MZA Test ride 250SX

[2smoker]

Anyways, I raced my 250cc 2 stroke against the 450's and let me tell you that is twice the work at a racing pace.. 4 stroke have that grunt/torque power delivery than a 2 stroke would never have.. No mistakes are allowed.. The biggest advantage of the 2 stroke is the weight and flickability. And also.. 4 stroke are really good at making deep ruts like no tomorrow... it's unbelievable!

How can you say the 4T has more grunt/torque? It has 80% MORE displacement! No wonder it has more torque. It's not because it is technologically superior. It's just flat bigger. 250F'S get 100% and it's like people wonder why they are easier to ride. So, my suggestion to you is this: spend about 40-60 hours on a 500 2T.  Learn how to ride it. You will be less fatigued (I know, that right there goes against conventional wisdom, but it's still true) and SHOULD be able to ride faster on it. Bu YOU need to adapt to IT. It doesn't work the other way around. If you don't have the ability to procure a European 500, you can almost duplicate it with a KX 500 (it's a little tougher with the CR because it lacks a power valve). Put a pipe on it, dual stage reeds and the biggest flywheel weight you can buy. Spend the rest of your money LEARNING  to ride it. Then you will see what an unbelievable ruts looks like. Plus, the roost will keep everyone WAAAAAY behind you. 

I know what roost look/feel like coming from a rear tire of a 500cc 2 stroke! You guys are all pumped about 500cc 2 stroke...but I don't see them coming back soon in professional racing...sorry guys

[JohnN]

2smoker, I agree... as much as I'd like to see the big bore two-strokes come back into racing... I think that it will always be a much smaller segment of the racing community that will race them.

I've been saying for years that we need to get the 125cc two-stroke class separated from the 250F class. This is really the class for an up and coming racer to truly learn how to race motocross....

The 250 class MUST be straight up... no matter what. For those that say that it's not fair, how was changing the rules so they could compete in the first place fair? Seventy Two years of motocross history... changed over the past 12 years and now people "think" a four-stroke MUST be double the displacement. That rule has created more problems in motocross than almost anything we could talk about.

As for what total NZ talked about, that the 250F will still beat the 250 two-stroke, I admit it's possible. But with an asterisk... depends on the track and the racers involved. Honestly it's probably more rider than anything else. If the very best racers are all on four-strokes, yes they will beat the lesser skilled racers on two-strokes.

But remember there are some very good reasons why these racers choose the four-stroke, mostly the support they get from the manufacturers and/or dealers. Of course contingency money has a great deal to do with it as well. So it's pretty difficult to make any type of "blanket" statements one way or the other.

Just my $.02

[Recovered]

Anyways, I raced my 250cc 2 stroke against the 450's and let me tell you that is twice the work at a racing pace.. 4 stroke have that grunt/torque power delivery than a 2 stroke would never have.. No mistakes are allowed.. The biggest advantage of the 2 stroke is the weight and flickability. And also.. 4 stroke are really good at making deep ruts like no tomorrow... it's unbelievable!

How can you say the 4T has more grunt/torque? It has 80% MORE displacement! No wonder it has more torque. It's not because it is technologically superior. It's just flat bigger. 250F'S get 100% and it's like people wonder why they are easier to ride. So, my suggestion to you is this: spend about 40-60 hours on a 500 2T.  Learn how to ride it. You will be less fatigued (I know, that right there goes against conventional wisdom, but it's still true) and SHOULD be able to ride faster on it. Bu YOU need to adapt to IT. It doesn't work the other way around. If you don't have the ability to procure a European 500, you can almost duplicate it with a KX 500 (it's a little tougher with the CR because it lacks a power valve). Put a pipe on it, dual stage reeds and the biggest flywheel weight you can buy. Spend the rest of your money LEARNING  to ride it. Then you will see what an unbelievable ruts looks like. Plus, the roost will keep everyone WAAAAAY behind you. 

I know what roost look/feel like coming from a rear tire of a 500cc 2 stroke! You guys are all pumped about 500cc 2 stroke...but I don't see them coming back soon in professional racing...sorry guys

What you say is true. But it doesn't alter the fact that if the rules were fixed, you wouldn't see nearly as many 4T's out there. And if left alone (the rules) the 4T dirt bike would resume it's position in the industry as an anomaly, a relic for discussion of "remember those days" that we all laugh about.

Open class 2T's are not here because JAPAN wanted it that way. I refer you to what DC said in his reply to my article. I will tell you from personal experience: a "modern" 450 hampers your ability to go fast. But, we can all come on here and regurgitate what is barfed out by the industry, and then wonder why the young riders are so ignorant. History reveals the evils of Japan, and the desire to dominate business, as is evident in the history of motocross. The "modern" 4 stroke has done absolutely ZERO for off-road motorcycling. Period. No one has become a better rider, no one is going faster, and almost everyone has less money, less enjoyment  and MANY fewer places to ride. That is FACT. Mitch Payton (Pro Circuit owner) said 4 strokes did NOTHING except TRIPLE the cost of racing. Only a fool would argue with him.

[2smoker]

Interview with Mitch Payton: http://motocross.transworld.net/features/catching-up-with-mitch-payton/

Changing subjects a little bit, we sat down with the NPG last week. What are your thoughts on allowing a 250 two-stroke in the Lites class?
As far as Pro Circuit is concerned, how much of your business is still two-stroke?

[Recovered]

I'm sorry if the above post is too harsh for some. I'm personally so sick of hearing 4T lies and innuendo I'm ready to quit motorcycling all together. No matter how hard we work, or how much effort is put forth, the ignorant among us come out and defend the "modern" 4T. Do you remember when, every time a new bike came out, the comic books told us "It's F-1 technology"? Remember that? I do. And they have stopped. Because myself, and many many others wrote to the lying editors of the comic books and sent PROOF that not a single "modern" 4T EVER used anything resembling F-1 technology. They lied to YOU and YOU bought it (painting with a broad brush here). How many of you have seen F-1 technology, other than in a magazine? How many of you have seen the valve train of a Formula 1 engine? Just for the record, they are relatively small displacement engines, that last time I looked, don't even use valve springs! Have you seen that on your YamaZukiSakiHondaBergKTM? It's silly to see the same error repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, even though the corrections have been published.

I'm old enough now to where I really no longer give a damn if I help anyone learn anything. Essentially, the Japanese, with the consent of AMA and the American motorcycling public have won. I just don't care anymore.

And don't bother calling me a racist. I don't like anyone. I don't care who you are or where you come from.

M.S.

[Recovered]

Interview with Mitch Payton: http://motocross.transworld.net/features/catching-up-with-mitch-payton/

Changing subjects a little bit, we sat down with the NPG last week. What are your thoughts on allowing a 250 two-stroke in the Lites class?
As far as Pro Circuit is concerned, how much of your business is still two-stroke?

So, here you have it. MP is worried about losing business. I have lost all respect for this man, and won't buy anything from PC EVER again. Boo Hoo, the factories aren't making 2T's anymore. Ok that is a lie, and that's what I'm calling it. Lets see; Maico, Gas Gas, TM, Husky, KTM and Yamaha all make F'ing 2T's. And...Kawasaki is still producing them...for sale OUTSIDE the U.S.. I know for a fact HONDA is putting together 125's to race in Europe. Can anyone tell the truth anymore? Doesn't look like it. Looks to me like Mitch Payton loves to keep 300% more of YOUR money. In that, he is a crook and a cheat and a liar. He should be ashamed, but he doesn't have the morals to feel it. 

[2smoker]

I'm sorry if the above post is too harsh for some. I'm personally so sick of hearing 4T lies and innuendo I'm ready to quit motorcycling all together. No matter how hard we work, or how much effort is put forth, the ignorant among us come out and defend the "modern" 4T. Do you remember when, every time a new bike came out, the comic books told us "It's F-1 technology"? Remember that? I do. And they have stopped. Because myself, and many many others wrote to the lying editors of the comic books and sent PROOF that not a single "modern" 4T EVER used anything resembling F-1 technology. They lied to YOU and YOU bought it (painting with a broad brush here). How many of you have seen F-1 technology, other than in a magazine? How many of you have seen the valve train of a Formula 1 engine? Just for the record, they are relatively small displacement engines, that last time I looked, don't even use valve springs! Have you seen that on your YamaZukiSakiHondaBergKTM? It's silly to see the same error repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, even though the corrections have been published.

I'm old enough now to where I really no longer give a damn if I help anyone learn anything. Essentially, the Japanese, with the consent of AMA and the American motorcycling public have won. I just don't care anymore.

And don't bother calling me a racist. I don't like anyone. I don't care who you are or where you come from.

M.S.

M.S. I am in the same boat.. It gets really frustrating..My sport that I am so passionate about is dying big time. The nowadays squids can go ride four stroke because I won't.

[2smoker]

"2-strokes are easy to work on, inexpensive to own and a blast to ride," boasted FMF founder Don Emler. "FMF hasn't forgotten most of us ride because it puts a smile on our face. When the idea came along for the 2-Stroke invitational, FMF jumped at the opportunity to get back to the basics." F*ck Payton!

[2smoker]

We should get a privateer team up ! and race Supercross which the 250 really shine

[JohnN]

We should get a privateer team up ! and race Supercross which the 250 really shine

Ding, ding, ding.... we have a winner!!

This is the direction that we need to move in. Beating the factories with their overweight, over sized four-strokes at they're own game. Even if the two-stroke entry does not win, it would be great to see it finish in the top 20 or possibly even lower.

There is someone that is supposed to be racing a 250 two-stroke in Supercross this year. I've written to him but have not yet heard back. It would be very important for all of us two-stroke fans to help in anyway that we possibly can.

For the outdoor Nationals I'm working with some very smart folks to field a YZ250 in some of the events. How many will depend on the support we are able to get for the project.

Don't give up hope just because of silly stuff written in magazines or on the web. It's a real shame that these folks have stated a lie for so long that they have begun to believe it themselves.

Remember it will mean a great deal of lost income to some select people when we win!

[2smoker]

I bet my paycheck that a lot of companies related to 2 stroke will jump on the idea for sure...FMF, Wiseco, Boyesen,any oil brands.anything related to freestyle...the rebellion! That will be so awesome!

[TotalNZ]

Anyways, I raced my 250cc 2 stroke against the 450's and let me tell you that is twice the work at a racing pace.. 4 stroke have that grunt/torque  power delivery than a 2 stroke would never have.. No mistakes are allowed.. The biggest advantage of the 2 stroke is the weight and flickability. And also.. 4 stroke are really good at making deep ruts like no tomorrow... it's unbelievable!

I hear you 2smoker, i race against 450's also and a 250 2t will definately have trouble. The main advantage the 4bangers have is the huge amount of traction they get, they let you hold a high gear and launch at an obstacle straight out of a corner.

[JohnN]

Hey TotalNZ I'm confused! I thought in New Zealand the rules were 250 vs. 250? Why would you have to race a 250 two-stroke against a 450F??

The reason that they have the advantage you're talking about is because they are larger displacement, but you knew that already. Right? 

[TotalNZ]

Hey TotalNZ I'm confused! I thought in New Zealand the rules were 250 vs. 250? Why would you have to race a 250 two-stroke against a 450F??

The reason that they have the advantage you're talking about is because they are larger displacement, but you knew that already. Right? 

Yeah it's all 250's in one class now but you can still ride one in the open class against 450's if your keen enough. There's also a 125 only class now which i reckon's a great idea and i wouldn't mind racing in.
Yeah i know it's the CC's making the difference

[JETZcorp]

So here's a question.  You say you can ride 250 in the 250 class or in the 450 class if you've got the balls.  Would it be possible, then, to show up in the 450 class with a 450 2T?  If so, I'd like to see someone arrive on a 430 Husky or 440 Maico and start kicking some ass.  I'm guessing that's still not allowed, though.