Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: Chris2T on July 27, 2010, 06:46:27 AM
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It's been decreed that it is UNFAIR to race equal displacement 4 stroke versus 2 stroke.
4 strokes, given a displacement handicap to compensate for the unfairness, dominate 2 strokes.
The domination is so complete that it has caused the near extinction of the 2 stroke machine
Riders, Magazines, and Manufacturers then trumpet the superiority of the handicapped 4 stroke.
In summary: 4 strokes cannot win on even terms, but when given a handicap are lauded for their superiority = PRETZEL LOGIC
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(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo280/Skarp_photo/PretzelLogic.jpg)
Chris - you have boiled it down to it's essence. It's simple and easy when looked at that way.
Highly touting an unfair advantage has become the norm. Pretty sad.
A lot of folks are wearing these...
(http://www.bmbx.org/wp-content/gallery/warvadal/warvadal_-_rose_colored_glasses_front.jpg)
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Chris you have it right BUT, we can build a 4t with the same power output as a 2t with equal displacement....its life exspectdency would be about 30 mins of run time but it can be done.
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Chris you have it right BUT, we can build a 4t with the same power output as a 2t with equal displacement....its life exspectdency would be about 30 mins of run time but it can be done.
But this is why us two-stroke fans are so upset about the lopsided rules that are currently in place in Pro racing!!
We are not asking that they stop making four-strokes or that they should be banned, we are only looking for a fair race. Straight up displacement is fair. An 80 to 100% displacement advantage is not fair.
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No kidding, I hear four stroke guys constantly brag about new superior technology, Yet cling to the displacement handicap.
With equal displacement you would see the good in both two and four stroke.
I don't hate the fours, I just prefer the lighter weight and higher power of the two stroke.
Some guys will always prefer the smother power and traction of the four stroke.
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Chris you have it right BUT, we can build a 4t with the same power output as a 2t with equal displacement....its life exspectdency would be about 30 mins of run time but it can be done.
I'd have to say I don't agree with that. :-X I don't think it is possible. The 4 stroke would basically have to run at 2 times the current 2 stroke engine RPM to match HP. No 4 stroke MX bike could run at 24,000 RPM in my opinion, for even 30 minutes.
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Chris you have it right BUT, we can build a 4t with the same power output as a 2t with equal displacement....its life exspectdency would be about 30 mins of run time but it can be done.
I'd have to say I don't agree with that. :-X I don't think it is possible. The 4 stroke would basically have to run at 2 times the current 2 stroke engine RPM to match HP. No 4 stroke MX bike could run at 24,000 RPM in my opinion, for even 30 minutes.
There are more factors than how often the engine fires, higher compression ratio, and Volumetric efficiency are in the four strokes favor.
It would still be a hand grenade though :D
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Chris you have it right BUT, we can build a 4t with the same power output as a 2t with equal displacement....its life exspectdency would be about 30 mins of run time but it can be done.
I'd have to say I don't agree with that. :-X I don't think it is possible. The 4 stroke would basically have to run at 2 times the current 2 stroke engine RPM to match HP. No 4 stroke MX bike could run at 24,000 RPM in my opinion, for even 30 minutes.
But it could be fun to watch if only for a few minutes!! ;D ;D
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The 4-st. has advantages I think everyone knows what they are. But that doesn,t mean you can,t beat them. Example sunday I rode on a friday night supercross track for the 1st time, he has 22 friday night races, there are riders that just practice and race there, it,s slippery- thick dust on top of clay-4-st. track. At the end of the day and after a crash, that put my chin and injured my hand in the ground. A vet expert passed me on a straight away, so I show him how 125,s do it and pass him on a flat right corner, then 90 ft. jump, a corner and a jump I lead him, he passes me back on a 100 ft. plus table top, I couldn,t clear on my stock 06 cr125, the next bowl turn I pass him on the inside and cut his outside line off, I left him room. We went back and forth for 3 laps, all the passes were very clean, both of us are just having a fun battle. I think it comes down to seat time, who ever is in riding shape, and can hold a consistent pace and on lap 4 or 5 put a break away lap in and run riders down, your the man at the local level. It,s alot more work on a 125, constantly shifting, clutching, ride the rear brake and front brake a little, to get the wheels to stick, while wfo in 3rd gear to get thru a fast slippery sweeper.
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Sorry the double post, he was on a 450 Suzuki. On friday night the track had something diff., a sunday district points, and tripplecross points. He lead vet a for 2.5 laps, so he,s a solid rider, the 125 coming in and tru corners is alot faster. Like the old phrase you corner for dough and jump for show.
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Nice Story!! I love it...
The thing is when you get into the Pro ranks, the displacement advantage takes a step up. When you have the best racers in the world, on the best machines that money can supply and put them up against a journeyman Pro with some work done to his bike, you really start to see the advantages of displacement.
Unfortunately many consumers base their bike buying choices on what they see winning races at the Pro level. You can beat them over and over at the local level without making a dent. In fact many times you can hear the four-stroke doubters say that the two-stroke racer is cheating!!! How's that for a turn around?
By sustaining a displacement difference, we cause a boatload of problems. As can be seen by this simple example, the cheater bike is thought to be better and when the bike it's supposed to beat easily (cause it's smaller) actually beats the bigger one, they claim they are cheating....
Were the rules equal displacement, that silly argument would have no basis....
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Yeah I agree John, the national tracks are totaly different, and the skill of the riders. It,s been done at the top level, in 03 Pichon on a RM250 spanked Everts on his 450 the 1st 3 rounds. One race was in Holland , Everts is prob. the best sand racer ever, and Pichon ran him down, battled, then pulled away. I have the dvd, when Pichon caught him, Everts tried to knock Pichon down, you could see Pichon was pissed, and went after him, of course Pichon passed him in a corner.
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Didnt RC give everts a riding lesson at an MXdN? Was it 05? RC was on a CR 250, Everts was on his YZ 450. I might have the year wrong but i remember seeing the pics a while back....
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The 4-st. has advantages I think everyone knows what they are. But that doesn,t mean you can,t beat them. Example sunday I rode on a friday night supercross track for the 1st time, he has 22 friday night races, there are riders that just practice and race there, it,s slippery- thick dust on top of clay-4-st. track. At the end of the day and after a crash, that put my chin and injured my hand in the ground. A vet expert passed me on a straight away, so I show him how 125,s do it and pass him on a flat right corner, then 90 ft. jump, a corner and a jump I lead him, he passes me back on a 100 ft. plus table top, I couldn,t clear on my stock 06 cr125, the next bowl turn I pass him on the inside and cut his outside line off, I left him room. We went back and forth for 3 laps, all the passes were very clean, both of us are just having a fun battle. I think it comes down to seat time, who ever is in riding shape, and can hold a consistent pace and on lap 4 or 5 put a break away lap in and run riders down, your the man at the local level. It,s alot more work on a 125, constantly shifting, clutching, ride the rear brake and front brake a little, to get the wheels to stick, while wfo in 3rd gear to get thru a fast slippery sweeper.
What up with the SPACE between every words???????? LOL using a Cambodian keyboard or what???? lol
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Didnt RC give everts a riding lesson at an MXdN? Was it 05? RC was on a CR 250, Everts was on his YZ 450. I might have the year wrong but i remember seeing the pics a while back....
Remember Pastrana at the nations with his mighty 125???
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When you have the best racers in the world, on the best machines that money can supply and put them up against a journeyman Pro with some work done to his bike, you really start to see the advantages of displacement.
Slightly off topic, but I present you Johnny Oâ??Mara and the 1986 MXDN where he beat everybody except David Bailey. Oh yeah it was a 500/125 race and Johnny O was riding a 125... ;D
http://www.mxlarge.com/interview/2821-david-bailey-rick-johnson-and-johnny-o-mara-look-back-at-1986-maggiora-mx-of-nations (http://www.mxlarge.com/interview/2821-david-bailey-rick-johnson-and-johnny-o-mara-look-back-at-1986-maggiora-mx-of-nations)
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Didnt RC give everts a riding lesson at an MXdN? Was it 05? RC was on a CR 250, Everts was on his YZ 450. I might have the year wrong but i remember seeing the pics a while back....
Remember Pastrana at the nations with his mighty 125???
Yeah i do now!! HUGE down hill jumps over some French guy if i remember. ;D
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The only way to get the 2 stroke back on the tracks is to eliminate the 4 stroke! The manufacturers won't produce or R&D both. This is why AMA won't change the rules at pro level because they know it can happens. The sport is doomed.
This makes me smile :)
Jeremy McGrath Terrafirma 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YY56Dro0Oc&feature=related#)
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It seems I'm a little late to this particular party, but when we were talking about making an equal-displacement four-stroke match the power of a two-stroke, I know it can be done. For example, if you take Maico's claimed HP for their 500 (I'm using that number just because I have it memorized) the ratio of power to displacement is 134hp/L. But if you take a BMW S1000RR, that gives you 179 hp/L. Granted, that's a multi-cylinder engine so that's probably helping things out a bit for the Beamer.
But what we should remember is that the Beamer, even with multiple cylinders, has to rev way over 13 grand to make that kind of power, whilst the Maico is doing it at something like 8k. Also, brand loyalty aside, that's not exactly the craziest two-stroke available, it just happens to be a dirt bike that I knew the numbers for. Let's see what kind of power a four-cylinder two-stroke sport-bike motor would be like. Oh hey, looks like somebody (Suter Racing) have just that, and it's got 20hp more than the Beamer... and half the displacement.
Is it possible to make an ultimate four-stroke more powerful per unit displacement than a two-stroke? Does that mean it has more potential? Hell no. Now what I'd like is to see what would happen if you gave someone like Don Garlits 20 years to make the best top-fuel drag racing two-stroke he could. If the four-strokes are making 8,000hp now...
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The only way to get the 2 stroke back on the tracks is to eliminate the 4 stroke!
How can we do that???^^^^^^^
If you have a constructive idea, we should all be working towards that goal. The problem is that the manufacturers that we want to build two-stroke bikes for us are firmly entrenched in the four-stroke way of MX....
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what I have noticed in mx is it really is all the rider I know at the pro level it really does matter what bike your on I think us 2t riders really have to change the way we think. Like if your racing a two stroke you should almost never take the same line as a 4 we kind of have to hang it out there hold the gas on longer make some moves maybe we're not exactly comfortable making but when your at a disadvantage you gotta do it. I imagine you have to ride like ryan villopoto was on the clip some1 just posted of him on that 85 you could tell he didnt want that 250 getting around him chewin through gears, switching lines puttin his butt way over the back fender. You really just have to ride a 2t like you are pissed off at it
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Yeah, I think in any situation where you're at a power disadvantage, you have to be able to carry speed rather than generating speed. Because if you play the game of generating speed, the other guy who has the hardware to generate more speed is going to win. But if you can keep it screaming, hammer it through the corners and come out with a big exit speed, you can make up some of the gap. That was the advice given to 430 Husky riders when the wave of 490s hit, so I don't know if it applies so well to the current situation, but I think it should. That was a situation where you had a horsepower bike competing against torque bikes, and that sounds like today's 4T handicap to me.
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The only way to get the 2 stroke back on the tracks is to eliminate the 4 stroke! The manufacturers won't produce or R&D both. This is why AMA won't change the rules at pro level because they know it can happens. The sport is doomed.
This makes me smile :)
Jeremy McGrath Terrafirma 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YY56Dro0Oc&feature=related#)
That video is awesome I watched it countless times years ago. The most fun era in mx in my opinion, my friends and I trying to pull off tricks in our races, alot of laughs. Mc Grath races off road trucks now, for Johny Greaves-Monster team. Johny lives 20 minutes north of Green Bay,he has another house in Cali. They ride mx together along with John,s 16 yr. old kid. Before and after the truck season,John an x pro mx,r races mx, I,m Looking forward to racing him. I didn,t realize I put too much space in between, I just figured it,s easier to read, I,m 43 you know what they say,your eyes are the 1st thing to go.
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I thought it was the mind :P
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What,s a mind ? haha
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It seems I'm a little late to this particular party, but when we were talking about making an equal-displacement four-stroke match the power of a two-stroke, I know it can be done. For example, if you take Maico's claimed HP for their 500 (I'm using that number just because I have it memorized) the ratio of power to displacement is 134hp/L. But if you take a BMW S1000RR, that gives you 179 hp/L. Granted, that's a multi-cylinder engine so that's probably helping things out a bit for the Beamer.
I don't think using that comparison is very fair as it's comparing apples with oranges! The BMW is a super oversquare maximum horsepower multicylinder road machine with each cylinder displacing 250cc. To be fair it would be better to compare to an equivalent high performance road tuned 4 cylinder twostroke with 250cc cylinders which doesn't exist and if it did would probably be detuned just to be rideable. Closest I can see is the RS500GP twin which is 130hp or 260hp per litre.
If you did that then for 500cc the BMW would be 90hp vs the 130hp of the RS500GP or as 250's would be 45hp vs 65hp.
I don't think when it comes to churning out horsepower equal cc fourstrokes could ever compete without some form of blown induction. To even try to do so would just be a futile and pointlessly expensive exercise.
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I never said it was rideable, just possible to make a four-stroke of some kind with more power per unit displacement than a current two-stroke motocross bike. Now whether it would be faster or practical is an entirely different matter, and goes to show further that four-strokes just have too much to make up for. Besides, all the 4T dirt bikes that are being sold are massively oversquare, too. That's how they can rev as high as the BMW (for a time).