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Offline bearorso

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2011, 08:07:23 AM »
2T Institute,

I'll take my sources over your 'Institutes' knowledge .

Lorenzo's last 250 was in 2007, and I've heard of more than 109HP from his mount. Simoncelli and Aoyama had another 1, and 2 years developement. And the claims that circulated of how Aoyama was running on 'spares' are complete and utter BS - Honda threw their weight at that engine, to get the last ever 250 World Championship. A hell of a gamble though, placing their efforts into one rider, but, it worked for them.

My information comes from a couple of close friends who have worked in GPs for over 20 years. And others.

HP take off at gearbox, for the amounts I've been told.  Perhaps that graph is a rear wheel take off?

If the power / rev combinations of 125RRs was usable, and reliable, in MX / Offroad, the 250fs wouldn't be able to be sold with their 34 /39 std HP ranges. Hell, there would still be 125s being used from the club level through to the highest levels in World MX, in droves,  to go up against the 40 - 45 (+?) hp modified / works  250fs.  Somehow I doubt that Roczens KTM used in the final round had HP similar to that shown on your dyno graph, from 2010, for the RSA and RSW Aprilias.  The other, I assume is the curve of a 'real' Derbi engine. And if anyone had the talent to make use of a 125 Road Race power curve, it is Roczen.

When you seem to dismiss DFI, for example, with the cooling aspects of an air And fuel charge being vital for a 2t (as it indeed is, in current / old  tech power plants), you seem to ignore / not realise that that loss, would be addressed by appropriate measures, be it through materials, or other cooling methods. For any change, change is required - a simple, and true axiom. I appreciate your enthusiasm, and input both here and on other sites, but there's a lot of people around with a fair amount of experience, that won't necessarily take your opinions, as being the gospel of 2ts.  I happily defer to those who I know that are far more knowledgeable with regards to ICE tech, than I. And I think you might well come under that heading, to a certain extent. I'm lucky enough have access to / friendships with, quite a few people that conduct their ICE careers at extremely high levels. And the reports I get from them, is of 60+(just), and 120+(just) HP from the last of the 125s and 250s. I'll go with their information and knowledge.

Offline 2T Institute

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2011, 06:20:34 PM »
Well I'll take Jan Thiel's(someone who has been hired by many manufacturers since the late 60's to develop engines) word before pit lane whispers anyday, Jan retired from Aprilia Corse in 2007. Is there a higher authority than the man(and a 100 staff at Aprilia) that spent 15yrs day in day out developing at first the Derbi and the the Aprilia RSA engine?After Jan left engine development effectively stopped.
I'll be in a 125 team that runs a RSA this weekend  I'll get the answer then.
Again I'm quite happy to run with Jan Thiel's explanation as to why the Aprilia makes so much HP for a tiny displacement engine. Jan had aspects of engine thermodynamics incorporated into I had to see in the best japanese 125/250 GP or mx engines. If Jan Thiel tells me they could 'jet down until it lost power without detonation' I'm happy to accept his word.
Can I make that any simpler?
Assumptions are just mistakes no realised, the lower line on the dyno graph is Jorge Lorenzo's Derbi that he won the title with, about 5HP down on the Aprilia's. 
Ayoama's 250 had pure carbon pistons, that's the only way it got to compete with the Aprilia's.They won the title through Ayoama's consistency and Aprilia riders punting each other off the track.

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2011, 08:41:22 PM »
Thats what pisses me off with Honda. >:(
The company that hates 2 strokes goes all out to win the last 250 championship on a type of machine that they have buried. WTF!!!!
Why would they want that on their CV ?. Wait a couple of years and there will be no mention that it was a 2 stroke. >:(
Bunch of fucken hypocrite's. >:(
If they were really that "Green" they would not have developed that bike.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline Premixed

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2011, 06:02:38 AM »
they did it because you can still log on to honda's website and buy an RS125.  its ALWAYS a sales ploy.

Offline 2T Institute

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2011, 05:32:20 AM »


125cc Iveco Australian GP winner Sandro Cortese's trophy's

Got to spend the weekend with a Grand Prix winning team, learned how a GP team goes about winning a GP and about the ballsy call to stick on slicks when a shower of rain hit on the warm up lap. Got all my questions answered on tuning the RSA 125(have 56HP DIN on german dyno's at the countershaft sprocket) also managed to pick up a nice momento

Offline TMKIWI

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125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2011, 08:34:40 AM »
Sounds like a good weekend. ;D
Question. What motors are the Mahindra's running ?
I understand they have entered the 125's this year to get ready for Moto3 next year.
What will they be running next year ?

P.S. Well done Casey. ;D
Never used to rate him much but he has changed my mind. :<img src=" title="Roll Eyes" class="smiley">
I think he is 5th on the all time premier class winners list.
Thats damn good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

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125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2011, 09:06:01 AM »
i'd love to collaborate with some dudes on attempting a ridiculous single cylinder 125.  there is a shop in australia (TSS) that makes their own jugs, i think.


i cant find it on the internet, but motocross action magazine did a YZ125 on an alcohol kit in about 1995ish that pulled on a 250 running petrol.  i want to say it made about 41hp, back when 125 mx bikes made about 32 stock.  i cant find it on the net anywhere, and i can not find the alcohol kit anywhere, but i remember the magazine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline msmola2002

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125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2011, 10:24:01 AM »
they did it because you can still log on to honda's website and buy an RS125.  its ALWAYS a sales ploy.

Nope, the last year they made a run was 09 and they are all long gone.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

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125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2011, 03:57:04 PM »
very well.  their site is bullshit then.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline msmola2002

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125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2011, 06:08:22 AM »
try and buy one and let me know how you go then.

http://rscycles.com/Bikes/125/04_rs125/125cc2.htm

Quote
NEW 2009 production year
 
2004 RS125R
 . . . BIKE w/setup kit  :  $12,500.00 approx 
      SOLD OUT - Last production year was 2009



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline 2T Institute

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125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2011, 11:43:04 AM »
Sounds like a good weekend. ;D
Question. What motors are the Mahindra's running ?
I understand they have entered the 125's this year to get ready for Moto3 next year.
What will they be running next year ?

P.S. Well done Casey. ;D
Never used to rate him much but he has changed my mind. :<img src=" title="Roll Eyes" class="smiley">
I think he is 5th on the all time premier class winners list.
Thats damn good.

Better than good, I always wondered what the Mahindra ran but it appears to be an Aprilia RSA engine. I don't know(or care) what they will be using next year, though I have heard some rumours.

Casey Stoner is a all time great, his out lap is done at 95% every other lap at 110%. Slides the bike everywhere.

Sandro Cortese fastest P1 in Malayasia ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »