Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: JohnN on July 20, 2010, 10:00:24 AM
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If I got a dollar for every time this worn out phrase has been touted by folks on other message boards, I'd have enough to buy a brand new two-stroke!!
This thread on Vital MX says it all. A guy who is interested in buying a brand new two-stroke. Yet is unable to buy one from his local dealer. Or any dealer in a two state area for that matter!
http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Vote-With-Your-Wallet,997759 (http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Vote-With-Your-Wallet,997759)
So what's the deal? There are other manufacturers that continue to build, sell, service and update two-strokes. Will we support these smaller manufacturers or wait for the Big 4 (okay Big 5) to wake up, update their badly dated two-stroke machines, and begin selling them again to the two-stroke fans?
A disturbing rumor that I heard a while ago is that all of the other manufacturers are waiting to see what big red will do before they release a two-stroke. From all the negative news from the Red camp, it's sounds as though that time will not be coming from Japan or Austria (.... India)..
So it appears to me that our only real hope is to buy new machines from those manufacturers willing to build what we want. When I buy my next bike, I know who will be getting my money.
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If I got a dollar for every time this worn out phrase has been touted by folks on other message boards, I'd have enough to buy a brand new two-stroke!!
This thread on Vital MX says it all. A guy who is interested in buying a brand new two-stroke. Yet is unable to buy one from his local dealer. Or any dealer in a two state area for that matter!
http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Vote-With-Your-Wallet,997759 (http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Vote-With-Your-Wallet,997759)
So what's the deal? There are other manufacturers that continue to build, sell, service and update two-strokes. Will we support these smaller manufacturers or wait for the Big 4 (okay Big 5) to wake up, update their badly dated two-stroke machines, and begin selling them again to the two-stroke fans?
A disturbing rumor that I heard a while ago is that all of the other manufacturers are waiting to see what big red will do before they release a two-stroke. From all the negative news from the Red camp, it's sounds as though that time will not be coming from Japan or Austria (.... India)..
So it appears to me that our only real hope is to buy new machines from those manufacturers willing to build what we want. When I buy my next bike, I know who will be getting my money.
If they're waiting on Honda to release a 2 stroke we'll never see any new Suzukis or the like.
I really wish Suzuki would bring their 2 strokes back, and even Kawasaki if they fix their motor and actually get it to compete with the other 2 strokes. If Suzuki brought their 2 strokes back I'd have one in a heart beat, I kick myself for passing up on a clean 08 a while back (I'll find another I'm sure, but I'd love a new one!).
If Yamaha updates the 2012 2 strokes with something beyond stickers or a gold colored chain / wave rotor brakes I'll have a coronary, thats if they're even around then. With how abysmal their sales have been for the 4 strokes I wouldn't be surprised if someone up top kills the 2 strokes to save some money and push their 4 strokes harder. (Yes I know the smart thing would be to kill off the thing bleeding money (4 strokes) but I can bet they wouldn't do that).
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The biggest issue for us two-stroke lovers, supporters and fans is that no one counts the used market. They only count new bike sales.
Yet there are really no new machines available from the Big 5... even though they limit the numbers on the machines they sell, they base "lack of sales" on people not buying their product.
Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy if you ask me...
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does any1 have the numbers from ktm of how many 2 strokes compared to 4 strokes they have sold this past year?
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The biggest issue for us two-stroke lovers, supporters and fans is that no one counts the used market. They only count new bike sales.
And people like me don't help. You know, folks who cannot afford new bikes but will only buy two strokes for off-road. I would gladly buy a new bike if I had the money.
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I was talking to my local KTM dealer, and he said they actually sell more 2 strokes than 4's, almost 2 to 1!!!
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I was talking to my local KTM dealer, and he said they actually sell more 2 strokes than 4's, almost 2 to 1!!!
that just doesnt make sense to me update a bike that gets outsold and leave the other the same???? Garbage
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Taking all things into consideration like stock and aftermarket parts that are still very available for the two strokes why can't the the Big "5" see that the bikes are still very viable. Especially when we're talkin a couple grand for a 2 versus a 4. As long as I can repair my KX I'm going to do it but if I were to buy a ne3w bike it would the best that is on the 2 stroke market.
Where in the hell is the nearest TM dealer. Now I'm pissed!!!!
;D ;D ;D
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I apparently have been clicked. I can't log on there to respond. LOL
A Chili (http://reigninggifts.com/images/prodimages/light/RedHotChiliPepperSaltPepperShakers1336658.jpg)
and a black helicopter (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n-njTteDnPw/R1Hie9OjqgI/AAAAAAAABx0/3hwOPAg9tiI/s1600-R/Helicopters.jpg+600%C3%97606+pixels.jpg)
Equals (http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy74/2strokesforever/black%20helicopters/redhelicoptersx2.jpg)
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I think that there will be somehting to happen for 2-strokes. There is an undeniable market for 2-strokes in Europe and the US. I know several people who have sold their 4-strokes for a 2-stroke and love them. The AMA is working with the factories to lock down MX (and SX) and limit and eventually eliminate 2-strokes. But the economy is working in favor of the 2-stroke. Unfortunately, "pride" will only work to destroy the companies and the market, regarless or what the consumer wants.
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Strange. Same thing in Europe. Told you my friend just traded in his gas gas 300 for a ktm 250 sxs and shop told him we only trade in your gas gas because it is a two stroke. Things changed and even though the top guys are riding 4 strokes more and more are switching to 2 strokes.
In the Neterlands KTM is the bike to have. Lots of them and second hand they are kinda expensive. TM you do not see much in the Netherlands. I was told that that has something to do woth the bad marketing of TM. Must say they are really beautifull but also heard some times more difficult to get parts. But i do not believe that. In go karting though they all use TM engines also for special class TM cross engines are used. Lots of KTM cross engines are used to because they are the fastest engines. My kart guy told me also father of pedro Tragter told me. He tunes motocross bikes. I still use a yamaha engine in my kart not the fastest but fast enough by me. Pedro's father tuned the engine for me and now fast enough. Strange thing is that max power did not change much but torque did and now and my laptimes became a lot faster.
I guess next very soon more factories will change to 2 strokes because it seems amature riders just want 2 strokes.
Will add popular site of secondhand bikes and then you can see the prices here of second hand 4 strokes compared to secondhand 2 strokes.
http://kopen.marktplaats.nl/search.php?from_searchbox_advanced=1&q=&g=693&qsf=0&postcode=&distance=&search=Zoek (http://kopen.marktplaats.nl/search.php?from_searchbox_advanced=1&q=&g=693&qsf=0&postcode=&distance=&search=Zoek)
Again in Dutch but understandable now i guess.
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A paL of mine has a small KTM dealership , I order some parts from him for my 2 CR125,s haha. I think the big 4 or 5 , tracks the sales of parts more than anything. Since that,s where they make all there money . Everything is tracked now, hell I have a twic card- transportation,workers,indentify,card, that has a chip in it. To track me everywhere I go, the card is for going into ports,etc. It,s just another gov. money maker. Diesel fuel is tracked big time to have real time, on the nations economy. To see what parts of the country, are hot, moving goods, then they study everything including tire purchases. At 4,800.00 for drive wheels alone, that says the owner operator is making money, which most are living off there credit cards, using mis matching used tires.
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I apparently have been clicked. I can't log on there to respond. LOL
You know they probably did you a favor over there. Every time you wrote anything, you would be attacked... apparently for no reason!
Those guys over there are not really very nice. Nor do they have an open mind about anything.
Besides there is so much more to life!! When are we going to Genghis Grillee again? We still talk about that place!
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I apparently have been clicked. I can't log on there to respond. LOL
You know they probably did you a favor over there. Every time you wrote anything, you would be attacked... apparently for no reason!
Those guys over there are not really very nice. Nor do they have an open mind about anything.
Besides there is so much more to life!! When are we going to Genghis Grillee again? We still talk about that place!
You could always make the Texas MX race a yearly trip. :-) Next time you gotta plan time to hang out at our house and swim etc. As far as being clicked, it is funny, I guess Guyb figured it was a good time to do it, because I haven't been going at all. I will not go quietly into the night, I will not be clicked without a fight. Well, maybe I will ha ha. I just happened to go from your post there to respond with my chili/helicopters, and it wouldn't let me sign in. "Chili" is the guy who posted the remark...
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Most likely, we will make the Texas round a yearly event!
It would be great to hang out, swim and talk two-strokes!
As for responding to the thread... just about anything you wrote would bring out the "goons" and it would go downhill very quickly.
My opinion... you're better off not being a part of that place!
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good to hear you will be traveling this way often. Maybe I'll go to the actual race next year? 8)
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Whats holding me back from buying a new bike
is that the asking price for a two stroke gone so high these last few years and the bikes just got bng.
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It's interesting to see this.
KTM hold their cards relatively close to the chest on their 2t sales - no hard figures seem to be given, but their launch videos always give the impression that 2ts are continuing in sales growth, and I've read that 40 to 50% of their total sales may well be 2ts. Their 2t profits drive/pay for so much of their 4t development.
I rarely see big price cuts / incentive packages to sell off left over 2ts (other than the 125/150 KTM here in OZ), but you see, every year, huge incentives / price cuts on bikes, even the wildy touted 09 Bergs that were supposedly unobtainable.
I often think, just how pissed off must people be, after having paid the full wedge, or near enough, for their new bike, to see it sold for SO much less, or with a whole bunch of goodies, only a few months later? Both of these sale incentives hurt the resale of bikes, and must be doing damage to consumer confidence and loyalty.
I believe that we are seeing, even with Yamaha (and perhaps KTM), little interest in their 2ts - and this will continue whilst they have so very many left over bike stocks . From what I gather, the stocks of unsold bikes, rivals that of the seventies / early 80s when Yamaha tried to take on Honda and become the biggest MC company in the world. But in this case, it's ALL manufacturers, due to the global financial crisis. Bikes just aren't being bought.
Another thing that I've read enough times on KTM talk, by various "Gurus" there, is that KTM have been selling bikes in the US for a long time, for pretty much cost price (at wholesale level). Done because the US is such a major market for them. Common sense might finally prevail , especially if they, and other companies, realise the massive middle class markets opening in India (KTM/Bajaj would certainly be aware of this) and China, as well as other markets. As it is, it seems the rest of the world is subsidising sales in the US - When I see the price difference (and I know the various duties and tax in US and OZ markets) it's beyond a joke, and I for one will not buy a KTM whilst this is happening.
Perhaps KTM are / have also been caught out by the demand for 2ts, and have not produced enough to satisfy demand, and are supplying more to the the markets where they get a better return on the sale, yet even then , they don't have enough product to meet the demand.
After seeing the efforts by that Dutch (?) dealership , that many had hoped would be the 2011 2t Yamahas, and now the South African dealerships that make the bikes look better , for what would be minimal costs to Yamaha to do, you'd think Yamaha would go that route, at least. I remember an article about Doug Dubachs 250 he used for the 09 (?) 2t challenge, where he fitted one of the 4t swing arms and rear wheel to get an easy few pounds of weight savings - much of it precious unsprung weight. It showed how little cost could be incurred to change an existing, old platform to help continued sales.
Even the lack of a linkage on the new 2t SXs may done specifically by KTM to push sales of the 4ts. Despite what they say in their press kits. So many in the US demand linkage. So , the 4t has the 'new' link, the 2t doesn't........bingo, another sale of the 4t. By the way, I would much rather have a non link bike - just give me a shock with external bottoming control, such as the Fox RC3, and I'd be as happy as a pig in the proverbial. This is what I intend to do when I make a frame for my 500 - I do AF conversions, but I don't want an AF conversion. :o :D I'm lucky, I can make exactly what I want.
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Bear, you bring up so many excellent points here.
None of the Big 5 manufacturers want to publish their 2 stroke sales figures. For the most part they have been pushed down for multiple reasons, the biggest being that they are pursuing the four-stroke agenda. If you didn't of couldn't see it before this, it is now obvious to even the casual observer.
As for KTM selling their machines at "wholesale" in the USA, I would imagine that is true. Just add up the cost of the components on the machines, you'll come up with a figure that is higher than what the US market pays for the bikes.
Sure it would be easy for Yamaha or KTM to update the two-stroke line-up with minimal cost and maximum benefit. But is this what they want to do? Would this throw the proverbial monkey wrench in the works?
Imagine the issues of a slightly updated two-stroke outselling the latest, greatest four-stroke with all the bells and whistles. It could be a real problem for them. Probably in ways that we are not privy to.
But you bring up a good point, Dubach using a 450 swingarm and rear wheel to lower the un-sprung weight. Updates in the look of the machines to parrot the F models. These things would excite the two-stroke faithful and encourage sales.
Just why did KTM leave the linkage of of the two-stroke models? While the linkage system is the the end all and be all, having it on the two strokes could have added to their sales. That is if they really want to sell more two-strokes.
There seems to be more here then meets the eye.
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KTM at least pay some attention to their 2t line - just enough to keep them selling Very Well indeed.
The profits that they make, from 2, and Only 2, 2t engine units, that have had Minimal changes in over 10 (or more) years - just basic upgrades and developments, has enabled KTM to make the RFS, the XC4, the RC4, RF4, the new 350 engine, the various LC4s, the LC8s, RC8s, the split cylinder/cases Berg and the Sloper Bergs plus the ill-fated bloody car, have been their saviour.
Without the big sales / minimal production and development costs, that makes for big profits, of the 2 basic 2t platforms, I believe KTM would have gone belly up, during the last few years.
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<snip>
Just why did KTM leave the linkage of of the two-stroke models? While the linkage system is the the end all and be all, having it on the two strokes could have added to their sales. That is if they really want to sell more two-strokes.
I for one am glad they did not re-introduce the linkage on the two-strokes. (Even though I have to live with my 2006 250 sx for a while)
Why? Same as a couple of the reasons going two-stroke, simplicity and weight. (And if I were riding enduro, ground clearance).
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While the linkage system is the the end all and be all, having it on the two strokes could have added to their sales.
The above should read;
While the linkage system is NOT the end all and be all, having it on the two strokes could have added to their sales.
And of course it is only speculation on my part....
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If I got a dollar for every time this worn out phrase has been touted by folks on other message boards, I'd have enough to buy a brand new two-stroke!!
This thread on Vital MX says it all. A guy who is interested in buying a brand new two-stroke. Yet is unable to buy one from his local dealer. Or any dealer in a two state area for that matter!
http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Vote-With-Your-Wallet,997759 (http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Vote-With-Your-Wallet,997759)
So what's the deal? There are other manufacturers that continue to build, sell, service and update two-strokes. Will we support these smaller manufacturers or wait for the Big 4 (okay Big 5) to wake up, update their badly dated two-stroke machines, and begin selling them again to the two-stroke fans?
A disturbing rumor that I heard a while ago is that all of the other manufacturers are waiting to see what big red will do before they release a two-stroke. From all the negative news from the Red camp, it's sounds as though that time will not be coming from Japan or Austria (.... India)..
So it appears to me that our only real hope is to buy new machines from those manufacturers willing to build what we want. When I buy my next bike, I know who will be getting my money.
If they're waiting on Honda to release a 2 stroke we'll never see any new Suzukis or the like.
I really wish Suzuki would bring their 2 strokes back, and even Kawasaki if they fix their motor and actually get it to compete with the other 2 strokes. If Suzuki brought their 2 strokes back I'd have one in a heart beat, I kick myself for passing up on a clean 08 a while back (I'll find another I'm sure, but I'd love a new one!).
If Yamaha updates the 2012 2 strokes with something beyond stickers or a gold colored chain / wave rotor brakes I'll have a coronary, thats if they're even around then. With how abysmal their sales have been for the 4 strokes I wouldn't be surprised if someone up top kills the 2 strokes to save some money and push their 4 strokes harder. (Yes I know the smart thing would be to kill off the thing bleeding money (4 strokes) but I can bet they wouldn't do that).
Suki still produces two strokes and distributes them. Just not in the U.S :(
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does any1 have the numbers from ktm of how many 2 strokes compared to 4 strokes they have sold this past year?
Dunno what 2010 is looking like, but for 2009 KTM's 2 stoke sales were greater than 40% of all off-road bike sales. Pretty impressive.....
As far as the linkage, they did "extensive testing", and found that the snappier engine on the 2t performed better with the PDS setup than with the linkage setup used on the fours. So they kept it....
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That's what they say in their sales literature anyway, I wonder if it is really true. My guess is that it is just a cost issue - they probably still have a lot of PDS parts in house and want to use them up.
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If KTM put a linkage on there bikes, they,d lose the straight carb and air boot. With the pds shock, they have a power advantage. It,s possible to have a linkage and have the carb and boot be straight yet, but they would have to redesign everything. And that cost money.