Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: miedosoracing on January 09, 2011, 06:45:34 PM
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Something you guys can ask the guys who say we are conspiracy theorists about the 2 strokes being killed out on purpose. Here's a question you can ask them. Do they believe that the OEM's had a goal of producing 2 sets of motorcycles? 125 and 250f, and a 250 and 450f? Ask them if they really believe that the OEM's wanted two sets of each class bike. I was asked this question today from someone in the know. They said, we are so stuck on the after math, not the intention from the first 400f that was tested with Doug Henry. Their goal with that bike, look at it first, I was told. If they weren't intending to kill off the 2 stroke with that first bike, then they would have planned on producing both sets. We all know that would never be the case. So we can conclude, it's one or the other....
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The motorcycle industry, just like ALL industries now a days, have succumbed to the environmental maggots who have taken control of everything. They think an oil burning 4 stroke is better for the environment then an oil burning two stroke. It's just a disgusting sign of these idiotic times we live in. Honda has said as much. They are dedicated to the environment and this lie called global warming so they are not making two strokes any longer.
I plated my 200 EXC just so I can ride around at 10:1 and piss these people off..
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I think it's a mistake to say point-blank that people are trying to kill the two-stroke for the environment, so to hell with them and the environment. I think the proper approach is to say that, yes, two-strokes do for the most part create higher emissions than four-strokes on average and when using the 1970s technology that all motocross engines seem to be frozen in. Then at that point, you can easily transition into talking about how 21st-century two-stroke technology is, indeed, as clean as or cleaner than modern four-stroke technology. If Honda says they stick with the four-strokes for the environment, the proper rebuttal is to point out the two-strokes that THEY INVENTED which were cleaner than their own four-strokes, and which they quickly swept under the rug. That's where the real juicy rhetoric is.
You'll never get anywhere with environmental Nazis by making the dichotomy between two-strokes and the environment seem stronger. Even if you think global climate change is a "lie" or whatever, it's in your best interest to point out the fact that a modern two-stroke is not a highly-polluting machine.
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I think 4 strokes took over because the technology (or interest) was finally available to make them better. They have been around forever but were always slow heavy pieces of shit.
Everybody was freaking out when Doug Henry won the 1998 motocross title on that $100k yamaha 400 because 4 strokes were still believed to be junk compared to the faster and lighter 2 stroke. The AMA displacement rules (unfair probably because they still underestemated the 4 stroke) influenced the factorys to start developing newer, faster, lighter, easier to ride 4 strokes. It was probably a win-win for them because 4 strokes cost more.
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I don't have to make a case to the mentally defective enviro crowd. They are incapable of thinking in reality. They live in some kind of socialist green wonderland. I've got friends and relatives that buy into that crap and that's fine. Just don't make me give up my two stroke weedwacker and non green products that actually work in favor of some worthless garbage that doesn't but that will supposedly "save the planet." The big question is. Save it from what? Are we so polluted that everything is dying? Hardly.
The reasons are always money. With 4 stroke repair costs it only makes sense to quit making affordable 2 strokes... Best thing is to just not buy any 4 strokes and to discourage your friends from buying them.
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I don't think it's that hard to to understand why the big four went down the four stroke road. It probably wasn't all that difficult to see, or believe at the time that the envi'ros would crack the s@#$ts at the two stroke hydrocarbon problem sooner or later.
Given the other machines they were producing at the time, the crossover between road and off road wasn't that far apart and with improving technology getting closer all the time.
Once it could be seen that the future was multi valve per cylinder the investment dollars and R&D dollars made it bad economics to run two parrallel programs for two engine types.
So to help there business model along a little the major offroad sanctioning bodies were convinced that the two stroke was going to die and you might as well set up the rules so that the gov's and envi'ros could see they were at least trying to be responsable/green.
Problem was racing being what it is the thirst for more power from light weight got expensive and noisier and racing machines are'nt that clean anyway,
and as we know the two stroke didn't die, and of course some manufacturers didnt completely follow the Honda mantra, and they know the consumer will enevitably dictate the direction they go.
So now technolgy has caught up to the two stroke, and the big four are still resisting, probably because they have'nt got full return from there investment.
The air assist direct injected two stroke has the ability to decimate the four stroke world and they are hanging on by there fingertips, because it's all about money.
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I was told it never got to the point of being a choice to see if either was more popular etc. People speaking with their wallets like everyone claims. It was the day they decided in the board room to make 4 strokes, they knew it was one or the other, and they would not let it fail since they knew how much R&D was gonna be in making the 4 stroke. Said had nothing to do with the emmissions. Just a good rumor that helped it along. But never got as far as what many claim, and that the people spoke with wallets. It was well before that...
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I forget the name of the native American leader who stood up in U.S. congress 150 years ago and told them what their actions would eventually do to the environment but he was "bang on the money".The Environmentalists have legitimate concerns and we are fooling ourselves if we do not pay attention.There are radicals in any group or organization and the Enviros have their share.
I was thinking about this entire fourstroke thing lately and I believe it started off innocently enough but when the whole thing took off the conartists and sharks jumped aboard and started fleecing the general public.More profit was to be made off of more complicated fourstrokes and the less scrupulous saw dollar signs. While the radical element of the Environmental movement (SUV driving hypocrites that they are) have done considerable damage to those who live for the great outdoors the industry itself should bear most of the blame for they "took the ball" and started running, to the detriment of our wallets.
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Look at this way, Honda has always been anti 2 stroke, and always pushed for a 4 stroke handicap. It wasn't the fact that there was interest in 4 strokes, they saw it as a potential money maker, and what they did or didn't realize was that it was simply a short term gain. Honda doesn't look at it as a group of people racing, they look at it as a group of people with deep pockets.
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Look at this way, Honda has always been anti 2 stroke, and always pushed for a 4 stroke handicap. It wasn't the fact that there was interest in 4 strokes, they saw it as a potential money maker, and what they did or didn't realize was that it was simply a short term gain. Honda doesn't look at it as a group of people racing, they look at it as a group of people with deep pockets.
The handicap was there from the AMA, not the wishes of Honda. That 400 and the 426 were a spring board, Yamaha sold a ton of those bikes and the other OEMs didn't lose sight of that. If you listen to Matthes' podcast, he has mentioned people within Yamaha (who at the time were his employers) were saying the 4-strokes were outselling the 2-strokes 3 to 1. With a business model like that you can't help follow suit. What the OEMs didn't expect was the bottom to fall out of the economy. If things were still strong we wouldn't be complaining so much about 8k bikes.
So did the OEMs intend on phasing out the 2-stroke? Sure, 4-strokes were outselling them and the technology was in-line with what they wanted to develop. 2-strokes had pretty much peaked, 4-strokes offered room to improve and a distinct advantage. Just like the push to 2-strokes 40 years ago. Back then they the lighter and more powerful alternative to what was being produced and sold like hot cakes. It's just the mood of the American market. Quit buying 4-strokes, order a shit ton of 2-stroke parts from your dealer and eventually they'll switch again. Will we be having threads about how the OEMs had backdoor meetings on how to kill off the 4-strokes then? This conspiracy stuff gives me tired head.
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Who pushed AMA for the handicap? The Big Red White And Blue.
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Gee, I'm surprised. 8) Newbies arrive to dispell something that I post about info I have received. LMFAO
Again, before anyone else posts about 4 strokes outselling 2 strokes. It was decided before that day even arrived. Just think in this terms and it's my last post about it. Do any of you really think Honda for instance would continue producing and selling a competing item? 2 for that matter???
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I think Honda would continue producing and selling 10 competing models if they were all still selling.
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Do any of you really think Honda for instance would continue producing and selling a competing item? 2 for that matter???
Exactly.
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I think Honda would continue producing and selling 10 competing models if they were all still selling.
Name some from Honda? They've been doing offroad for a long enough time, for you to list current models that compete directly with another bike. I'm interested... I'll make it easier for you, since that may be a hard one. List even cars that they produce that compete with eachother, toe to toe in price and compete model wise.
Ever heard the term: "Rob peter to pay paul."
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Im using that figure as an example. I believe Honda or any manufacturer is not going to stop production of an item if its still selling. That just how I see it.
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thats where your wrong, they aren't selling anything. LOL.
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thats where your wrong, they aren't selling anything. LOL.
Now Im real confused.
If Im wrong then please explain? If the manufacturer's arent selling anything then why are they in buisiness?
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Explain why they have 4 years of inventory still on the factory floor, let alone filling up storage? You can currently buy an 07-08 crf450r for $3500-$4000, and they are still sitting...LOL
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Explain why they have 4 years of inventory still on the factory floor, let alone filling up storage? You can currently buy an 07-08 crf450r for $3500-$4000, and they are still sitting...LOL
Yet 2 stroke Yamahas and KTM's are going for full retail and selling out. So why are the OEM's not producing them, if they are still selling?
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Well, your statement didn't make total since, the cr250 was still selling when they dumped it, and the reason the big 5 continue to sell 450/250f's is because they have to much money sunk into them, let alone the money they make from repairs. As for Yamaha and KTM, they sell limited amounts of 2 stroke bikes in the united states, thats why they sell out so quick. Personally, if I were to buy a new bike it would be TM.
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Factoryx, you realize I was supporting your statement with mine, right? ;D
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I guess I was tired, and wasn't paying attention this morning...LOL. I kind of with agreed with you but I also pointed out why they were selling for full price.
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I was referring to the demand of 2 strokes. They still have high enough demand to sell for full retail. Yes, limited runs, but it shows that there is demand. If some people are willing to bypass a 2008 $4,000 450F for a 2007 $6000 CR250 which really was the same as the 2005. Just sayin. :D
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Oh god yes. :P
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Explain why they have 4 years of inventory still on the factory floor, let alone filling up storage? You can currently buy an 07-08 crf450r for $3500-$4000, and they are still sitting...LOL
Are you serious? LOL
Because in 2007 the we went into a recession were almost 9 million people lost theyre jobs. Maybe 1 in 4 people have the expendable income to go buy dirtbikes now.
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Well, your statement didn't make total since, the cr250 was still selling when they dumped it, and the reason the big 5 continue to sell 450/250f's is because they have to much money sunk into them, let alone the money they make from repairs. As for Yamaha and KTM, they sell limited amounts of 2 stroke bikes in the united states, thats why they sell out so quick. Personally, if I were to buy a new bike it would be TM.
I dont think you know what your talking about. I know for a fact 2 strokes arent selling like hotcakes for full price around here....and havent been since 2004.
I dont understand why you guys are trying to get all scientific with it. lol. 4 strokes evolved and killed the 2 stroke. You cant tell me 2 strokes are selling like they were in the 90s when they were fased out in the 2000s. Not even close.
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My local KTM dealer stocks the full 2 Stroke line, if they can keep them in stock. And yes they get as many, sx's as sxf's. XC's don't stay in stock either. :)
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Find me a good clean used CR250 05-07 in the DFW area right now... I'll find you a ton of 250f's and 450f's.
By the way, where's here so we can verify available bikes in your area.
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The few 2 strokes that are still being produced are still selling because of the small crowd that still demands them. If big 5 were still building them like they were in the 90s they would be sitting everywere not selling.
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I love seeing new faces that come on here saying how 2 stroke friendly they are, and then their true colors show after they throw a few, I love 2 strokes out there. LMFAO. "A small crowd that still demands them?" Have you been to any offroad events? Freakin orange 2 stroke fest. The big 4 are missing the boat.
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My local KTM dealer stocks the full 2 Stroke line, if they can keep them in stock. And yes they get as many, sx's as sxf's. XC's don't stay in stock either. :)
I agree. And Charles Im not starting an anti 2 stroke campaign here, Im just being honest.
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I love seeing new faces that come on here saying how 2 stroke friendly they are, and then their true colors show after they throw a few, I love 2 strokes out there. LMFAO. "A small crowd that still demands them?" Have you been to any offroad events? Freakin orange 2 stroke fest. The big 4 are missing the boat.
I love when a 19 year old kid on his dads computer tryes to tell me what I already know. Ive attended literally hundreds of offroad events. Ive been riding/racing mx for almost 20 years.
Ive had probably 50+ motocross bikes in my life and only two were 4 strokes, so dont tell me what colors Im showing.
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I would just like to see everyone get along, we are here to support the smokers.
There is a lot going on this year.
The way I see it the "big 4" aren't the big 4 anymore. To me anyway.
KTM is still dropping TONS of cash on developing and designing the 2's. KTM is choosing to put a 250SX in select Nationals. That is a HUGE step in our goal. :)
Just because the Big 4 arent supporting them, doesn't mean KTM, TM, Maico, GAS GAS, etc, etc, etc. arent :)
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KTM is choosing to put a 250SX is SX East. That is a HUGE step in our goal.
can you elaborate more?
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Sorry National's, not SX.
KTM is placing Sleeter in select Nationals this season.
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I love seeing new faces that come on here saying how 2 stroke friendly they are, and then their true colors show after they throw a few, I love 2 strokes out there. LMFAO. "A small crowd that still demands them?" Have you been to any offroad events? Freakin orange 2 stroke fest. The big 4 are missing the boat.
I love when a 19 year old kid on his dads computer tryes to tell me what I already know. Ive attended literally hundreds of offroad events. Ive been riding/racing mx for almost 20 years.
Ive had probably 50+ motocross bikes in my life and only two were 4 strokes, so dont tell me what colors Im showing.
Are you speaking of the 07 CRF250 or the RMZ450?
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yes sir. And I should clarify Ive probably raced 50+ bikes.....Ive only owned maybe 15-20. And of those all but 2 were 2 strokes.
Im all for supporting the smoker, please dont think Im not. Were simply debating on were it went. No offence.
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That's cool. By they way, I'm roughly 8 years older than you. ;D
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yes sir. And I should clarify Ive probably raced 50+ bikes.....Ive only owned maybe 15-20. And of those all but 2 were 2 strokes.
Im all for supporting the smoker, please dont think Im not. Were simply debating on were it went. No offence.
The debate on where they went, is this. They knew what they wanted to do, again, going back to my original topic. So they had to have rules as they do, to get it done. They won a championship on a 400cc bike, that was in it's first years. Everyone who has a brain at all, can see that they would not need 450cc's, because the tech would only get better and faster, right? So, they passed a rule that basically deletes any competition, thus you have more sales. Thing is, we who are with opened eyes, see, that CC for CC is fair. We also have seen bikes like 500's go by by, because no one needs 500cc's. Well I didn't need on, I just wanted it. But either way, 450cc's is just too big for the average guy. And, to top it all off, the original ProAMA rules were 370cc from the 1970's. They only changed to the higher cc's rule, to accomodate some big 4 strokes. Had the rules never changed, ever, we would not be seeing the dying off of the once ruling bikes. They've changed rules repeatedly to help 4 strokes, but where's the 2 stroke rule change? And I'm so tired of hearing from forums, the emission deal. Had nothing to do with it. Go see Whitlock speaking about that exact subject, and he said, it had nothing to do with it.
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;D Ok man. You win. Thats probably exactly what happened.......
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;D Ok man. You win. Thats probably exactly what happened.......
I'm not trying to win anything. I was told from someone who would know. I can say one thing for sure. I've seen people who butt against the system get squashed. I know of atleast 5 people who no longer have work inside the industry after saying pro 2 stroke things, which meant anti ProAMA.
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I'm not trying to win anything. I was told from someone who would know. I can say one thing for sure. I've seen people who butt against the system get squashed. I know of atleast 5 people who no longer have work inside the industry after saying pro 2 stroke things, which meant anti ProAMA.
This is an up-hill battle, which is why it is easier as a team. I catch a lot of resistance everyday, It just makes me want to push harder! :)
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I'm not trying to win anything. I was told from someone who would know. I can say one thing for sure. I've seen people who butt against the system get squashed. I know of atleast 5 people who no longer have work inside the industry after saying pro 2 stroke things, which meant anti ProAMA.
This is an up-hill battle, which is why it is easier as a team. I catch a lot of resistance everyday, It just makes me want to push harder! :)
Keep on keepin on Charles
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I just dont see it being that complex. I guess it could be.
I also know some people in the industry. My best friend is a mechanic for Suzuki City and has been working at the Stewart compound for the last few months. He said they play around on 2 strokes for fun all the time. Ryan Sipes (#25 Star Yamaha) is probably our fastest local right now and he ALWAYS rides his 2 stroke in our state series races. None of them are loosing theyre jobs?
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That's cool. By they way, I'm roughly 8 years older than you. ;D
My appoligies, Im 31. You had me fooled :P
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I just dont see it being that complex. I guess it could be.
I also know some people in the industry. My best friend is a mechanic for Suzuki City and has been working at the Stewart compound for the last few months. He said they play around on 2 strokes for fun all the time. Ryan Sipes (#25 Star Yamaha) is probably our fastest local right now and he ALWAYS rides his 2 stroke in our state series races. None of them are loosing theyre jobs?
Umm, exactly, let me post this. so you understand. Riding and talking are two different things, so far only retired guys are coming out saying they wish 2 strokes were back. James Stewart April 2010. " I rode the ones at my ride day, the two-strokes, and
it's just notâ?¦it's just not there anymore you know? The new 450's,
like especially the Yamaha, are so good it's hard to really want to
ride a two-stroke for fun, the only thing that's cool is the sound. I
had one I rode at the ride days but I almost got smoked by a few dudes
when I was riding a 250 two-stroke, so I said nah just gotta give it
up, I just have to. "
To me, that is different than "He said they play around on 2 strokes for fun all the time."
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That's cool. By they way, I'm roughly 8 years older than you. ;D
My appoligies, Im 31. You had me fooled :P
Correct, 8 years. I went to school at EKU for a while as well. We would visit Louisville once in a while and Lexington as well.
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You have to remember that the tide has in fact begun to turn, and that people who aren't happy with that are likely to conduct themselves differently as the water gets deeper.
It doesn't surprise me at all that we get a few people on here who talk about 2 strokes the same way one "Desperate House Wife" might compliment another... Nice on the surface... but with a heavy negative subtext.
It's easy to sound complimentary while actually saying derogatory things, it just takes a little practice. (Probably a lot of practice for the IQ bracket that typically buys 4 strokes)
When you recongnize one of these people, as I believe you did Miedoso, the best thing to do is probably to just start ignoring them immediately. That's the easiest and most effective way to short circuit them.
You might also offer them a ticket home in case they're only here because they got lost... www.thumpertalk.com (http://www.thumpertalk.com)
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Umm, exactly, let me post this. so you understand. Riding and talking are two different things, so far only retired guys are coming out saying they wish 2 strokes were back. James Stewart April 2010. " I rode the ones at my ride day, the two-strokes, and
it's just notâ?¦it's just not there anymore you know? The new 450's,
like especially the Yamaha, are so good it's hard to really want to
ride a two-stroke for fun, the only thing that's cool is the sound. I
had one I rode at the ride days but I almost got smoked by a few dudes
when I was riding a 250 two-stroke, so I said nah just gotta give it
up, I just have to. "
To me, that is different than "He said they play around on 2 strokes for fun all the time."
Thats a cool story man and Im glad you posted it so I could understand. I still think your "Conspiracy theory" about the OEM's all of a sudden being against 2 strokes is crazy.... but thats just me.
So retired pro's are saying bring them back? Ok, heres a retired RC (greatest of all time) at a photo shoot for Fox. Do you REALLY think they payed him to talk about 450s @ 2.19? I dont, if they did they would have just told him to ride one. I think it was his honest opinion.
Ricky Carmichael Rides Again! 2.stroke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCMnnr9riBc#ws)
You guys think Im against 2 strokes......IM NOT. Im just speaking my honest opinion on this particular subject. Im sorry if it isnt what you want to hear.
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You have to remember that the tide has in fact begun to turn, and that people who aren't happy with that are likely to conduct themselves differently as the water gets deeper.
It doesn't surprise me at all that we get a few people on here who talk about 2 strokes the same way one "Desperate House Wife" might compliment another... Nice on the surface... but with a heavy negative subtext.
It's easy to sound complimentary while actually saying derogatory things, it just takes a little practice. (Probably a lot of practice for the IQ bracket that typically buys 4 strokes)
When you recongnize one of these people, as I believe you did Miedoso, the best thing to do is probably to just start ignoring them immediately. That's the easiest and most effective way to short circuit them.
You might also offer them a ticket home in case they're only here because they got lost... www.thumpertalk.com (http://www.thumpertalk.com)
Unless I get booted Im here to stay Suzuki ts250 so you can get used to me. Im sorry my opinion isnt always what you want to hear, but its mine. This is a public forum, I have just as much right to be here as you do. Im not on here calling people names or mindlessly posting crap that doesnt make sense, Im contributing my opinion to the forum. If Im wrong then explain why....that how it works.
Since you have already compared me to a desperate housewife, implied I have a low IQ, and accused me of saying derogatory things I think its painfully obvious you need to take a look in the mirror. I know now to just ignore you as thats the easiest and most effective way to "short circuit" you.
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Again, we can say it over and over, and some don't ever get it. He is comparing a 450cc motorcycle to a 250cc. When the 2 strokes get a fair hand, we will see what is said. I heard one good thing about the 4 stroke in the video about getting traction, but everything else he said, he praised the 2 stroke. When they start comparing 250F's and saying they are better than the 250 2 stroke, I will bow. Did you not notice how that track was setup like the new tracks are now? Setup for slow turning 4 strokes. He even mentioned that. Everything has been setup for the 4 strokes. If things were fair, tracks, cc's etc, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Oh, wait, Cedric just won on a tight track... If you don't agree, than you are my friend are definitely not pro 2 stroke.
So on record, FUN is the word from the Pro's and retired pros. Langston, Mcgrath, RC, JS, etc. So what is the 450F? Gets the job done, but is boring?
I don't think Charles is banning anyone, for exactly what you said, no name calling etc. Just disagreeing. But when a person rides a 4 stroke, when a person defends a 4 stroke, when a person oh wait, that was about a duck I think.
For the record: I have yet for someone on the 4 stroke side of the equation, to bring up how much better a 250F is than the 250 2 stroke... It's always 450F this 450F that. Of course, it's almost twice the size.
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I was watching Cedric at the last German Supercross and I don't know maybe it was just a trick of the camera, but I thought it looked like he was basically just thrashing the fart fifties...
If people in our country weren't paid off the 2t's we'd be seeing the same thing going on here. But our top guys are all paid onto 4 strokes from the time they're still "amateurs".
Top amateurs have to think:
"Let's see... If I ride a piece of shit 250f my parents will get a Mac Card from Kawasaki where they can spend lots of money and the only thing we can't do is take out a cash withdrawl.... OR I CAN STAY ON MY 2 STROKE AND MY PARENTS WON'T GET ONE OF THOSE CARDS...."
The only reason you don't see top people on 2 strokes is money. Money paid to top ams so that they'll come into the pro ranks walking the walk and talking the talk, and money paid to pro's as long as they ride the right bike, be that any Fart Fifty OR even a hoplessly weak pile like that KTM 350 that Shorty and Alessi are sitting on to read butt patches these days...
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Environmentally related emissions issues play a HUGE part in the public's perception of the two stroke engine.We now have a whole generation of offroaders who were raised on fourstrokes who think two strokes are going to be outlawed,they're bad etc. etc..And if a conspiracy does not exist then why don't we have a level playing field (no 2 to 1 cc rule).I mean,if the modern four strokes are so good then let the two strokes back in on an equal basis and lets see what happens.
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Some 19 year old on his dads computer? LMFAO. Just because I am 19 I don't have a say in anything? LOL I am getting my dad on you.
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Some 19 year old on his dads computer? LMFAO. Just because I am 19 I don't have a say in anything? LOL I am getting my dad on you.
What does that have to do with the 2 stroke 'conspiracy'? Yea trolling for an argument qouting things that werent directed towards you is really mature. Like I said.....
.I mean,if the modern four strokes are so good then let the two strokes back in on an equal basis and lets see what happens.
I agree %150....let em play ump.
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Excuse me, I'm not the troll. 8)
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Yup, exactly. It has turned from a sport, to a marketing business.
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So I read this through this thread. I am withholding comment on the topic for now, but will say this. Debating and arguing can be fun, informative, and even productive. But I know Charles wants to keep TSM forum following the basic rules as John started. That is: BE RESPECTFUL and NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. This thread hasn't gotten there yet, but I can see the signs. I can see this one spiraling down between a couple members. Cooler heads prevail, so please remember those rules. :)
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Thanks Mike, I actually had to ban a member and lock this lastnight. It got a little carried away.
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Sorry I missed that, Charles. I could tell from what I read this had the potential to get out of control, I just didn't realize it already did.
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Haha yeah, I deleted the last 6 or 8 posts from it. No Good.
I don't want our forum to be like the rest of them.
I would like our community to be a team, focused on the same goal.
You guys are awesome, this site is FILLED with great information for everyone to read and discuss.
Lets not make it a trash filled place to argue. :)