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Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2011, 08:30:07 AM »
looks like a money making opportunity to me!

Quote
Ok, here is a wild thought for us that don't want the computer dictating the bike's behavior. Have a USB (or even bluetooth!) port on the DI computer and the manufacturer can give/sell you software that would present a bunch of knobs - a knob that looks like a needle clip position, a knob that looks like a pilot jet, main jet, a power valve, etc. Maybe a timing advance curve you can drag around, shift the injection timing, the list is endless!

08 Speed Bird Quad 110, 08 KTM 144, 04 Suzuki LT-Z400, 03 Gas Gas EC, 300,97 Honda CR144, 96 Husky Boy 50, 88 Husky 400WR, 86 Honda CR125R, 80 Can-Am MX6 400, 75 Husky 360CR, 75 Husky 175CC, 73 Penton Jackpiner 175, 72 Husky 250CR, 72 Husky 125, 72 Rickman-Zundapp 125, (2) 71 Bultaco Pursang Mk

Offline evilscientistmoose

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2011, 01:30:39 PM »
There's a small problem with every argument in this thread:

You aren't thinking 'big picture'.

Motorcycles are a pimple on an elephant's rear, according to the general public, anyway. I love bikes, you people love bikes, we know what they do for us. The non-riding public? Not so much.

I lack R&D resources. I lack engineering ability. I do not lack for ideas, however.

The problem here is getting rid of 4-stroke engines in automobiles.

To that end, my son (factoryX) and I are kind of screwing around with alternative engine designs for cars. One proposal is to use four head/jugs from Banshee engines, and create a V8 using as many Banshee parts as possible, but join them together in a common, V8 case. Plan 1A is to use 8 CR500 jugs, and using the stock CR500 stroke, that gets you around a 4.6L displacement. Given that a pissed-off CR500 can push well north of 60hp....multiply that times 8, and when you have multiple cylinders assisting in rotating the crank....my fuzzy math gets me somewhere between 400-800 hp.

Plan 2? Utilize ANY 4-stroke engine as a foundation; use both the intake and exhaust valves as an intake source, and by using engineering calculations that I have no idea how to use, position an exhaust port similar to where you'd normally find one in a regular two-stroke engine. Basically, it's the reverse of a GMC 2-stroke diesel, but you convert existing 4-stroke gas (or diesel, imagine what firing twice as much during 4000 rpm will do for a Cummins 5.9 diesel would do) engines over to a two-stroke, and you'd eliminate having to run intake air through the crankcase, like you would on a normal 2-stroke. Use a reverse centrifigal supercharger, or belt-driven turbo to extract exhaust out of the engine....any engine, using both the intake and exhaust ports for intake air, and if you couple this with a variable-plane intake, which runs intake charge through the exhaust port during low rpm for max torque, switches to the intake valve for midrange, and then opens up both intake ports at full throttle....add to this variable cam timing....my God, think of the power possibilities, if you could make this all work. Yes, you're using everything from the 4-stroke engine (the intake and exhaust valves open at the same time), but you're doubling the amount of times the plug fires.

Basically, you get the idea. It's sort of a cheap hybrid of the two types of engines. I normally thought about doing this myself, but I'm an 'idea' guy, and don't have the resources or ability to make it happen.

Offline citabjockey

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2011, 12:53:41 PM »
I don't think two strokes are going to be ok in the average car. The holes in the cylinder make life rough on the rings. I have 150000 miles on my toyota and it doesn't use a drop of oil. I don't think you could count on that for a 2T -- even if it was a detuned as much as the typical cage engine. Of course, if top end rebuilds are as easy as they are on 2T maybe that really isn't an show stopper?

Typical 4 cylinder econo car makes around 120 HP, right? Again, toss a skidoo 600cc DI engine at that car -- it drops several hundered pounds of weight and lots of rube-goldberg valve gear complexity. Hmmmmm.....

So a Honda S2000 with a SkiDoo 800 Etec, 160HP and again looses a couple of hundred pounds. Sounds like a fun sports car to me!
Yamaha CT3, RT3, MX125, SC500, Toy Prius, Diesel F250 (it all balances out)

Offline Kodackamera

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2011, 04:51:31 AM »
Or a lotus elise! ahaa, imagine these cars with some suping up, 2t D.I. style.
"The 500 is another world. The bike come from another world."
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Offline citabjockey

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2011, 06:51:42 AM »
Fun to think about but a KTM300 / GasGas 300 DI is really where I want to go!!!!!
Yamaha CT3, RT3, MX125, SC500, Toy Prius, Diesel F250 (it all balances out)

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2011, 08:18:58 AM »
I don't think two strokes are going to be ok in the average car. The holes in the cylinder make life rough on the rings. I have 150000 miles on my toyota and it doesn't use a drop of oil. I don't think you could count on that for a 2T -- even if it was a detuned as much as the typical cage engine. Of course, if top end rebuilds are as easy as they are on 2T maybe that really isn't an show stopper?

Typical 4 cylinder econo car makes around 120 HP, right? Again, toss a skidoo 600cc DI engine at that car -- it drops several hundered pounds of weight and lots of rube-goldberg valve gear complexity. Hmmmmm.....

So a Honda S2000 with a SkiDoo 800 Etec, 160HP and again looses a couple of hundred pounds. Sounds like a fun sports car to me!
Pretty sure, if you made a 350 CI 2 stroke, detuned it to run at say 4,000 RPM max, it would last just fine.  We are used to race motors with race rings and pistons, that run at 8,000 + RPM.  They are made light and single ringed most cases now.  Double ringed heavier piston, lower rpm and you would be good.  Remember, diesels are basically 2 strokes, atleast the older style.  having the ports we know isn't the same is what you would get in a vehicle. We'd have valves etc. Be somethig liike my old  VW rabbit that went 300k
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Fightin the system like a 2 stroke modern day Robin Hood!

Offline factoryX

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2011, 01:45:53 PM »
Ah but the average car isn't out to win races. Using a 4 stroke v8 block(or any block) converted to two stroke, you would have the same reliability as the 4 stroke with twice the power. The crank itself is lubricated, and the cylinder walls are sealed and lubricated by oil splash. So in other words we just eliminated the 2 stroke oil issue which is a problem is it not for EFI/DI?  :P  But whats even cooler is that you no longer need huge ass freaking motors to get a ton of horse power, you could get 400-500hp+ from a naturally aspirated 2.0ltr!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 02:46:16 PM by factoryX »


I ride an 03 yz250, wait 04, wait 05, what ever, they're all the same #$@% YOU!

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2011, 05:47:05 PM »
We are not going to get 2 strokes in cars.
Cars run most of their lives at part throttle and four strokes do that quite well.
They are still inefficient at part throttle running but way better then a 2 stroke.
Turbo diesels are the most efficient at part throttle.
The only way a 2 stroke would work well is if the exhaust was tuned to operate at 1500-2500RPM where most cars spend their lives.
Turbo it and put a CVT transmission on it and it would work very well. (Sounds a bit like a Detroit.)
Then you would have a car with a very small engine.
Be a bit boring tho.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline DESERTFOX19

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2011, 07:27:44 PM »
 They had 2 Stroke cars called SAAB. Look on youtube and you will see them.

Offline citabjockey

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2011, 08:09:11 PM »
you can do this but you need a blower to run carnk oil below the pistons.
Yamaha CT3, RT3, MX125, SC500, Toy Prius, Diesel F250 (it all balances out)

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2011, 10:06:08 PM »
They had 2 Stroke cars called SAAB. Look on youtube and you will see them.

Yep.
And Suzuki and Messerschmitt and Zundapp and Fiat and the most famous of them all the Trabant.
There has been quite a few.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline Bioflex

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2011, 05:28:50 AM »
There is an article in the latest edition of Adb - Australia's biggest dirt bike magazine about direct injection.
Most importantly, an Aus rep for KTM confirms that KTM have a working prototype of a Di 300 and that they're just waiting on emmisions regs to be reset before they launch the bike - obviously to ensure it's relevant.

Most likely it'll be out in 2013, however Ossa are likely releasing they're fi trail bike in 2012, it's not di though, rather throttle body injection.

Though the waiting game is frustrating it really does look as if we'll have something soon

Offline SachsGS

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2011, 07:28:04 AM »
I'll never figure it out - you've got these gigantic corporations in Japan churning out all these boring 4T$ and a microscopic company in Spain building a FI 2T trials bike that is a work of art.I can't wait to see Ossa's offroad bike for 2012! ;D

Offline EJ

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2011, 07:56:43 AM »
Indeed, the Ossa fuel injected enduro bike will be interesting...
The Japanese could do that too, but i don't see it happen from them in the near future.

Offline ChrisMX3417

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Re: HOPE FOR 2 STROKES!
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2011, 02:49:50 PM »
Perhaps after a few years of DI, more work can be done developing them and tuning them when they emerge in racing for example.

Two strokes need something to start back on again, at least they will start again with something. Nothing happens overnight. Kaaden didn't stop developing chambers through all his difficulties, he could have flopped because it was difficult to start off.

The most highly tuned engines are rarely the smoothest. Imagine the potential in the future, after development wait till they get multi-cylinder designs rolling!

How will any development take place if people mention "It's D.I. it's not the same as it was" that is what will harm the two stroke much less a smooth powerband. Nothing's the same as it once was, at every moment in the world, things change, if we don't, we get left behind, so we may as well make the changes our way.

It's up to us, fans, designers, technicians, racers, to make it happen.

Generally, variable exhaust and intake geometry limit maximum flow of gas that would otherwise be attainable. For example, traditionally, Disc valves offered more maximum performance over reed valves. Two stroke engines of the future may well use variable geometry, but variable to different degrees...They need not be the same from scooter to sportsbike to enduro. The exact same throttle bodies and butterfly designs need not be fitted to every single D.I. two stroke. Mechanical limitations always apply regardless of "the evil/magic of the computers!!"

Even if sportsbikes were restricted, who's to say people could not develop components and systems to make the engines shine! People, especially over a certain age, fear the electronics and the advance of them (no pun intended), when you consider that the average person is likely to become more computer literate in the future, I see that in a small way, power can be given back to the average person/enthusiast as the cycle comes back and we understand what we are dealing with. It's up to us.
Direct Injection is the future