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Offline 2smoker

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2010, 02:24:31 PM »
Hey read through this topic a little while back, just though I'd join and jump in!  :D

I'm a road bike fan so my views are more based on I like two strokes but unless they mean certain environmental standards then there is no way they can be licenced with increasingly stricker standards.

So for me I am totally for Direct Injection if it brings back a type of motorcycle which is more powerful per cc and lighter. I figure if they did then tuning firms would invest time in developing such bikes and it would be a win win for everyone involved.

Aparently the issue and reason why DI is not being pushed is that emission standards are still such that they can be met fairly easily with fourstrokes. If the standards get more strict, then it might become more attractive for advanced twostrokes to be developed.  8)







Hey look at this baby!! The Suter SRT 500 prototype was presented at Milano with the occasion of the 2009 EICMA show. The chassis is similar to that used on the Ilmor X3 and it is part of a real MotoGP bike that weighs 125 kg/ 275.5 lbs and benefits of precisely 200 hp developed by the two-stroke V4 of 500cc.

http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/suter-srt-500-v4the-gp-two-stroke-motorcycle-for-anyone-to-buy-ar81617.html

http://www.suterracing.com/
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 02:26:22 PM by 2smoker »
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2010, 03:32:58 PM »
Suter is simply a hard-core win.  If I didn't like the 1972 Kawasaki 750 so much, I'd have one of those bikes at the top of my list.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline 2smoker

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2010, 03:39:08 PM »
Suter is simply a hard-core win.  If I didn't like the 1972 Kawasaki 750 so much, I'd have one of those bikes at the top of my list.

I would like to hear that thing scream!
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline JohnN

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2010, 07:20:39 PM »
The folks over at MCN did a great article on DI, which also mention the Suter bike... if you haven't seen it yet, you may want to read this article....

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/two-strokes-strike-back/

As for listening to a 2,000cc two-stroke, you can get your jolly's here!

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/2000cc-v4-two-stroke-engine/

Although it was built for a flying machine!!
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Offline reefmuncher

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2010, 04:19:25 AM »

Hey look at this baby!! The Suter SRT 500 prototype was presented at Milano with the occasion of the 2009 EICMA show. The chassis is similar to that used on the Ilmor X3 and it is part of a real MotoGP bike that weighs 125 kg/ 275.5 lbs and benefits of precisely 200 hp developed by the two-stroke V4 of 500cc.

http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/suter-srt-500-v4the-gp-two-stroke-motorcycle-for-anyone-to-buy-ar81617.html

http://www.suterracing.com/


Damn now that's what I'm talking about!! Shame I'd never have the cash nor the balls to ride one!! Detune that baby slightly and put lights and a sidestand and you'd have a serious road bike!!

But going on the GP theme, wonder what it would take for a twostroke to beat one of the 800cc MotoGP machines? Technology has come along way and perhaps with traction control, tire technology etc it could be possible for a lighter 500cc twostroke to beat the 800's? When the 500's last raced they had to contend with 1000cc bikes which slowed them on the corners and then out dragged them down the straights. The newer 800's probably have a greater similarity in cornering styles and have 10-20 more horsepower with greater weight.

Put the last generation NSR500 engine in a 2010 developed chassis, something I guess the Suter represents with a good rider and development crew and I'm sure it could raise a few eyebrows! Maybe it might take another 100cc to do so, but Dorna blatently banned twostrokes really sucks! In 2012 MotoGP goes back to 1000cc with 4 cylinder fourstrokes, if they let 700cc or 800cc twostrokes in the mix that would be awesome!!!  8)


p.s.  Check this youtube clip for music to ears!!

Kawasaki H2 100HP Denco Cobra

Offline Helmut Clasen

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2010, 11:56:13 AM »
I think the Ossa injects into the crankcase, doesn't it?  Besides, I think there's been some talk about some special carb (3-circuit, was it?) that can match the emissions performance of injection without need for a laptop.  Because seriously, if something on a carb goes wrong, you can tear it apart and fix it.  If some little electrical thing gets fried in the injector, chances are you're gonna be SOL until you can wheel your bike up to someone with a few phD's in circuitry and computers, by which time your weekend will have long ago been ruined.  And that's assuming it goes wrong in camp.  What if it goes wrong out past the Devil's Tee (the magical intersection at which a bike always breaks down) and you're 20 miles from the truck?  With a carb you might have a chance at getting it fixed, but with an injector I suspect (though I'm not 100%) that it would be a bit more difficult.

I think that brake down behind repair 20 Km out can be happening on any dirtbike,old or new,carb or FI.
If that crank lets go,you are stranded and can only hope you are not allone. ;)
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Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2010, 03:44:11 PM »
Well yes, it's true that anything can break down.  However, there are something you can fix with duct tape and a brick, and some things that you can't.  There are also some things made up of microscopic bits of metal fashioned into an intricate pattern, and those which are simply carved out of a giant block of metal.  One time, the 120 stopped running about 30 miles from camp, and refused to run for more than 15 seconds at a time.  We fixed the problem with a paper-clip.

And that H2 triple seems to have a somewhat discomforting idle (feels like it's going to die any second) but DAMN does it sound nice on the pipe!


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline MMS

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2010, 12:15:42 AM »
And that H2 triple seems to have a somewhat discomforting idle (feels like it's going to die any second) but DAMN does it sound nice on the pipe!

Strangely enough I was going to comment that for me the video was spoiled by the poor tick over and low rpm throttle response.

But I though it would just make me sound like a grumpy old kill-joy!

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2010, 03:14:22 AM »
That's what I'm here for. ;-)


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline admiral

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2010, 06:41:12 AM »
And that H2 triple seems to have a somewhat discomforting idle (feels like it's going to die any second) but DAMN does it sound nice on the pipe!

Strangely enough I was going to comment that for me the video was spoiled by the poor tick over and low rpm throttle response.

But I though it would just make me sound like a grumpy old kill-joy!
i have a '74 H2 (green) and a '75 H2 (purple) and yes the low speed operation is nothing to write home about. it's just a piston port engine and like most H2's (like the one in the video) the stock air snorkle that connects the air box to the back of the carbs has been thrown away for "better performance". this makes the bike run even worse at low speed and it has horriffic intake noise with those pod filters. my '75 still had the stock airbox on it when i bought it 16 years ago but the '74 didn't. i remember when i ordered the snorkle for the '74 it was the last one available from Kawasaki HQ in Irvine, at least that's what the guy at headquaters said. that was back in 1994.

Offline MMS

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2010, 06:50:42 AM »
At least Kawasaki didn't loose the plot completely and fit it with CV carbs as Suzuki did with the GT 750.

Had one of them in last year to set up, nightmare!

Offline Suzuki TS250/185

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This is a rant, and it's LONG, LONG, LONG....
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2010, 09:52:35 PM »
Hello Everyone,

I can only speak for myself here, but I don't want a direct injection 2 stroke UNLESS it's going to make something available to us that we don't already have.

If it means NEW RD350's, RZ350's, S2's, S3's, H1's, H2's, Suzuki GT's instead of GS's and things like that, then I'm probably into it, until I have the opportunity to buy one of the originals. If all we'd be getting out of it is more homogenized versions of what we have already, then forget it. I've heard that D.I. makes a 2 stroke run a little more like a 4 stoke... That's all I have to hear to say "I'll Pass.." for the time being.

Because I love the way all my current bikes run right now, just the way they are... What more could D.I. bring to a YZ250 that it doesn't already have?

Would it produce better throttle response? Not likely, as the throttle response is already just short of telepathic.

Would it make the bike easier to start? Puh-Leeeeze.....

Would it be any easier to maintain? I don't guess so...

Would it make the bike lighter? I don't know, is one of those systems really lighter than the carb that's already on there, you think?

One of the most enjoyable aspects of riding a motorcycle is the act of metering the fuel mixture flow into the engine. A carburetor is a fairly simple device that makes this a very immediate, in your face experience. The rider has un moderated control of his machine. He can make a mess of everything or that thing can sing motown down, it's all up to the guy pulling on the throttle cable.

I just don't want to see another step in the direction of BORING, that's all. 2 strokes are the most exciting motorcycles to experience, by far, no doubt about it. Wallowing WAY behind that excitement is the rather bland and predictable experience of riding 4 stroke motorcycles. Yes, you still get down the track/trail/road on your mount, but they're not going to start rewriting the menu at Spark's any time soon, just because you can survive on baby food. Electric motorcycles aren't quite worth a mention in my opinion except maybe to demonstrate just exactly HOW boring and emasculated the experience of motorcycling can be made, for people who go to hell....    

When a significant addition to the complexity of a machine is made, the gains should be relative in value. If not they're not worth the added complexity in my opinion. I believe that in the case of the 4 stroke bikes, EFI was worth checking out because there were frustrating problems to be overcome with regard to the way the bikes ran. But even in that case, there have been losses to go along with the gains. They have engines with neater manners, but riders keep saying they lack the raw power of the carbureted bikes. When the hype settles, I'm not sure EFI is really exciting news unless you're a service department, or a guy who rides in Florida at the beginning of every week, then Pike's Peak at the end of every week. The systems are dependable but should there be a failure, are you going to fix it yourself? How were bikes of your machine's type working before EFI? Not very well? Then it's only right to go for it! If your bike was working EXTREMELY well with a carb, then there's a chance you'll end up as a fist prize sucker if you let someone replace a slide, needle, and a small assortment of ingeniously arranged orifices with a fuel injection system.  

My point is that if I was bummed out because 1/2 the time when I went to throttle my bike above idle, it flamed out like a carbureted 4 stroke does sometimes, or if it liked to occasionally stall in a corner and feel like it just dropped anchor as the rear wheel locked and dragged, maybe I'd be looking for an alternative fueling system... But, since I can't even remember the last time the fueling system on ANY 2 stroke has ever let me down, I'm just not looking. No thanks, I'll just keep my Mentos box of 70 cent brass jets and I'm fine.

REGARDING THE ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS...
I don't feel obligated to fret over the exhaust emissions of relatively tiny little dirt bikes, or any other bikes for that matter. Never have, never will. At displacements between 1/8 and 1/2 liter, I really don't think our bikes would be Mother Nature's biggest worry even if we each triple jumped a set of beached whales and landed on a rainforest telethon while carrying a sack of seal clubs, pipelines, and drilling rigs up north for hunting season. I've heard the chorus line of Kashi Gobblers, and Transworld KoolAid Kross California types singing about "Dirty", or "Smokey" 2 stroke engines, but I think we 2 stroke riders already do a lot to help our bikes run relatively clean.

Since our bikes use tuned exhaust and power valves (Except on those old Maicos and TS's) in conjunction with the intake to charge the cylinder from both upstream and downstream, some of the power band is quite efficient and unburned fuel loss is minimal. That's the part of the power band every rider seeks out and spends most of their time with, the sweet spot where the bike is most responsive. The inefficient part of the power band is the part that feels less responsive to the rider because the cylinder charge is less than ideal and riders can feel the lost potential, so we don't spend much time there.

Emissions tests can be run with all different types of test parameters, with a vast spectrum of results possible from the same engine. All engines have rpm ranges of peak efficiency for both power output and fuel usage/emissions. There are very large differences in efficiency, regarding both power output and fuel usage/emissions as a 2 stroke engine goes through it's rpm range, but that's a big part of why we love them. This also means you can test one and get either a very bad emissions sample, or a very good one, and all you have to do is change the rpm, engine load, or throttle position to get almost whatever result you're looking for.

I tune rich on purpose to keep engine temps down, my engines last for ever, and the smoke is just fine with me.

Thanks,

Jim
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 12:56:08 PM by Suzuki TS250/185 »
I think 4 stroke dirtbikes are a phase, kind of like "Glam Rock" in a way. You see the whole world subscribing to it, and you wonder how everyone could be choking down so much Kool Aid and Spam... Then 10 Years later, nothing's left but the timeless stuff from before and after..

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2010, 11:23:38 PM »
I'm not going to reply to all of this, simply because I don't have time, and I agree with most of it anyway.

Quote
At displacements between 1/8 and 1/2 liter, I really don't think our bikes would be Mother Nature's biggest worry even if we each triple jumped a set of beached whales and landed on a rainforest telethon while carrying a sack of seal clubs, pipelines, and drilling rigs up north for hunting season.

When I read this, I threw my head back, writhed with laughter, and gave a round of applause (all silently because my parents are sleeping.)  That said, I wonder if that's really true.  Though the engines are small, I've read sources saying they're 50x worse than a typical car.  I'm not sure if that number is really based on hard data, but if it is, it's very alarming indeed.  A bullet may be much smaller than a bean-bag chair, but I know which one I'd rather be hit with.

Also, I think a lot of the feel to the bike is still going to be up to the manufacturer.  A DI bike will have the potential to ride rather four-stroke-like, if you're having the majority of your combustion air staying in the cylinder staying there.  However, there's nothing saying that it couldn't be set up in such a way to give you the peaky powerband.  The goal of DI is to separate the air charge from the fuel charge.  If the air charge is treated just the way it is now, you could still lose some out the exhaust and you'll be getting changing power delivery depending on RPM and throttle (remember that throttle meters air, too).  DI makes it so that the effects of changing compression with RPM give you that good old classic feel, while not losing fuel out the exhaust, only air.  The short version:  DI lets you separate the air- and fuel-charge so that you don't have to waste gas and create excess emissions.

There are still the problems of maintenance - it's very worrying to me to have complex, non-mechanical things that require skilled shop technicians to work on (if indeed that will be necessary.)  While I'm optimistic about injection, I am more optimistic about the Boyesen design.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline reefmuncher

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2010, 04:35:04 AM »
Yeah interesting read there, for sure it's from an offroad point of view which to me as long as there are no regulations on emissions for offroad twostroke (or onroad racers) then DI is a unnecessary technology.....of course if in the end the system does develop into a very capable system.

However where I think if does do well is on road bikes where if it's not fourstroke, then you can't make them. Even a slightly sanitised DI two stroke is going to be better than a fourstroke and that's before the tuning guys get a chance to play.

Also one little point missing.........who ever said the bike had to be kept as a DI bike in the first place?!  ;D  It's the twostroke engine we're after one that's been registered for the road, as long as there's no one checking it's been played with who's to know!!  :P


Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Direct Injection - for and against
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2010, 04:18:51 PM »
That's a good point.  You're technically not supposed to run on the street with MX tires, but my dad runs his otherwise street-legal '78 Husky 360WR on the roads and the cops don't bother him about it.  They also aren't aware that the speedometer isn't hooked to anything, but they don't need to know that.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?