Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: ford832 on August 15, 2010, 05:02:41 AM
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The Aug issue of MXA is a good read as per usual.Lots of good 2t stuff including a YZ125 test,tribute to Danny Chandler and Andrew McFarlane and site sponsor Revanche with T shirt of the month(must put that on my list)I won't give it all away because,well,get your fat arses off the barcalounger and waddle down to the newsstand to pick up a copy and support those who support you.
Anyway,from the article"The man behind the CRF450"
MXA- Is there a future for two strokes?
Taichi Honda-"There is no future for two strokes at Honda.Our policy is 100% four stroke.It's a green issue.Honda believes in this in every product it makes,from motorcycles to garden trimmers"
He goes on to say two strokes have many good points and he personally rides a pair of CR250's with his son.Go figure.
Regardless, Boooooooooo Honda!
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NOT to steal your thunder Ford but if you go back 5 pages on "General Two Stroke Talk" you will see a post entitled "Hondas Not So Surprising Anti 2 Stroke Stance!" and you will see that I've already pretty much posted the same MXA info from that issue as you did....It's kind of funny though... :D ;D :P :) :D Damn I can't stop laughing!?! By the way did you water that money tree of yours yet??? :D
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This is why I boycott all their crap and have no problems to point out their business practices.. Their are the biggest influence on the sport. Screw Honda. Their engineers should go back working on this project instead : http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html)
Big Red has designed and built a race-winning two-stroke prototype that has emissions comparable to a four-stroke. Named the EXP-2, this bike has demonstrated the possibility of a rebirth of the two-stroke engine as an environmentally friendly machine. Two-strokes have several advantages over their four-stroke counterparts: For a given engine displacement, a two-stroke is lighter, smaller, produces more power, and has fewer moving parts. This makes it less expensive to manufacture -- especially since the motors can be fitted to smaller, lighter chassis -- more reliable, and easier to maintain than a four-stroke. :o
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Totally agree with ya 2smoker, I won't buy anything Honda. Although I like the EXP-2, so maybe I should build a bike like it. I like to steal Honda's two stroke designs and engine parts. ;D
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Lol,what can I say maicoman.I sometimes don't get time to sit behind the keyboard for weeks at a time.I blame you for not bumping it up :D ;)
As for the money tree,I decided to leave well enough alone.Besides,I don't know where it's been :o :D
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2smoker
You put out some great points but the reason honda didnt produce this bike is because like you said its less expensive. Honda produces four strokes because they make so much money off of them in the long haul. If they were to produce a two stroke they wouldnt make as much money off of them than the four stroke. That is why this world is so sad. I thought companies were supposed to build bikes that everyone can buy knowing it is reliable and not going to blow a valve in mid air. Honda dont care what the people want, they just want to make some money. :(
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But Honda does care what people want... :o that is why they've put soooo much into the kool aid pushing the "green" strokers... oh and yes the movement was to ensure they lined their pockets with everyone's money for parts and repairs as those "green" machines continue to go boom... :D
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I don't think that explains everything. I think that if Honda pushed this technology through they could have bikes in every category of motorcycling, from sport bikes through enduros, that would have big advantages over everything else a man could buy, and that would land them massive market share. Although they wouldn't make as much per bike, they'd sell a lot of them, undercut the competition, and make money that way. And they could probably even put a fairly hefty price on them and still sell tons, because the public would be willing to pay a bit of a premium for The Best. I speculate that the other members of the Big Five would've been much more likely to run with the line if they had invented this, and not Honda. Honda is, as far as I know, the only company that has flatly and openly admitted to being pro-four-stroke on a fundamental level, even quite early on.
The warehouses of empty bikes are proving that four-strokes are not a money-making business strategy in motocross at this time, and without the change to the rules they never would have been at all. I don't know the story on why street-bikes went 4T but I'm guessing it's emissions. This Honda engine would solve the problem on the street, and I would guess that it'd have the big, smooth power to seriously lay down the gauntlet in motocross, handicap be damned.
No, I think dollar-signs-in-the-eyes would've caused a company to roll ahead, patent the thing, and start stamping them out to the tune of their competitors' death moans. But there is an internal set of priorities at work here in this particular situation.
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Lol,what can I say maicoman.I sometimes don't get time to sit behind the keyboard for weeks at a time.I blame you for not bumping it up :D ;)
As for the money tree,I decided to leave well enough alone.Besides,I don't know where it's been :o :D
Alright Mr.471 post Ford... ;) I'll go ahead & take the blame for not bumping the Honda thing up but you really should at least check TSM at least a half hour each day. :o
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WOW, wait a minute. Honda might of not produced the 400cc EXP-2, but the did produce the CRM250 AR in Japan. It made 40hp because of Japan's HP regulations.
Go to this site to read up on it- http://www.crm250.com/ (http://www.crm250.com/)
The AR bike made more torque than the Mk3 bike (4.0kg/m vs 3.8 kg/m). And it was just as light.
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Lol,what can I say maicoman.I sometimes don't get time to sit behind the keyboard for weeks at a time.I blame you for not bumping it up :D ;)
As for the money tree,I decided to leave well enough alone.Besides,I don't know where it's been :o :D
Alright Mr.471 post Ford... ;) I'll go ahead & take the blame for not bumping the Honda thing up but you really should at least check TSM at least a half hour each day. :o
Apology accepted-just so long as we both agree it was all your fault :D
As for my post count,that's irrelevant as the vast majority are just meaningless drivel :o ;D
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WOW, wait a minute. Honda might of not produced the 400cc EXP-2, but the did produce the CRM250 AR in Japan. It made 40hp because of Japan's HP regulations.
Go to this site to read up on it- http://www.crm250.com/ (http://www.crm250.com/)
The AR bike made more torque than the Mk3 bike (4.0kg/m vs 3.8 kg/m). And it was just as light.
That CRM-250 AR looks like an OK bike but the biggest problem with it is Honda never shipped any over here to America plus they are a tad bit low on the HP numbers!
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Honda is not the root of all evil. That does not, however, mean that they're not the root of a whole hell of a lot of it. What Honda have done here is the equivalent of Einstain discovering the theory of relativity, then burning his notes and saying, "Sorry, I got nothing. Let's just keep using these flawed old Newtonian mechanics."
If it had been another company that I love such as Maico, Chrysler, or Boeing, that did the same thing, then I would hold them accountable for it just as much as Honda. That is, I would refuse to buy any of their new products or parts.
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Damn RideRedMX2 you seem to get very upset when the people on this GREAT site speak their mind about Honda.The one thing I agree with you on is yes Yamaha had a very BIG influence on the sport of MX & SX especially when Doug Henry won that Supercross on that YZM-400 which in my mind was questionable the way the AMA got that bike into racing in the first place?!But I do also believe that Yamahas' so called saving grace was and is the simple fact that they still produce & sell those YZ-125 & YZ-250 2-strokes and they also have the 144cc. kit for their 125.The Yamaha 2-strokes my not be the most updated 2-strokes out there but their still great running,reliable and very easy to work on competitive MX bikes!
Now with the Honda motorcycles everybody or just about everybody on this site knows and accepts the fact that Honda is anti-2stroke & has been that way for many,many years and one simple fact that really makes dirtbike riders & racers mad is that Honda in the eighties had some awesome to say the least 2-stroke technology and I know the engineer who was responsible for that technology was told to shelve it and also was demoted from his position which was "dirty"on Hondas' part so in my opinion and I'm sure lots of others opinions Honda is a low down dirty company and everybody I know don't buy anything with the Honda name on it and won't ever again buy into what they and myself believe to be JUNK!And as far as your skirt comment I believe the only men that should be wearing skirts are the Honda Corp. You and Jimmy Lewis. It also seems to me that you came back from the dark side & then somebody pissed in your Wheaties or bad mouth your Honda 4-chokes and that must have made you run back to the darkside.You tell me?
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I dont think their bikes are crappy.
Just their business practices
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I like Honda ... Pre-2008 :P
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I dont think their bikes are crappy.
Just their business practices
Well TMKIWI I definetly DO NOT think that any of Hondas' older as well as their most recent 2-strokes are crappy bikes at all but hopefully you understand that I'm a diehard 2-stroke fan 100%.I do believe in different strokes for different folks but as for me when it comes to any offroad riding or racing it's got to be a 2-stroke for me! 4-strokes are OK for street bikes but I don't like them offroad,and I think alot of people forget that this site is called TwoStrokeMotocross NOT ThumperTalk.So there is sites out there for 4-smoke fans..... :D
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This debate is not going the way it should. I know I don't have any moderating power to enforce what I say, but if you're going to get in an argument with someone, do it right, people! Calling people names, criticizing their spelling, making silly analogies with womens' clothing - it's the kind of bullshit that four-year-olds do when they disagree. We aren't in pre-school anymore, it's time to man up, take a look at the real issue at hand (is the criticism of Honda justified) and put out honest points and counterpoints.
Now the way I see it, Honda has played an active role in creating rules changes, both in MX/SX and in MotoGP, they deserve to take some heat for that. Honda has removed all two-strokes from their line up, and they deserve to take heat for that. Honda managed to develop a two-stroke for the ages which would absolutely raze the competition, but quietly let it fall into obscurity. They deserve to be criticized for these things, even as they deserve praise for others. Primarily, Honda has historically made some really kick-ass two-strokes. The original Elsinores hit the industry like a bomb, and the CR line continued to stay in the limelight and gather a loyal fanbase for decades. If that's not praiseworthy, nothing is. At the same time, the other manufacturers are not innocent by any means. Each and every one of the Big Five have varying levels of blood on their hands. There was a time, admittedly, when Yamaha had the bloodiest hands of all, but at least they're showing an interest in washing some of it off by keeping the YZ's at least in existence. This may seem small, but when you think of people riding two-strokes today, most of the time it's on a YZ. Honda is the only one of the group to not only keep the blood on their hands, but to raise said bloody hands to the heavens and proclaim the virtues of their... uh... red hands.
It comes down to what I said before. Nobody is the root of all evil, but that doesn't mean that they're not the root of some. All of the Big Five (as well as a few other parties which we all know about) have their own stake in the blame for what has happened. However, it is my opinion that of all of them, Honda have the most to answer for. If it wasn't for the EXP fiasco, things would be different.
maybe i will start some threads on how much Yamaha or Maico sucks and how bad there "business"is bad for the sport
With Yamaha, you've got fair points. Like I said above, they have a whole HELL of a lot of blood on their hands. But, I would honestly love to see what kind of dirt you've got on Maico. If it's bad enough, maybe you can get me to boycott them, too. I'm serious about that.
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Guys this is getting out of hand. Let's see who the bigger person is.
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Guys this is getting out of hand. Let's see who the bigger person is.
Thats very true and sometimes i get carried away so for that i am sorry.........I just really get tired of the negative spin from some on here put on Honda but from now on i will keep it to myself.......
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I think thats the best thing you have ever writen jetz. :)
I don't see how not liking a manufactor could be seen as a personal attack on somebody. ::)
I couldnt care less what brand of bike somebody owns.
Hell i own 2 honda's.From the 70's.
It doesnt stop me having an opinion now does it ?
I thought we lived in a free world.
Its like the Ford v Holden thing in NZ & Aus.
People have punch ups over which is better. :-[
It's just a bloody car.
Thats it from me. :-X
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Badmouthing Honda's not got to get you anywhere, except pissing people off who own Honda's, and who post on here, who own Honda two strokes.
I see these remarks about "HONDOO sucks", and I think thats pretty disrespectful to those who own Honda two strokes.
What kind of comments are those? You, a certain two guys, seem to be bringing this up with crude remarks a lot.
Say it once and be done with it. Nobody cares to hear you badmouth a brand like that over and over again?
Let economics rule and perhaps for your sakes Honda dirt bikes will discontinue.
I dont badmouth Maico or Yamaha. I dont know the history of Maico but I cant remeber when Maico won a main race here in the States or Europe recently?
My experience in trying to find a used two stroke Honda is that its very rare, that tells me that they hold their value, reliability and race well.
I see a great many yamaha's and ktm's all the time in the paper and on craigs list, etc., but I dont go bad mouthing those bikes by saying
"Gee, 12 yamaha's and 22 Ktm's on Craigs list, those brands suck".
A couple threads that mention Honda as sucks, have gone way down on the post list only to resurface/move back to the top by a couple guys on here with more
childish language.
"I love you guys" so lets just ride.
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Hey Princess you own me a beer! :-*
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Hey Princess you own me a beer! :-*
Nice try :D
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Hey Princess you own me a beer! :-*
Nice try :D
Would that be a Killian's Red beer :P
(http://www.laurabeamer.com/bottle_caps/caps/large/killians.jpg)
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Guys this is getting out of hand. Let's see who the bigger person is.
That would be me... Oh my bad, I thought you were talking about the extra weight I picked up when I was working on the road for the past 4 months.... too much fast food, not enough salads.... 8)
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This kind of thing is totally UNACCEPTABLE!! I will not tolerate this crap on my site.
Yes I edited this thread, I was going to delete the whole thing, but there was actually some interesting points on here.
Just for the record, I think Honda makes some of the best motocross bikes, cars and generators. The quality of their bike builds is amazing.
The Honda company made a business decision. They believe very strongly in their vision of the future. If you don't agree that's fine.
Personally I'm sad that Honda has taken this stance. It only means that I will not buy another new motocross bike from their company. I will not "boycott" their other products... that's my opinion.
If any of the three of you that turned this into personal attacks, does so just once more I will lock down your account for a week. If you do it a second time you will be banned from this site for life.
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I apologize, even JETZ realized this post was over the line a few posts up. I avoided this thread thinking it was just a repeat of the last "Honda hates two strokes" one. I didn't realize it got out of hand. I was slacking on the job :( .
In all seriousness it's easy to miss a post, if something like this happens again, please do not hesitate to email or PM me and I will do my best to either clean it up or notify John.
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well here is the deal honda does suck. But I never could say that there bikes sucked. Honda bailed completely off the 2 stroke market leaving its users to suffer. That type of move is borderline criminal because a lot of people bought new bikes from them and then they decide to bail? They do not care about there sales they where making from 2 strokes, they do not care about the users that are still using them, and this has made quite of few people angry and I would understand if they hate everything from Honda. Put this aside honda still makes decent bikes. Also, why would you have to boycott them? there already suffering big time, they have warehouses full of stock from 08 and 09 that they still need to sell.
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I like Honda, and I think you guys are swell :P
Can't we all just ride along...
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Crap,I must have missed all the good stuff.I need to quit work so I can keep up on the juicy bits.
Fortunately,I can imagine at least.
It's amazing to me that some would take offense to a direct quote by a Honda exec and construe that as being an attack on their choice of bike.What is this,Mr. Rogers neighborhood?Facts are facts.If you don't like them,too damn bad.Suck it up and grow a set.
I've owned all the Jap bikes and currently own a Honda quad as well as the YZ which means,of course,absolutely nothing other than the fact that I'm not brand loyal.
Honda is also known for applying pressure to race organizations/rule makers to suit their agenda and ,unlike many others,they have the $$ and influence to do it.
Anything Honda does,even if it appears like a touchy/feely "good for the sport" good will type of thing would absolutely,positively not be done if it didn't further their bottom line.
They are also known as the fourstroke company and blatantly paint the two stroke as an eco disaster to further their sales-especially where the average eco conscious consumer will think this makes sense and come on board.
Having said all this,If I was Honda,I'd likely do the same thing.This is simply called "GOOD BUSINESS" and Honda does it well.If Yamaha,KTM,TM,GasGas or whoever figured they couldn't make a buck by continuing to sell 2t's,they'd be gone tomorrow-simple as that.
I'm astounded that some people are naive enough to believe that certain companies will continue to sell a certain product because it's just the right thing to do-or that others refuse to sell one simply because they feel it's morally wrong.
Business is business,always has been and always will be-everything else is secondary.
Now I'm staring to confuse myself.Where was I again?Oh yeah, Honda Sucks :P ;)
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I understand that much, but there is 40+ years of Honda 2 strokes that people can barely get parts for. And as of right now dealer's are making more repairing motor's than selling. The Atc/Trx250r is probably suffering the most. $600 plus for NOS cases alone! NOS Fender set's are now $1000 plus because you can't get oem anymore. If Honda would sell parts again they would make a killing. And if they wanted to really make a killing the would make a 2011 TRX250R, that would out sell any 450.
here is somebodies mock up they built:
(http://i38.tinypic.com/2z4w95h.jpg)
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Up until about 10 years ago,the beauty of a Honda was that,if they built it,you could buy it.I had an old 60's Hondoo a few years ago and could walk in to my dealer and get parts-although some had been outsourced to China-but still available.
A short term parts cut off is the reality of things these days-and not just for motorcycles.
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If you guys bash Honda one more time, I am going to start to give out gold stars.
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I think I may have just earned one on the other thread. :o
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Hey, if you want to bash someone for parts availability, the only word that needs to be mentioned is, "Orange."
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LOL.
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I understand that much, but there is 40+ years of Honda 2 strokes that people can barely get parts for. And as of right now dealer's are making more repairing motor's than selling. The Atc/Trx250r is probably suffering the most. $600 plus for NOS cases alone! NOS Fender set's are now $1000 plus because you can't get oem anymore. If Honda would sell parts again they would make a killing. And if they wanted to really make a killing the would make a 2011 TRX250R, that would out sell any 450.
here is somebodies mock up they built:
Most problems can be solved by calling service honda.
http://www.servicehonda.com/honda-2010-models/atv-srx250r (http://www.servicehonda.com/honda-2010-models/atv-srx250r)
http://www.servicehonda.com/honda-2010-models/atv-srx250r (http://www.servicehonda.com/honda-2010-models/atv-srx250r)
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Suzuki and Kawi don,t make a 125 or 250 either,or sell them in the USA. At least Honda has the sack and gave everyone a 1 year notice saying that in 07 will be the last year the 85,125,250 will be produced. Suzuki and Kawi just pulled the plug on there 125 and 250. If anyones should be upset it,s the 85 riders, they haven,t made changes to the bikes since about 1995 and 85 senior kids are great riders, that could use frame,suspension changes,egos,etc. I rarely have a problem geting parts from service honda, for my 04,06 cr125. That where green phrase started in 06,in 04 our semis-big trucks got the 2nd generation epa mandated engines,that sound like messed up vaccums,07 low sulfer fuel,months later ultra low sulfer fuel 8 prts per million, 08 the next epa mandated parlament filter engine,commonly called regeneration engine. The parl. filter-looks like a weird muffler with steel hoses,etc. going to it, gets plugged or parchialy plugged idiot lights in 3 different stages come on the driver info screen, you have to park in a safe area and try to do a maual regen, usually it won,t and 90 % of your power is gone,so your top speed is 45mph if that. Sometimes the mauel regen works,you hv. to be parked, temps. of 2,000 degrees, the engine doing a regen sounds like a jet for 40-45 min.,the parliment fuel is turned into a rocket engine, it,s burning the soot from the parliment filter. There,s alot more to it, alot of trucks end up being towed, 2,3 mile tow can cost 1,500 bucks. If your pulling a heavy load at a constant speed,it can regen going down the road,blowing 12 inche flames out the smoke stacks,usually the engine wants a regen in grid lock traffic, the engine is a joke.So the engine maufactures are really struggling to meet the epa,s demands, CAT called it quits, for a while saying the 2010 epa engine isn,t possible,I think they teamed with another manufacture. I don,t think there,s a state where, you can idle for heat or ac anymore,fines can be 2,500 bucks,local cops writing tickets at truckstops.Everyone needs a truck delivering to live,chemicals to water treatment plants, you wouldn,t last 3 days drinking untreated water,food,butt wipe, everything you see and use. Point is the clean air act is very serious, it cost much more to transport everything,making peoples lives more difficult because everything cost much more. We the truckers had numerous srtikes in 08, to fight the 6.00 plus a gal. fuel, gov. long list of new regs.,etc. things that hurt us,but the biggest loser in the end is the consumer,because the fuel surcharge goes right to the consumer.Honda,s stance really don,t make sense,the epa isn,t attacking dirtbikes, they,ll change there tune,just like a politician.
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I say the EPA should just screw off and let long-haul freight go back to the good old days. Like this!
UP Challenger #3985 + 143 Freight Cars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU#)
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Hey, if you want to bash someone for parts availability, the only word that needs to be mentioned is, "Orange."
Oh, it's time for the KTM Rap!
"I got my K-T-M Yester-day,
They don't sell spare parts but that's OK,
It came out of the factory assembled that way,
And when it breaks I just throw it away!"
It's OK if I bash KTM or Honda, b/c I own both, I should get a free pass. BTW, I got a brand new OEM side case for an 86 Honda, if there's one thing Honda did do right, it's they make parts!
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My local Honda Yamaha dealer is awesome for parts stock. The parts manager has a yz250 and the sales manager has a cr500 (same bikes as me) they sock almost anything for those bikes.
I see the sales and parts guys out riding at the local spots, almost always on two strokes 8)
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I had two KTM's and a Berg.I was constantly amazed at how good parts availabilty was.A few days at most-even for odd parts.
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I've never had an issue getting parts for my katoom, but they are pricey... I deserve a pass as well as I ride a katoom, and my son is a quad turd on a Honda 400EX. Not to mention I rode Elsinores back on the day... those were really great bikes... 8)
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The only problem with KTM parts is for the older bikes. I had a 1986 250 that was a pain to find parts for. They didn't even make electrical components any longer and that's what those were known for going bad. I gave it away because parts were such a hassle to get. I refurbished a 1984 KTM 125MX about 10 years ago, and I had if it wasn't for eBay and forums I never would have finished it.
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The only problem with KTM parts is for the older bikes.
Ya I know and bikes which really aren't that old. I talked to a guy once who used to own his own KTM shop and I was like how come KTM doesn't have any parts for older models? He was like well they kept changing distributors and things and so the tools changed and everything. I said I had a 1984 and he was like ya, we can't even do anything with bikes from 1997 let a lone going back that far.
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I say the EPA should just screw off and let long-haul freight go back to the good old days. Like this!
UP Challenger #3985 + 143 Freight Cars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU#)
A couple r.r. facts they destroy the cargo,if you buy electronics today get the extended warranty,they destroy equipment,then that equipment is on the road,the r.r. could careless about your safety,the tires on trls. are made in China they blow and 75 lbs. of thread flys threw the air,can take your head off easily if your on a bike, plastic or rubber mud flaps go flying,bolts,metal brackets,etc. There very slow, a truck in Indiana still has to drive to the Chicago r.r. yard, and at Portland a truck has to del. the trailer to the customer, so if a truck doesn,t bring a trl. to a r.r. yard the trains emty. A few days go by with this process, the r.r. loses freight all the time, a container that,s going to Harrisburg Pa., gets on a train to La., they screwup all the time.Your tax dollars subsidize the r.r., so they can sit on a forklift making 75 per hr. and sleep or watch movies. The fuel used breaks even at a 900 mi. trip,don,t believe there tv comercial. I ran a 24 cylinder engine when I was 24,you could put a 3rd grade girl in a engine and she could do just fine.
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My KTM's and Berg were the cheapest bikes I've ever maintained.Plastic and stock graphics were expensive but of course you could always go UFO for plastic.When I had my 99 it had a plastic ign cover.In 2000,they went to magnesium so I ordered one for mine-for $42.Engine parts,chassis parts,suspension parts-all cheap.The bearings(wheel,steering/engine) they use are standard as well-unlike the jap which need to be from the dealer or aftermarket.For the KTM/Berg I'd go down to the local bearing place and get Timken/SKF or whatever for 1/4 the price of the chinese aftermarket-and way less than that compared to dealer.Maybe some of the shops have excessive mark up or maybe things have changed in the 2 years since I got rid of the Berg.