. Well the E-Tec is LOADED with technology and expensive bits - an ECM that is cooled by fuel, high tech fuel pump, complex injectors, complex oil pump, intricate exhaust valve. Bits tend to fail no matter how well built they are. I'd like to keep it simple and inexpensive. Perhaps use the lower tech Semi-direct injection or Ficht systems - greener than carbs and very frugal with fuel. We aren't talking about bikes that need to pass emission standards anyways.   
The one added expense i'd like to see become standard on all 2 stroke mx bikes regardless of fuel delivery is Oil Injection. A well designed system would add maybe a pound or so, and since it would borrow from existing technology, wouldn't add much to the cost of the bike. But it would eliminate yet another reason why people should go 4 stroke (yes i know about frequent oil changes on mx 4 strokes). And less people buying 4 stoke is how we get our beloved 2 stroke back.
Thoughts?

119

Photos & Videos / Re: 2stroke youtube findings

« on: December 08, 2009, 03:39:10 PM »

ktm85 helmet cam

Practise At Axle (BE)

can you tell me which helmet camera you are using? I'm trying to get a setup for myself that is steady and clear like yours. Thanks!

Chris2T