Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.

[opfermanmotors]

One of the 1st things Jimmy Lewis mentioned to me was how he viewed twostrokemotocross.com as a fringe 2 stroke nut group, I was quick to point out it was no different than ThumperTalk

So because a group of people exist who don't buy into the magazines and everyone else who is pro 4 stroke and against 2 strokes, WE would have to be the lunatic fringe?

Red Rider - Lunatic Fringe

I've seen a lot of people who are militant about 4 strokes, people seem to think today that the default position is 4 strokes are better.

[JohnN]

Personally I've always felt that the all or nothing attitude that some hold is damaging to the cause as a whole.

It's the same for the other side.

[2smoker]

I disagree with you guys.. First.. If any manufacturers comes up with A DFI 2 stroke.. I would be the first one at the dealership dropping money for 2 of them! Bombardier did it..People showed with the money! You guys are thinking to deep!!!!! There is a huge market for 2 stroke..Why do you guys think that the Katooms and Yamis 2 stroke are so tough to find?? But the manufacturers are determined to R&D and sell 4 stroke only..which is a piss off!!!!!!!! I hate the look, the sound, the weight, the powerband , power delievery, the racing......I totally lost interest into the sport. This is why I am here.. This is why I hate Honda mentality right now because they are a big influence in the sport.. the cr150f is a total joke. This bike is so wrong. The 85 cc develop skills, make a you better rider.. I hate going to the dealership and look at the over expensive grenades flooding the showrooms... I don't want a John Deer a want a true motocross bike. The sport is so lame..arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[opfermanmotors]

I agree that it is damaging to the cause however there are a few problems (actually, the pro-4 stroke isn't damaging to the other side since its currently the norm).

Now, I wouldn't care if they produced 4 strokes.  However, I would never buy them.  It would then be great if they made both 4 strokes and 2 strokes and you could choose.

There are several problems though:

1. Can they justify R&D for both 4 strokes and 2 strokes for the off road market?  Off road racing?  How high of a verticle is this market, what's the ceiling?

2. Once both bikes are out there, wouldn't one of them eventually outsell the other and the market itself would probably push one of them off.  I won't speculate as to which one, but likely that would end up with only 1 winner in the end anyway.  Unfortunately, this isn't why 4 strokes are currently here, they didn't win fairly in the market.

3. Isn't it true that different types of MX tracks benefit different bikes?  So, could we have a mixed track or would we end up with 2 different nationals?  Or is just keeping the current tracks and allowing 2 strokes of equal displacement enough?

[SubTexel]

I agree that it is damaging to the cause however there are a few problems (actually, the pro-4 stroke isn't damaging to the other side since its currently the norm).

Now, I wouldn't care if they produced 4 strokes.  However, I would never buy them.  It would then be great if they made both 4 strokes and 2 strokes and you could choose.

There are several problems though:

1. Can they justify R&D for both 4 strokes and 2 strokes for the off road market?  Off road racing?  How high of a verticle is this market, what's the ceiling?

2. Once both bikes are out there, wouldn't one of them eventually outsell the other and the market itself would probably push one of them off.  I won't speculate as to which one, but likely that would end up with only 1 winner in the end anyway.  Unfortunately, this isn't why 4 strokes are currently here, they didn't win fairly in the market.

3. Isn't it true that different types of MX tracks benefit different bikes?  So, could we have a mixed track or would we end up with 2 different nationals?  Or is just keeping the current tracks and allowing 2 strokes of equal displacement enough?

1) Depends on the companies size. But realistically, with how much they have dumped into R&D for the 4 strokes it's doubtful many will do much to their current 2 stroke lineups beyond BNGs (Yamaha), or very minor tweaks (KTM). Though with DI already a reality in 2 strokes (some older SeaDoos had DI (99-2003?) thanks to Bombardier.

2) Of course, see number 1 for why they really won't push for many changes in the 2 stroke side of the house. Currently we have a situation that at best will provide us with the same bikes unchanged for hopefully a long time to come. With the current shift in the world economy (especially back here in the states) we might get to see a shift towards 2 strokes again but not ever at the level it used to be.

3) Yep. Glen Helen is a prime example, as is Racetown, Piru, Hangtown, Milestone, etc... All favor the 4 strokes to some degree, others more so (Glen Helen's shift to the GP style track destroyed it... it used to be pretty neutral in design but not favors the 4 stroke outright). But honestly, you can't blame the tracks too much. They design the tracks for their customers, which happen to be mostly 4 strokes right now. The best route is to go back to the way Glen Helen had their track setup before they sold out to the GP mantra of track design, really their old track was awesome for both 2 and 4 strokes. Everyone was happy.

[G-MONEY]

They have alot of technology they could bring to bear on the 4ts. Variable cam timing,variable intake runners ect ect. They can introduce this slowly over the next 5-8 yrs. Making these bikes faster and easier to ride.

[Super Trucker]

Finnaly  after  100  hrs.  of   prep  to  the  06  CR125, that  I  bought  from  a  farmer, he  bought it  new  in  march  09, 2,999.00. He  rode  thru  cow pies and manure, that,s  terrible  on  the  frame,wheels,hubs,rubber,etc. I  had  to  take  the brakes  apart, just  about  everything. He  never  had  it  apart, which  is good, for  the low hours, he  brought  it  back  to the  honda  dealer, because  it  fouled  plugs, total  dip stick. The  dealer  put  a  too  lean  of  pilot  in, needle clip- all  stock,  loosened  the  stock main  jet.  Anyway  I   hit  the  local  track  to day  expecting   a  bunch  of riders, and  nobodies  there.  So  my  1st   ride  of  the  year  and  I  never  saw  the  track  washed  out  like  this. It  had   numerous  and  very deep  rain ruts  on  all  the  steep  hills. I  walked  the  track, then  put  my  racing  suit  on.  The  cr125  chasis  is  incredible,  I  hit  crooked  rain ruts  in  4 th  gear  pinned, which  is  stupid,but  I   wanted  to keep  a  smooth flow, linking  sections  together. There  was   water  standing  in   the  clay  corners,when  I  made  my 1st outside  line, the  chasis  makes  it  easy  to   keep  hitting   the  line  and   you  can  make  quick  changes   cutting  in  or  out  and in, the front  wheel  sticks. So  it,s  similar  to  the  04, chasis, corners  like a  champ, great  stability, makes  jumping  easy, the  magizines  say  it  instills  confidence, you  want  to  keep  pushing  harder  and  you  really  trust  the  chasis, and  that,s  the  key. Too  bad  honda  don,t  make  the  cr125  anymore.

[maicoman009]

One of the 1st things Jimmy Lewis mentioned to me was how he viewed twostrokemotocross.com as a fringe 2 stroke nut group, I was quick to point out it was no different than ThumperTalk

So because a group of people exist who don't buy into the magazines and everyone else who is pro 4 stroke and against 2 strokes, WE would have to be the lunatic fringe?

Red Rider - Lunatic Fringe

I've seen a lot of people who are militant about 4 strokes, people seem to think today that the default position is 4 strokes are better.

This is a great song from Red Rider & it's all for you Ford.....       We're the LUNATIC FRINGE! That's what Jimmy Lewis says.But who here really cares what he says anyway?

[Super Trucker]

In the USA the green phrase is huge,every large corporation claims to be green. Example walmart when you hit there property-deliver, a large sign says no idling,a local law code on the sign, says there a partner with clean air,etc. There,s alot of procedures at  walmart, all customers-shippers. You are not allowed to idle for heat or ac, no matter what the temp. over 100 or -10, peta has alot of power, if you have a pet in the truck you used to be able to idle, but if your 3 yr,old kids in the truck your not,well now you can,t idle,at all. The goverment put pressure on states to pass no idling laws, the fines are diff. in all the states, average fine 1,000 bucks, local cops go to truck stops and put the ticket on your truck,they know you can,t get back and fight it in court,easy revenue for towns. The funny thing is 08,09 trucks palute less than a car and 2010 trucks the exhaust is cleaner than the air you breath. I  barrely touched on the clean air act, the bottom line is it cost more to ship products because the new trucks are so restricted  they get worse fuel mpg,break down constantly, weigh more-haul less-need more trucks, and cost much more for the epa mandated engines, all these cost are figured in with the freight bill and the general public pays more for there goods. Obama passed a carbbtax, if your co. polutes it,s taxed, when that kicksin everything goes up, all goods shipped,enjoy the good times now. They could easily tax 2-st. riders, tax the companys that make the 2-st. oil,then they pass the fee to the buyer,and then it,s 35.00 per quart, sounds crazy but, that,s nothing comparred to the trucking industies hit.

[ford832]

Red Rider - Lunatic Fringe



Yuck,I hate Tom Cochrane.It's a long story that has to do with a chick in a bar from years ago in a place Red Ryder was playing-and I can't help but think of it whenever I hear his stuff
As for Jimmy Lewis-who's Jimmy Lewis .He's certainly no Jody Weisel that's for damn sure

This is a great song from Red Rider & it's all for you Ford.....       We're the LUNATIC FRINGE! That's what Jimmy Lewis says.But who here really cares what he says anyway?
[/quote]

[maicoman009]

Jimmy Lewis is the editor of Dirt Rider magazine in which I've stupidly subscribed to that biased mag for about the past 28 years but as soon as my subscription runs out I'll start subscribing to MXA or maybe Dirt Bike because I've sent several letters to J. Lewis' mag & have never even got one of my many,many letters printed in that crappy magazine!!!   

[ford832]

Yeah,I know who he is.Races desert and Paris Dakar once or twice  I believe.I think Dirt Rider gets my short attention span award.More pics and less text every year-must be made to cater to the now illiterate generation

[TxTechRedRider]

Badmouthing Honda's not got to get you anywhere, except pissing people off who own Honda's, and who post on here, who own Honda two strokes.
I see these remarks about "HONDOO sucks", and I think thats pretty disrespectful to those who own Honda two strokes.
What kind of comments are those?  You, a certain two guys, seem to be bringing this up with crude remarks a lot.
Say it once and be done with it.  Nobody cares to hear you badmouth a brand like that over and over again? 
Let economics rule and perhaps for your sakes Honda dirt bikes will discontinue.
I dont badmouth Maico or Yamaha.  I dont know the history of Maico but I cant remeber when Maico won a main race here in the States or Europe recently?
My experience in trying to find a used two stroke Honda is that its very rare, that tells me that they hold their value, reliability and race well.
I see a great many yamaha's and ktm's all the time in the paper and on craigs list, etc., but I dont go bad mouthing those bikes by saying
"Gee, 12 yamaha's and 22 Ktm's on Craigs list, those brands suck".
A couple threads that mention Honda as sucks, have gone way down on the post list only to resurface/move back to the top by a couple guys on here with more
childish language.

"I love you guys" so lets just ride.

[JETZcorp]

I dont know the history of Maico but I cant remeber when Maico won a main race here in the States or Europe recently?

This is a little off-topic, but I guess I feel obligated to just say that that particular manufacturer has been on tight budgets since the times when the Earth was still part of a Nebula.  The works bike you saw in the nationals one year was pretty much the bike you were buying in the shop the next; they just couldn't swing a dedicated works bike, or the big-time pro racers.  If I can track down the article I'll maybe post it here, but there was an issue of Modern Cycle where Gaylon Mosier (Maico racer at that time) talks about what it was like, and it sounded like a Maico rider and a McDonald's burger-flipper would be roughly equal in terms of pay.  Mosier, like Ake Jonsson and many others before him, eventually caved and went Japanese.  The ultimate cause of this low budget, I think, was in manufacturing.  Compared with the others, a Maico was much more "hand built," and all bullshit about craftsmanship and passion aside, being hand-built made for massive prices and sketchy QC (think about Honda and Lamborghini in cars, who wins more races?).  So that's why they never won races - they weren't efficient enough to sell big numbers of bikes, and that meant they couldn't afford to invest enough big money to win the pro races.  As for today, well of course they're not going to win in the US because they don't even approach the production quota, and I don't know what the situation is like in Europe so... yeah, I can't really say.

Sorry for going off the path of the thread there, but you said you don't know the history of Maico, so I thought I might as well.

[TxTechRedRider]

Thanks for the enlighting me Jetzer.
You know my comments werent ment for you.
I like the video about the new Maico.  Maybe its because the bikes are red? 
A person cant help but like a company that puts all their efforts behind a product and also stands fully behind it and also posts with the
public.
I got a few Questions: is it because its a european bike that the pipe is on the left side?  Do they make a 125?
Reason why I bought a 125 is because I am getting old and I dont think I could handle a heaver bike.