Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: miedosoracing on October 13, 2010, 07:28:54 AM
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So here's what I've been thinking, all written down by Chad Reed on his twitter: "About the 350 I only rode my lil cousins stock one so tough to say....loved the frame makes me really miss the good old steel frames alloy is a nightmare without goose and RD....overall thoughts are it's much closer to a lites bike than a 450 IMO. My aus CRF450 only has a PC pipe and comparing the 2 I would of bet the bank that I was on a 250F if I didn't know better...."
So here's what really should happen. The 450 isn't going anywhere, the 250F blows, so do this ProAMA> 150cc 2 stroke class. 250 2 stroke vs 350F, and then open class, run what you brung. Then, make the sound level quiet. Sounds too perfect or intelligent though. Will never happen.
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there's gotta be a no-holds-barred test between the KTM 250SX and the 350SX-F. It's still not a fair fight but i bet the 250 would shred the 350
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This is the best idea I've heard. This would emcompass all. Man, if only we could convince everyone involved that this was an ideal situation. I can't believe that know one else in the AMA and promotors wouldn't want this, or some equivalent.
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Well, theoretically, if the noise were knocked down, we could run the 150 2 strokes against the 250Fs even because those bikes would really feel the power loss with lower sound limits.
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I have said it before but 250F's need factory rev limiters set much lower.
The result ?
1) The bikes will be slower.
2) The bikes will be more reliable. Much less handgrenading.
3) The bikes will be quieter.
4) The big one. 125's/150's will be on an even footing.
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I have a great one, how about proper sized pistons, oh wait there goes all the power.. ;D
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I'm not going to just say this once. We should not, repeat, NOT try to gain an advantage over the four-strokes by imposing rules and limits to keep them down. If sound limits are imposed, it should purely be a noise pollution issue. The second you start talking about using a rule like that to slow down your competition, you've entered into the playing field of doing exactly what the Big Four have been doing all along. The philosophical ideal is a level playing field. You get X displacement, you have one cylinder, you burn gasoline, and that's all that needs to be said. That means that the competition is about the riders, and the bikes, and not about who can wave their dick around at the AMA and get them to dole out some favors.
As for changing the rules to 250 vs 350F, I do think that would be a step in the right direction, however, I don't think it's something we should pursue. The Big Four don't make 350Fs, and have warehouses full of 450Fs that they need to move, and now we're going to tell them that the "little guy" KTM's 350F thing is now the golden standard? They'd shut that proposal down so fast it'd make Clint Eastwood open his eyes (for the first time in 40 years) with surprise. I think 300 vs 450F works better, because it's easier to take a 250 two-stroke and make it a 300, than it is to take ten million 450Fs and make them into 350Fs.
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I am not sure if you realise living in the time vacuum that you do , But rev limits have been used in motor sport for years as a way of keeping costs down.
Sports like F1/Moto GP/WSBK/NASCAR by diff ratio limits.
Maybe you have heard of these sports on your wireless ?.
PS. Do you realise you were argueing with your self in the above post ?
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I am not sure if you realise living in the time vacuum that you do , But rev limits have been used in motor sport for years as a way of keeping costs down.
Sports like F1/Moto GP/WSBK/NASCAR by diff ratio limits.
Maybe you have heard of these sports on your wireless ?.
PS. Do you realise you were argueing with your self in the above post ?
Lol :D It's good to see things haven't changed during my absence.
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Lol :D It's good to see things haven't changed during my absence.
Na its been quiet lately. But I coudnt resist. :D
Where have you been ?
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Busy for a while then had an unexpected health issue whose severity is yet to be determined.I guess that distracted me from computing,bikes etc.I've since decided,P on it,whatever is,is and I'll just continue on for now as abnormally as usual :D
On another note,as I was eating supper tonight I was watching a show about an Aussie dude who whacked people and then stuffed them in barrels :o Cripes,are they all like that? ;D
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Yep thats the aussies for you. ;D
You would have seen the chopper reid videos before. That pretty much sums them up. :P
Hope you get well and things arent too serious.
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Yeah,I've seen those,too funny :D.
As for me,time will tell but if I crap out,I'm coming back as the seat on Meghan Fox's bike ;D
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As for me,time will tell but if I crap out,I'm coming back as the seat on Meghan Fox's bike ;D
I have already asked the big fella for that job. ;)
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Lol,probably better for you to get the job anyway.With my usual shi!house luck,if I got it,she'd end up selling it to Jetz :'(
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I'm not going to just say this once. We should not, repeat, NOT try to gain an advantage over the four-strokes by imposing rules and limits to keep them down. If sound limits are imposed, it should purely be a noise pollution issue.
If you know anything about me, I've been on the sound limits for noise pollution for years now. So, it is for that reason, but the result is, it would make the bikes slower. That is exactly why teams like PC are fighting it. I don't get it though. If one team has less sound so does everyone else, so it's still on an even playing field. Don't know why there is so much fight against it, when they see what the local tracks are doing. Closing.
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Don't impose rev limits on the 250f's. Let them blow the things up.
The 150SX revs to very nearly the same heights as the 250 4 stroke, so let people use their engines the way they see fit, to whatever end.
Even at the current sizes, a faster rider on a 2 stroke can win no matter what the competition is on. With a closer parity of displacement like what burn is fighting for, it will be possible for even more people.
I love the sound of the 350 4 stroke if it's going to cause more 4 stroke bike failures on national TV this year...
Whatever it takes.
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I know that other sports have rev limits in place, and I'm against them. It's intentional sabotage of the technological development, and there should be no place for it in racing, especially when that racing represents the state of the art. What I'd like to see, is that everyone finally be "stroke blind" as far as the rules are concerned. If someone develops a 27-stroke motor that's better than the 2-stroke for a given size, then dammit I want to see the 27-stroke win, even if I prefer the two-stroke for reasons other than performance. It will have earned it. And if someone wants to make a bike that turns 20,000 revs and enter that into the competition, that's fine with me, but good luck selling it to anyone. Competition will find the best solution. A bunch of people arguing in a room with company payrolls and biases positions trying to declare what an entire country should race, will not.
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I love the sound of the 350 4 stroke if it's going to cause more 4 stroke bike failures on national TV this year...
Well since Andrew Short will be riding one for KTM next season, you may get your wish...
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I know that other sports have rev limits in place, and I'm against them. It's intentional sabotage of the technological development, and there should be no place for it in racing, especially when that racing represents the state of the art. What I'd like to see, is that everyone finally be "stroke blind" as far as the rules are concerned. If someone develops a 27-stroke motor that's better than the 2-stroke for a given size, then dammit I want to see the 27-stroke win, even if I prefer the two-stroke for reasons other than performance. It will have earned it. And if someone wants to make a bike that turns 20,000 revs and enter that into the competition, that's fine with me, but good luck selling it to anyone. Competition will find the best solution. A bunch of people arguing in a room with company payrolls and biases positions trying to declare what an entire country should race, will not.
WOW!! I totally agree!
27 stroke - 2 stroke - whatever! Same displacement is all I ask.....
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I know that other sports have rev limits in place, and I'm against them.
Often rev limits are used as means to help keep lower budget teams somewhat competitive.It would suck for any race to have only a handful of well financed racers participating.
Besides,if not for backmarkers,where would Maico be? ;)
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Maico will be in front, of course.
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If the goal is to keep the bikes from being too expensive, there's no need to specifically keep performance down per se. Just tell the manufacturers that whatever they race, they have to sell. That's something that can't be done in Formula 1 because no one is in the market to buy an F1 car (keeping costs down to that extent is simply a lost cause.) But in motocross, the racing machines are consumer products that you and I can purchase if we so desire. If a bike is made that's so expensive that only the highest of top-level professionals can afford to even race it, it's probably going to sell poorly unless it can really dominate everyone else. Four strokes are in this position, because for the most part it is much easier to defeat a 450F on another 450F, and so the investment is simply seen as necessary. The only reason the market is supporting these ridiculous things is because the displacement rule just gives them that much of an advantage. With stroke-blind rules, the four-strokes would have to either somehow pull a magical amount of torque out of their ass (good luck), start revving to 18,000 or more (at which point they'll stop selling) or simply disappear. No technology restrictions need to be applied, just simple straight-up one-on-one competition and the superior work of engineering will be victorious.
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I'm in the market for an F1 car.I just happen to be a little short at the moment(I'll post my pay pal acct later).Maybe I could get a deal on Mark Webber's Red Bull now that the Korean round is done.Aussie's-pbbfffttt :P
I'd agree with some of what you say but high tech,high level racing does improve the breed and trickles down to new models-making life better for those of us not mired in the past-ahem.... :D
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As a general rule, there were fewer of those limits in the past. QED.
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there's gotta be a no-holds-barred test between the KTM 250SX and the 350SX-F. It's still not a fair fight but i bet the 250 would shred the 350
Shit yeah, would eat it for breakfast!!
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As a general rule, there were fewer of those limits in the past. QED.
QED???
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I am not against technical advancements.
I love how far engineering has come in the last 20 years.
What i don't like is when the technical advancements put the cost out of reach for the average joe.
For sports like F1 & motogp (what a stupid name ) i see no problem because the developments trickle down to every day products.
BUT F1 & motogp are elite sports where only the best compete.( Or people with big sponsers )
Moto x bikes are a product that all sorts of people buy either for fun/competion/trail rides and the costs of rebuilding a 250F if something goes wrong is out of reach for most people.
By having a FIM/AMA imposed rev limit & Noise limit the manufactors will have to comply and the masses will be better off.
You can say let them blow up but like it or not they are here to stay.
The manufactors are going broke with the amount of unsold bikes around why would any of them consider putting money into smokers when they dont have any.If the big 4 japanese were still selling their F's maybe they would import a few more smokers ?
Luckily it's not a problem here. Went into the local Suzuki dealer today and he had 3 RM250's & 3 RM125's. ;D
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We don't need the rules to keep the prices accessible. If the big factories are losing customers and losing money by making bikes that are too expensive and like to blow up, then they will eventually have to either change their ways, or make room for someone who knows how to make a proper bike. The fact is, if the two-strokes were at the disadvantage they are now, but were at equal-displacement, it'd be a different conversation. It would mean that in order to get passable performance, you'd need to buy a bike that blows up every ten minutes. But, the reason people put up with these things is because they've been given an unfair advantage. If the system can be hauled back to normal in terms of displacement, then eventually the superior technology (with regards to performance, cost, etc) will win out. That just happens to be the two-stroke. As long as there's a rule saying you have to race what you sell, then the factories will be limited to only racing what the buying public is willing to take. If they make a $500,000 bike from hell, they may win the championship, but winning a championship doesn't put black ink on the page when that's what you have to sell.
Everyone keeps asking why the big four would try and sell two-strokes when they have so many unsold four-strokes hanging around. The fact is, having a lot of dead-weight four-strokes is precisely the reason for them to bring two-strokes back. They're out to make money, and they will eventually realize (if they haven't already) that their customers are beginning to reject that which is expensive, and look for that which is cheap. Even if they only make 1/3 as much profit off a two-stroke (who knows what the real ratio is) you can bet your ass that they'll make more money by making two-strokes and selling them, than by making four-strokes and NOT selling them.
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Yep thats the aussies for you. ;D
You would have seen the chopper reid videos before. That pretty much sums them up. :P
Hope you get well and things arent too serious.
Maybe I could get a deal on Mark Webber's Red Bull now that the Korean round is done.Aussie's-pbbfffttt :P
One word for both of you morons........THE AUSSIE DOLLAR!!!!!! :P
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Australia has hard currency?I wasn't aware of that.Is that really such a good idea in a country on convicts? :D
BTW,I'm not just "one of the morons"-I'm the king. ;D
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You're The King?
So...
(http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/mr-t.jpg) = (http://www.dailycomedy.com/images/jokes/b/elvis.jpg)
It all makes sense now!
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Don't tell nobody :-X BTW,I pity the fool that steps on my blue suede shoes :)
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Just thought I'd throw this out there....
Test rode a 350-SXF today... Was an absolute blast, what's funny though it reminds me of a heavy 2 stroke... You really have to wring it just as hard as the 250Fs/ 2 strokes to get anything out of it, can't really ride it like a 450 (something that it was claimed you could do with it) though. All the power it in the top, but I suppose you could lug it around (didn't do it). I was on the limiter probably as much as I was riding the 250Fs.
They really should move the 450s to 350s. So much more fun to ride (and easier to ride faster than a 450), and on par I think with the 250 2 strokes (much more so than the 450s). Too bad that it'll be as rebuild prone as the 250Fs though.