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Offline 2T Institute

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Re: Why dual stage reeds
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2010, 03:35:52 AM »
A reed at 6000 rpm opens and closes 100 times per second at 12,000 it's 200 times a second. The reed remains seated for approximately 1/200th of a second at 6000, that is a single petal. If for a moment you still don't belive the top petal flaps about then maybe all those camera's that Queens University Belfast pointed at reed petals , lied also? That test under running conditions has been repeated a few times with strobe lights and high speed camera's. All with the same result. Top petal flaps about uncontrollably as rpm rises. I have the QUB paper if you care to read it?

As a footnote it is with much sadness that Prof Gordon Blair of QUB passed away during the week after a long battle with cancer. RIP and Godspeed Prof GP Blair. 

Offline ford832

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Re: Why dual stage reeds
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2010, 02:10:24 PM »
A reed at 6000 rpm opens and closes 100 times per second at 12,000 it's 200 times a second. The reed remains seated for approximately 1/200th of a second at 6000, that is a single petal. If for a moment you still don't belive the top petal flaps about then maybe all those camera's that Queens University Belfast pointed at reed petals , lied also? That test under running conditions has been repeated a few times with strobe lights and high speed camera's. All with the same result. Top petal flaps about uncontrollably as rpm rises. I have the QUB paper if you care to read it?

As a footnote it is with much sadness that Prof Gordon Blair of QUB passed away during the week after a long battle with cancer. RIP and Godspeed Prof GP Blair.  

I'd love to read it.I don't see though(and am quite willing to be proven wrong)how you could set up a strobe and hs camera to capture relevant data.The strobe would have to be timed to something otherwise it would just capture the reed at various positions with no way of telling if it was on the way open,staring to close or vice versa.Regardless,the simple fact of the matter is that if the reed is staying open-or not sealing(anyone ever had a chipped reed?)the bike will run like a bag of crap.That said,I have no doubt they will flap at higher rpm in the same manner that valves will float but at that point you are outside of your effective power range so it's irrelevant what they do.
Mattias,that is their intended purpose but a dual stage reed meters better due to a smaller opening at lower rpm's and a larger opening at higher rpm's.Smaller openings produce more velocity at lower speeds.It's the same idea as how a smaller carb works better at lower rpm's and a larger carb works better for high RPM's.The power wings that are sold everywhere now are an attempt to produce the best of both worlds.
Before I changed to the Boyesens on my SX,I took the stiffener off the back of the reed(as recommended in my KTM manual)to see what effect it had.It was indeed much better for a short time,then fell on it's face badly-but it depends on where you ride and your riding style as to what would suit you the best.
I don't know if Carbon Tech is still in business or not but they used to sell low,mid and high tension reeds-depending on what you were after.Pretty narrow focused but it's the ideal if you ride mainly at one particular rpm.
2t institute,condolences with regards to prof Blair.Obviously I never knew him but when you are touched by it yourself you appreciate what it feels like to think you are at the end of your days.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 02:15:07 PM by ford832 »
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Offline 2T Institute

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Re: Why dual stage reeds
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2010, 06:03:12 AM »
I'll try to find the SAE paper number, but simply there was a vaccum tank attached to a rotary valve (simulating engine pulses) a rotary encoder attached to the valve a reed valve housed in a perspex box with a high speed flash and a high speed video camera recording the events.
The rotary valve could be turned at various RPM and the data recorded with annometers and pressure transducers before and after reed valve.

I did get one part incorrect the test is on dual stage reeds but not with ports in the bottom reed , but I do know Ron Chinoy(RD Dreams) made basicaly the same test.

I'll see if I can scam these somehow

http://papers.sae.org/790842
http://papers.sae.org/942528

I didn't know Prof Blair but anyone with a passing interest in engines has benefited from his life times work.

Offline ford832

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Re: Why dual stage reeds
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2010, 04:29:16 AM »
Excellent,thanks,it looks like it would be a good read 8)
I'd rather a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

Offline SachsGS

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Re: Why dual stage reeds
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2010, 08:20:46 AM »
Two cycle engines are nothing more then "Air pumps" and from a theoretical vantage point a reed valve could be considered an obstruction in the intake passage. Some of the early RM's and the Rotax 370/400's were a combination of case reed and piston port induction.I wonder just how much a reed assembly inhibits gas flow?.

Is this the same Belfast institute mentioned every time a Greeves 370 Griffon comes up for auction on Ebay?.

Offline teriks

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Re: Why dual stage reeds
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2010, 01:07:25 PM »
A reed at 6000 rpm opens and closes 100 times per second at 12,000 it's 200 times a second. The reed remains seated for approximately 1/200th of a second at 6000, that is a single petal. If for a moment you still don't belive the top petal flaps about then maybe all those camera's that Queens University Belfast pointed at reed petals , lied also? That test under running conditions has been repeated a few times with strobe lights and high speed camera's. All with the same result. Top petal flaps about uncontrollably as rpm rises. I have the QUB paper if you care to read it?

As a footnote it is with much sadness that Prof Gordon Blair of QUB passed away during the week after a long battle with cancer. RIP and Godspeed Prof GP Blair. 
I would really like to read that paper, if you are in a position to share it that is.
The footnote is sad news indeed..