Would you buy this bike?

[MXLord327]

I am a 43 year old Novice-class motocross/hare scramble racer/trail rider who just got back into riding/racing 4 years ago after being out of the sport for nearly 20 years.  I ride a 1998 YZ250, which is really more bike than I need, and not a great trail bike at my skill level.  What I would love to see someone make is the following machine:  a 350cc 2 stroke, liquid cooled, but no power-valve.  A steel frame would be great for durability and could be easily welded if it broke, but could be made with current geometry.  Non-current (cheaper) suspension components, maybe even conventional (not upside-down) forks, and a less expensive shock with fewer adjustments.  Front & rear disk brakes, no electric start.  The engine tuning should be about half way between enduro-soft, and motocross snap.  Definitely carbureted - no fuel injection!  This bike would have about the same HP & torque as a current 250 MX'er, but a lot smoother and easier to ride.  It would definitely be competitive in enduros and C level motocross, it would be fairly quiet, and be nearly bullet-proof.  I bet if someone made this bike and could sell it for under $5000, it would outsell all the 450's combined, and I am sure that is the reason it will never be built.  Pistons and cranks would last years, not weeks, there would be no money to be made on parts with huge mark-ups.  I would guess that at least 70% of all riders would be better off on a bike like this than a current 4 stroke, I know I would!!  Any thoughts?  Thanks, Russ

[2smoker]

I know by racing experience that the banshee were having an hard time putting the power to the ground..way too much spinning..this is why the Honda 250r was ans still a better machine! There is also the weight factor,vibrations... and the maintenance cost.. The Gas Gas 300/ KTM300 are great enduro machine already! Athena Big-bore kit is also an option.. I heard that 285cc should be the best to compete against the 4 junk.

Here is a good article from MXA : http://maxpower-engines.com/media/pdf/YZ285%20MXA%2007-07.pdf

[MXLord327]

I agree that the KTM and Gas Gas 300's are great bikes, but $9000??  Yikes!!  And the 285 kit on the YZ pumps it up to about 50 HP, way more than I need.  I think the bike I detailed would be about 220 lbs, and not vibrate much more than a 250 because the rpm range would be lower.  With the older and simpler technology, it could easily sell for around $5000, with lower maintenance costs than anything currently made.

[Recovered]

You need to differentiate between HP and "rideability". My bike has 67 HP (go ahead and argue it, but do you OWN one???) and it is FAR easier to ride than anything else I've ridden. Part 3 is coming soon and I'll say more there.

BUT, if I were you (and I am not) I would KEEP the 98 YZ 250. I would send the suspension to someone who specializes in off-road dirt bike (not any one who advertises in the comic books) and have the suspension set up for your weight and riding ability and the terrain you typically ride on. This will do more good than anything, and should be less than $600.00. Next, a Steahly fly wheel weight. Again, relatively inexpensive (about $125.00 I think), but it tones the bike down, and makes it easier to get the power to the ground. Then, I would buy a Boyesen RAD valve. I have used the V-force system, and IMHO, the Boysen piece is substantially better for what you want. I think they are under $200.00. So it's very cost effective. Then I would buy my book (shameless self promotion here) about HOW to tune your 2 stroke (which is not written yet, but I am considering doing it), read it cover to cover, and then tune your bike correctly. I would also consider the carb mods you find at rb-designs.com as his stuff works. The last thing I reccomend is work with tire pressure. I am constantly STUNNED by guys who pump them up every now and then and never test pressure. This affects handling and geometry greatly.

So...let's do the math:
Suspension work:   600.00
Fly wheel weight:   125.00
RAD valve:            200.00
My book:                45.00
Total                    970.00

This is considerably LESS than the $5000.00 you wanted to drop. You can use the rest of the money to perfect your tune up (should be about $50.00 worth of brass), blow alittle of your wad for new graphics (like putting lipstick on a pig, but to each his own!) and spend the rest of your savings RIDING YOUR FREAKIN' DIRT BIKE. Entirely too much time and money is wasted by guys who "doll up" their steeds and never mount them. That is sad and dumb.

Last thing: I have never seen a dirt bike that didn't have an adjustable horsepower switch (umm, the THROTTLE) and a road speed lever (also known as the "shifter"). I don't say this to insult anyone. But if we spent MORE time riding and LESS time reading the comic books, we would all be better riders. And our outlook on life would be better (note to myself right there).

You have a great bike already. If you buy a new one, you still need the suspension tuned, it will still need to be jetted correctly and will probably need a flywheel weight. So your $5000.00 has quickly become $6000.00 The only one you will make happy is a manufacturer. And most of the manufacturers today could go flat broke and I wouldn't care, excepting Maico, Gas Gas, TM and Husky. That's just me though.

Remember, my thoughts are worth EXACTLY what you paid for them

Mad Scientist

[scottydog]

sounds like you need a KDX 350?

I'd buy one

[ford832]

You need to differentiate between HP and "rideability". My bike has 67 HP (go ahead and argue it, but do you OWN one???) and it is FAR easier to ride than anything else I've ridden. Part 3 is coming soon and I'll say more there.

OK,I'll bite and argue that.For future reference the best place to measure HP figures isn't at the sales brochure.
Likely that figure is arrived at due to a miscalculation of the conversion factor when going from the German newtons per frogwart to H.P.
BTW," the lipstick on the pig and dolling up a steed then mounting it" references made me rather uncomfortable
Now then MS,I wouldn't have ripped on you if I had gotten to read part three.Until that time,I feel free to wallow in my own crapulance.
 Seriously, MXlord, I'd agree with MS though I'd do it a little differently.What you have is one of the best off road bikes available.Everyone raves about KTM's and their good woods bikes(I've had them ) but it's just that they come pre set up.
The biggest single thing is suspension.If you send it off somewhere make sure you don't represent your ability as being more than it is to the tech or you won't be happy with the result.
Flywheel weight-definately.About a 10-12 oz would suit by the sounds of it.
Throttle cam.You can buy them but you can also adjust your own.Simply file the ramp down some where the cable rides.All this does is give you a longer throttle pull to reach full power but makes it far easier to modulate the power.You can mark it on your grip and housing then keep filing and checking until you get the desired result.
Next,get a dial gauge that will fit your plug hole so you can determine TDC and set your timing on about a 1 degree retard.This really smooths the power,adds a measure of detonation protection and is easy to do.Typically they are off from factory due to production tolerances and whatnot and are  too advanced.I know mine was.I can provide a good link for the procedure if you're interested.
As for a powervalve,many think this makes modern day bikes too abrupt but really all they do is broaden the power band-a definite good thing.If the bike hits too hard that's just because it's set up like an MXer.
After all this,you can adjust your gearing.If you now find it too soft off the bottom,add a tooth or two to the rear-if you want it softer yet,take one or two away.
What you should now have is a mellow,easily controlled but still powerfull, 2t,blue,more reliable,less expensive,KTM eater.Enjoy.

[Recovered]

I'm not sure that number is derived from a calculation. I'd email the factory, but Koestler's english keeps him from giving long answers to technical questions.

Maybe the question should be put to Vince at Maico International. He'd be as good as anyone to call BS on the numbers.

I do know that evryone likes to poo poo the numbers because they are barely getting that from top factory 4T's.

Rest assured, 67 HP from a 2T is considerably easier to ride than a 50 HP 4T. I have ridden both.

[MXLord327]

Madscientist - My post was more of a question to see if there was an interest in this type of bike, not a question so much for myself.  I have already done everything you mentioned to my YZ - Vforce 3 reeds, Steahly 9oz flywheel weight, FMF Gnarly pipe, mild cylinder porting, etc.  I also know many of the guys at Factory Connection Suspension by first name, I live 30 min from their main office in New Hampshire, I used to race with most of them including Ziggy, the owner, and their Tech Support/Testing guy (Zak) was the best man at my wedding.  So, my bike is set up as perfectly as a 12 year old motocrosser can be.  I just think in this economy where people are giving up racing at an exponential rate, that a lower tech, stone reliable, and very rideable bike under the $5000 price point could be a huge seller.  I will be keeping the YZ until this type of bike is made.

[JohnN]

MXLord327  - I understand exactly what you are asking for. A bike that can be sourced once by a manufacturer and sold for many years without needing "technological advancements". A machine for the average guy that just wants to blast around and have some fun, but have the opportunity to purchase a new machine at a reasonable price.

It sounds like a great idea, but sometimes those kind of machines never sell. Many manufacturers are afraid to build a machine like that, although I'm not sure of the reason.

Could it be that they think they won't sell? Or worse that they might undercut the sales of there other machines by such a factor that they would lose money?

It's a cool idea, but would probably have to be created by a small manufacturer.

I like the idea.

[MXLord327]

Ford382 - Once again, my main point was missed.  I was simply trying to see if there was interest in a bike like the one I detailed, I feel there would be a huge market for it.  I know my bike is great, that is why I bought it and have kept it for 4 years.  I have experimented quite a bit with timing on the YZ, and settled right back to the factory setting - it felt like it had the best combination of snap and smoothness.  I have tried the throttle cams, and to me they are a waste of money.  Flywheel weights over 9oz cause the bike to rev too slowly, so I went with the 9.  I also keep a range of sprockets on hand for different terrain and tracks, and I know how to adjust my suspension when changing from woods to track.  Please don't confuse my lack of blazing MX track speed with lack of experience & knowledge - yes I am a C rider, but I do have over 15 years of riding experience, and 8 years of racing.  I know how to jet/tune a 2 stroke, and set up suspension for rider weight, agressiveness, and terrain.  As for your comment about the power valve, I know it's purpose it to widen the power range, I simply thought that leaving it out would simplify top-end maintenance even further for the less-than-mechanically inclined, provide one less sytem to malfunction & maintain, and decrease production cost.  That is why I spec'ed a 350cc engine, in a state of tune somewere between a KDX and a YZ it should still have enough power for just about anyone (40-45 HP, with about 30-35 ft-lbs of torque), and be rideable for anyone above an absolute beginner even without the power valve complexity.  It could also be modified into a monster if that is what someone wanted.

John - Finally someone gets the point/question I was posing - thank you!!  That was my biggest concern about this type of bike, that the manufacturers will never build it because why sell a stone-reliable $5000 bike when you can sell a $9000 bike with a $2500 annual operating cost?  But just possibly in this economy, someon could see the value in getting people into the sport cheaply, and then keeping them in and creating brand loyalty, there is some value.  Just maybe....??

[Recovered]

Now that we are on the same page, I get what you are asking.

John is 100% correct. That bike will NEVER sell. If you want what would be the equivalent to a "KDX 350" you can get that in a Maico 320 (at one time they offered a 380 as well). The main difference is European handling and characteristics, and the fact that the controls are FAR better than on a Japanese bike. My 2004 has conventional forks on it. It doesn't really save any money. Also, power delivery with a European bike is as you are asking for. Specifically bikes like my 500. It is definitely not the same as a Japanese brand of any kind.

So, when you do the math, you can't produce a bike for the money you are talking about, for several reasons.

1. Componetry will not be so good.
2. The factories will skimp on important things like heat treating etc.
3. Exchange rates. In this corrupt world we have, the financial criminals are constantly screwing with money
       (I won't even get started on that) and punitively devalue currency. That's why Euro bikes are priced
       at a higher rate than Japanese stuff right now (including the above).

I will finish part 3 of my report, but I can already tell that most people will dispute what I say. In it, I will cite two specific incidents that may cause many to think I am fabricating my report. But, they are true. That said, no brand or size of dirt bike will make you a faster rider. Unless you understand it's capabilities, shortfalls and are willing to modify your riding characteristics to get the most from your bike.

So what you are asking for is there, just not at your price point.

[meger z]

iv got a ktm 350 2t with no power valve its a 1987 .Iv put a cr 500 carb on it and it runs nice, much better than the bing carb.The 350 was detuned and seems plenty of power for most conditions.   

[MXLord327]

MS - I do have some experience with Maico's - most of it very good.  In 1983 I raced a left-over 1982 250 (and a YZ125), I had one of the few in the US to not have any problems with the Corte & Cosso shock, mine worked fairly well.  I had the cylinder flow-bench ported by a company (I can't remember who) somewhere in the mid-west, and the motor was fantastic!!  The only real problem with the bike was the weight - I was only 16 and weighed about 150 and the bike was 240 dry!!  As far as not being able to meet my price point, the manufacturer of my theoretic bike could look at it like Wal-Mart does - a loss leader to get people turned on to their brand and into their showrooms - a brand new bike for about the price of a used 450 4 stroke.  The last year the KDX200 was produced, the retail price was $3999 I believe.  If any of the Japanese manufacturers wanted to, they could do it.  They won't simply because they don't want to lose sales of their $9000 bikes.  This is very short sighted, and in my opinion, bad business practice.

[ford832]

I'm not sure that number is derived from a calculation. I'd email the factory, but Koestler's english keeps him from giving long answers to technical questions.

Maybe the question should be put to Vince at Maico International. He'd be as good as anyone to call BS on the numbers.

I do know that evryone likes to poo poo the numbers because they are barely getting that from top factory 4T's.

Rest assured, 67 HP from a 2T is considerably easier to ride than a 50 HP 4T. I have ridden both.

Actually,I don't doubt that figure at all.I was simply yanking your chain a little solely for my own amusement.Oh well,It was worth a try

[ford832]

Ford382 - Once again, my main point was missed.  I was simply trying to see if there was interest in a bike like the one I detailed, I feel there would be a huge market for it.  I know my bike is great, that is why I bought it and have kept it for 4 years.  I have experimented quite a bit with timing on the YZ, and settled right back to the factory setting - it felt like it had the best combination of snap and smoothness.  I have tried the throttle cams, and to me they are a waste of money.  Flywheel weights over 9oz cause the bike to rev too slowly, so I went with the 9.  I also keep a range of sprockets on hand for different terrain and tracks, and I know how to adjust my suspension when changing from woods to track.  Please don't confuse my lack of blazing MX track speed with lack of experience & knowledge - yes I am a C rider, but I do have over 15 years of riding experience, and 8 years of racing.  I know how to jet/tune a 2 stroke, and set up suspension for rider weight, agressiveness, and terrain.  As for your comment about the power valve, I know it's purpose it to widen the power range, I simply thought that leaving it out would simplify top-end maintenance even further for the less-than-mechanically inclined, provide one less sytem to malfunction & maintain, and decrease production cost.  That is why I spec'ed a 350cc engine, in a state of tune somewere between a KDX and a YZ it should still have enough power for just about anyone (40-45 HP, with about 30-35 ft-lbs of torque), and be rideable for anyone above an absolute beginner even without the power valve complexity.  It could also be modified into a monster if that is what someone wanted.

John - Finally someone gets the point/question I was posing - thank you!!  That was my biggest concern about this type of bike, that the manufacturers will never build it because why sell a stone-reliable $5000 bike when you can sell a $9000 bike with a $2500 annual operating cost?  But just possibly in this economy, someon could see the value in getting people into the sport cheaply, and then keeping them in and creating brand loyalty, there is some value.  Just maybe....??

Ah so.My apologies but I assumed from your post that you found the YZ intimidating and hence were dissatisfied and longing for a kinder gentler beast.With the exception of the PV though,it does sound like you are describing a KDX.As you no doubt know,they are pretty mild stock but can be made to rip with minimal tuning.I'm surprised about the throttle cam though.I modified mine to add about 1/8 turn and find it to be the cats a$$ in the crawling mud/root sections where you just want to maintain forward momentum and no more.Maybe your terrain is different than what we have here.