Coming Soon
Home > Forum


Author Topic: Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought  (Read 9864 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2T Institute

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2013, 04:49:48 PM »
A buddy of mine has a Husky 310 with fuel injection.  Brand new.  Had to get it remapped just to change the pipe.  And the dealer screwed it up the first time they tried.  Imagine joe schmo trying to do it in his garage.

Erm just get a Power Commander

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Dirtsaw

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2013, 05:49:45 PM »
Cars/trucks don't come with carbs because of the EPA...  Some people will like EFI, some won't.  Some say it will make a 2 stroke more 4 stroke like. Who the hell wants that?  Some say it's simpler....  Until something in the system goes out.  Good luck finding that problem.  Diagnosing car issues is next to impossible with all the computerized crap.  Not that a bike would be anywhere near as complex, but still....  Guess I'll get me some deals on those old carb bikes when the EFI bikes are released.  Are catalytic converters next for dirt bikes?  Computer controlled suspension?  That'll sure make em better..   I'm old and not friendly to change.  I figure what works awesome now doesn't need changing.  But it'll make for new marketing strategies....
 

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Micahdogg

  • Intermediate
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2013, 07:12:38 PM »
EFI is a superior form of metering fuel.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is living under a rock.  EFI would be a nice addition to a smoker.

BTW, you can't really compare the infancy of EFI to what will be in another 5-10 years.  When EFI hit the automotive world, it wasn't a slam dunk in the first year.  Fastforward through the crude Throttle Body Injection of the 70's, to the "atari" type systems of the 80's and finally in the 90's you start getting some real control.  Bikes will evolve the same way.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
2011 KTM 250SX, 1986 ATC250R

Offline Dirtsaw

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2013, 07:33:45 PM »
It's cozy under my rock!  No thanks, you can have my share of bikes when it hits..

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Micahdogg

  • Intermediate
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2013, 07:42:46 PM »
I didn't say I wanted one...I still prefer carbs. 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
2011 KTM 250SX, 1986 ATC250R

Offline factoryX

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 855
  • Hurry! Follow the other farting sheep!
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2013, 07:45:26 PM »
EFI is great and wonderful but are full of headaches. As for carbs being more dirty, my ass. Modern carbs (not even talking about smart carbs) are just as or slightly less efficient than EFI. With a decent carb set up on a car it will only get 1-2mpg less than an EFI set up.

Some say it will make a 2 stroke more 4 stroke like. Who the hell wants that?
Uh plenty of people, why they went to 4 strokes to begin with nevermind they've been developed to mimic a two stroke delivery. And you're looking at the two stroke the wrong way. The reason why the two stroke engine is awesome is its tunabillity. You can set it up to run like a trials motor or a top fuel funny car. All EFI would do is work with that. As for its complications, EFI is annoying. Its awesome once its going, but you'll have to make as many changes as you would fiddling with a carb after installing a performance part. After a point you have to ask why? I am both for and against EFI, I think I'll stick with a smart carb, they're results are amazing for both 2/4 stroke. People are even converting EFI set ups back to carb just to run one. GasGas contacted APT after seeing the success on the gasgas forums, and are debating about running them on their bikes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »


I ride an 03 yz250, wait 04, wait 05, what ever, they're all the same #$@% YOU!

Offline Dirtsaw

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2013, 08:12:48 PM »
That's great.  Just like Dungy and his new air forks?  Heh.  No one is arguing a computer can't do a better job at air/fuel mixtures.  I just don't want to see it as the only option someday because of the added expense and guess work.  Jetting charts are a no brainer and jetting can be changed inside of 10 minutes no matter where you are without some electronic device wand batteries.. 

WTFactoryX are you the dude in Bend, OR???  If so are you ridin the ISDE this weekend?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline vetman

  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2013, 10:24:48 PM »
Good arguments but what I took out of this is setup setup setup get the bike handling sorted, then play with the engine ,we have all known for a long time that only 2% of riders can ride a 450 engine to its true potential and even if your 2t isn't the most powerful of the bunch suspension and rider comfort will have you still on the pipe while the others are flagging with there efi and poorly set up machines. Dont get me wrong I would love to see the development of a efficient reliable efi for 2ts but the big question is do we really need it ? is there other areas that money could be put into or used to bribe the world bodies to reintroduce 2ts to the top level
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline fabbo

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2013, 10:41:46 PM »
Hi WTFactoryX. I have been looking up google to find a smart carb no results. It is only on my iphone but can you please share more info as to who makes them and so on. I found your comments very helpful and interesting. This site has such a good and professional style of info in it. I like technology so do not get me wrong but I prefer the KISS principle especially for off road enduro bikes. This smart carb you mention just may look into getting one for my Yz 250 01 model if it is possible to convert to a smart carb.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Jeram

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2013, 12:21:39 AM »
Just google ApT (American performance technologies) smart carb
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Suzuki TS250/185

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 159
  • No Thanks
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2013, 12:33:52 AM »
The carburetor on the typical two stroke motorcycle engine is extremely unlikely to fail, because it does it's complex job with very few moving parts, no stupid fuel pump, and with the fuel and the air both at atmospheric pressure.

Apart from the fuel and air, notable moving parts are the float assembly and valve, the slide with it's attached needle, and the spring between the top of the slide and the cap which returns the slide and needle to the closed position along with, or in the absence of gravity, when the throttle is closed. Those are the full time workers, the choke slide is a part timer who hardly has to do anything.

Because of that robust simplicity, carburetor failures are so unlikely that it's almost like worrying that you won't get to go riding because of a catastrophic number plate failure... In all the time I've had bikes and hung with groups of people who rode, I have never known "Carburetor failure" to stop a ride from taking place or end one suddenly with no way home. Both of those scenarios seem pretty remote, judging from my own experience and that of everyone I know.

But don't take my word for it, do a fun study of your own! - Go to "The Motocross Vault" on YouTube and dig up ALL of the great 2 Stroke motocross and supercross races you can find and watch them all. - You'll be waiting a REALLY long time (Forever) before you're watching a race and you see someone grind to a halt due to "Carburetor Failure". You'll probably be waiting even longer than that before you're watching a 2 Stroke race at the drop of the gate, and one guy's bike just sits there, engine suddenly dead due to "Carburetor Failure", while he kicks and kicks.

To see those kind of funny failures happen with some regularity, you have to fast forward to more recent Foopercross and Mowercross, and the handicapped, crutch bristling barges of today's weak scene. The complicated, stupid fuel injection systems that were supposed to be a bandaid and a shot of caffeine for the lumpy and flawed induction and power curve of the Fooper, fail like balloons in a preschool. I don't even watch modern pro MX and SX that much because of how boring it is, but I've seen Justin Barcia, Ryan Dungey, John Dowd and Vince Friese and many more pro riders each end up stranded on the starting line (Barcia more than once!) because their ultra-dependable Rube Goldberg fuel system crapped out suddenly..... And that was after a whole squad of professional wrenches had hunched over the junk for hours and days preparing! Where would that leave someone who doesn't have a squad of professional wrenches?

Oh... I can't WAIT for that trouble-free fuel injection!



His bike wasn't going anywhere.... And speaking of bikes that don't seem to be going anywhere...



I'm not trying to muckrake, but there's a lot of BS that people spew about all the problems "You're going to have", with a carbureted bike and they are almost always fairytales or miss labeled, unrelated problems. Then you get the same people singing hymns about fuel injection and making false comparisons that use Foopers or some "SS A.A.R.P." center console fishing boat engine as examples.

When Foopers with fuel injection were first introduced, the hype was "You'll never have to worry about anything fuel mixture related ever again, because the system with adjust to anything"

BUT, then that turned out not to be true, because the bikes needed to be adjusted to deal with heavy load conditions like deep sand and some other things like that, usually to richen the mixture and keep the operating temps from spiking so high that the pieces of crap would eat themselves alive .... SO they started including alternate couplers and other poo, so that those Fuel Injected Foopertroopers could "Re Jet" their bikes for those special conditions. ...So as it turned out, they still have to tune and "Jet" their Foopers occasionally, and they get a reduction in reliability and serviceability, an increase in weight, and an increase in cost in the not-a-bargain to go along with it.

And the hype that 4 stroke trolls like to harp on about how you CONSTANTLY have to keep trying to jet your 2 stroke.... Well, that's a load a manure too.

On a 2 stroke streetbike, do you really think you'd have to start by jetting your bike in Seaside Heights, then stop in Easton, PA and re jet because you gained some elevation, then stop again in Hazleton, PA to re-jet again??? No, you wouldn't... You'd be too busy just riding along and enjoying yourself.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
I think 4 stroke dirtbikes are a phase, kind of like "Glam Rock" in a way. You see the whole world subscribing to it, and you wonder how everyone could be choking down so much Kool Aid and Spam... Then 10 Years later, nothing's left but the timeless stuff from before and after..

Offline Stusmoke

  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2013, 12:54:13 AM »
"Stuism"

LOL

I like it :D

Its too far back to quote but the one VBS posted with the stuism remark in it I agree with. Its especially useful on long treks where you could be going up and down several thousand feet.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline citabjockey

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 145
    • View Profile
    • Yamaha Vintage Enduros
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2013, 03:44:51 AM »
Ok, TS -- quit beating around the bush and tell us what you REALLY think!

But, all kiddin aside, you make some very strong arguments. Not the least of which was the fact that you really don't have to mess with a two stoke bike's jetting once its really setup. I don't know that I have ever messed with different jetting (other than dropping a needle one notch to ride at 8000') for "local conditions".

On the other hand, most folks never have to think about their FI automobile engines. And they don't break at the start line either (or when you go to pull out of the garage to drive to work). That's the magic of large sample sizes and years of testing -- a hurdle the FI bikes have yet to clear. I can confidently predict that when the FI on these four strokes is as common as that on cars it will not be breaking -- at least not at the rate it seems to now.

Now, if I could have my two stroke motocross bike, AND my two stroke single track tail bike, and my two stroke dual sport bike and -- heaven fobid -- by two stroke street bike I will be one smoking happy camper. Problem is that all save the first example I can't have them in CA.  We may all have our opinions on environmental regulations but the fact remains they are here to stay and they are quite probably going to get even more strict. So, for me to have my two stroke cake and ride it too my bike would probably have to have a system cleaner that what you can manage with a carb. I would be fine with a carb.  I have been for years. BUT I can't have the bikes I want with them.

So if FI/DI or some other wizzbang upgrade appears that can hoist the valveless wonder motor onto the green sticker pedestal , AND it doesn't break every 10 hours...

I am going to buy one.





The carburetor on the typical two stroke motorcycle engine is extremely unlikely to fail, because it does it's complex job with very few moving parts, no stupid fuel pump, and with the fuel and the air both at atmospheric pressure.

Apart from the fuel and air, notable moving parts are the float assembly and valve, the slide with it's attached needle, and the spring between the top of the slide and the cap which returns the slide and needle to the closed position along with, or in the absence of gravity, when the throttle is closed. Those are the full time workers, the choke slide is a part timer who hardly has to do anything.

Because of that robust simplicity, carburetor failures are so unlikely that it's almost like worrying that you won't get to go riding because of a catastrophic number plate failure... In all the time I've had bikes and hung with groups of people who rode, I have never known "Carburetor failure" to stop a ride from taking place or end one suddenly with no way home. Both of those scenarios seem pretty remote, judging from my own experience and that of everyone I know.

But don't take my word for it, do a fun study of your own! - Go to "The Motocross Vault" on YouTube and dig up ALL of the great 2 Stroke motocross and supercross races you can find and watch them all. - You'll be waiting a REALLY long time (Forever) before you're watching a race and you see someone grind to a halt due to "Carburetor Failure". You'll probably be waiting even longer than that before you're watching a 2 Stroke race at the drop of the gate, and one guy's bike just sits there, engine suddenly dead due to "Carburetor Failure", while he kicks and kicks.

To see those kind of funny failures happen with some regularity, you have to fast forward to more recent Foopercross and Mowercross, and the handicapped, crutch bristling barges of today's weak scene. The complicated, stupid fuel injection systems that were supposed to be a bandaid and a shot of caffeine for the lumpy and flawed induction and power curve of the Fooper, fail like balloons in a preschool. I don't even watch modern pro MX and SX that much because of how boring it is, but I've seen Justin Barcia, Ryan Dungey, John Dowd and Vince Friese and many more pro riders each end up stranded on the starting line (Barcia more than once!) because their ultra-dependable Rube Goldberg fuel system crapped out suddenly..... And that was after a whole squad of professional wrenches had hunched over the junk for hours and days preparing! Where would that leave someone who doesn't have a squad of professional wrenches?

Oh... I can't WAIT for that trouble-free fuel injection!



His bike wasn't going anywhere.... And speaking of bikes that don't seem to be going anywhere...



I'm not trying to muckrake, but there's a lot of BS that people spew about all the problems "You're going to have", with a carbureted bike and they are almost always fairytales or miss labeled, unrelated problems. Then you get the same people singing hymns about fuel injection and making false comparisons that use Foopers or some "SS A.A.R.P." center console fishing boat engine as examples.

When Foopers with fuel injection were first introduced, the hype was "You'll never have to worry about anything fuel mixture related ever again, because the system with adjust to anything"

BUT, then that turned out not to be true, because the bikes needed to be adjusted to deal with heavy load conditions like deep sand and some other things like that, usually to richen the mixture and keep the operating temps from spiking so high that the pieces of crap would eat themselves alive .... SO they started including alternate couplers and other poo, so that those Fuel Injected Foopertroopers could "Re Jet" their bikes for those special conditions. ...So as it turned out, they still have to tune and "Jet" their Foopers occasionally, and they get a reduction in reliability and serviceability, an increase in weight, and an increase in cost in the not-a-bargain to go along with it.

And the hype that 4 stroke trolls like to harp on about how you CONSTANTLY have to keep trying to jet your 2 stroke.... Well, that's a load a manure too.

On a 2 stroke streetbike, do you really think you'd have to start by jetting your bike in Seaside Heights, then stop in Easton, PA and re jet because you gained some elevation, then stop again in Hazleton, PA to re-jet again??? No, you wouldn't... You'd be too busy just riding along and enjoying yourself.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
Yamaha CT3, RT3, MX125, SC500, Toy Prius, Diesel F250 (it all balances out)

Offline factoryX

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 855
  • Hurry! Follow the other farting sheep!
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2013, 04:08:55 AM »
That's great.  Just like Dungy and his new air forks?  Heh.  No one is arguing a computer can't do a better job at air/fuel mixtures.  I just don't want to see it as the only option someday because of the added expense and guess work.  Jetting charts are a no brainer and jetting can be changed inside of 10 minutes no matter where you are without some electronic device wand batteries.. 

WTFactoryX are you the dude in Bend, OR???  If so are you ridin the ISDE this weekend?
WTF, I keep forgetting to check OMRA. Have a link?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »


I ride an 03 yz250, wait 04, wait 05, what ever, they're all the same #$@% YOU!

Offline Dirtsaw

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2013, 05:25:45 AM »
http://www.omraoffroad.com/

Too late for the ISDE.  Numbers came out last night and no post entry.  I'm on minute 5.  Next race out there is at the ODOT pit and it's a Hare & Hound 108 miles on May 19th...  It's on the OMRA schedule as the Monkey Butt XC...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »