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Offline graham472

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Two versus Four
« on: February 20, 2010, 08:24:46 PM »
Dirt Action magazine just ran a lites bike test (250f and KTM150/YZ144). Some interesting comments came out of the test I'd like to share with you all. By the way a 4 stroke was declared the winner.

Test Conclusion KTM150/YZ144 - Roll on torque and better hook-up on acceleration - that's all that stops riders from pulling the same lap times as a 4 stroke. (my comment - fair enough conclusion and true but maybe a lack off 100cc has something to do with it, I'd love to see a CRF150 up against a KTM150 that would be fun!!)

Riders opinions on the 2 strokes;
KTM150
"This bike is so much fun. You forget just how good it is to ride a well set-up two-stroke and really get stuck into it. It makes great power, steers well and just feels like it wants to be raced. Every kid should ride a two-stroke at some point in their careers" CU

"This little bike was a complete shock and is so cool to ride. In the hands of a light guy on the right track, I reckon this thing would do some damage" JM

"It makes enough bottom-end that I didn't need to clutch it much, which is awesome for a small two-stroke. I also like the way it felt so light and nimble around the track and I could muscle it if I had to" BC

YZ144
"This is the sort of bike you just want to have in the shed for fun days. If I wasn't racing I'd be back on one of these, purely for the fun factor. It screams, turns and sounds unreal and still gets around the track bloody fast. The cheaper and easier maintenance is also a huge bonus" BF

"Awesome everything; couldn't fault it. The engine is so strong when kept in the mid and the bike is so light it could be whipped around and pointed and moved in the air so easily. the brakes are great, the riding position is great and it was easily the most enjoyable bike of the day for me" JM

"CU was out on the KTM150 while I was on the 144 and I just couldn't help but wanna race him. Thats what this bike did for me. I just wanted to ride it as fast as I could, whip it as hard as I could over the jumps and try to scrape the bars in every turn" NC

Sounds like they all had a blast on the two-strokes!!

Finally the magazines take on two versus four;

"Let's answer the question of all time: two versus four-stroke? We polled every rider on the test day and the answer was always the same, almost to the word; "If I was buying a bike to just have fun, I would take the two-stroke. If I am buying a bike to win races , it has to be a four-stroke" The real answer to this question has already been answered by you. The public lapped up the four-stroke from its introduction, as sales of two-strokes ground to a halt. People power has spoken.
What the four-stroke has going for it is the latest technology, more power over a wider area, more stable handling, better hook-up, more aftermarket accessories and a better resale value. Put simply, it is an easier bike to ride faster.
In the two-stroke corner, the fun factor, lightness of bike, lower cost of running and simplicity of design all make it a worthwhile proposition. They are still great fun and a good rider will do similar lap times- it's just that you will always will be coming from behind.
In 2010, the lites class will even allow 250cc two-strokes to compete against the 250cc four-strokes and it will be interesting to see how things pan out, although my lunch money is still on the four-banger."

Phew that was long winded. Thats an Aussie magazines view.


Offline luthier269

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 08:49:04 PM »
It would be nice to have the riders actually race these bike and then see what they have to say. As some know my son races one of the slower 125's and in the D class got the hole shot four times in a row against new 250Fs, Now in the 250C class its been about mid pack but he has only raced once so far and there were a few 250 twostrokes. It still has alot to do with the rider.But I would like to think that late in the race the lighter twostroke would be a plus,Also I can't tell you how many times i've seed a rider lead most of the race and fall over in a corner and not be able to restart the four stroke and come in last! So there are many factors not touched but the article.
Motocross is a real sport all the rest are just games

Offline Chris2T

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 09:20:38 PM »
still a real head scratcher - 4 strokes can't compete head to head, yet given a handicap they are declared the winner?  ???

And i wouldn't put much stock into that "people power has spoken" mass rush to buy 4 strokes. Riders jumped all over the fact that they could have double the engine size of the other guy. 

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2010, 02:52:36 AM »
Did anyone else notice that the author thinks four-strokes have better resale value?  I don't know about you, but I think your average Joe will pay more for a perfect 150cc two-stroke than a blown-up 250cc four-stroke.  Because let's face it, that's the way those two bikes would be entering the used-bike market.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline SwapperMX

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2010, 03:24:42 AM »
It would be nice to have the riders actually race these bike and then see what they have to say.

In reply to that, I am good mates with two of the guys that did this test and they are both top pros, and the tester NC, has just bought himself a YZ250 two stroke to go and ride and race. I have been mentioning to him to have a crack at the nationals on the two banger as he bought it so that he didnt have the pressure on him from his sponsors to get results and just wants to race local stuff, but I really want to see someone campaigning a two banger again at a national level here in Aus. If I can get him keen I will let you guys know. Just one more comment on that particular article, they havent changed the rules to allow 250 two strokes to race in the 'lites' (250f) class. That is another sore point as I have been pushing for this rule to change. Hopefully soon we will displacement parity. Long live the two stroke.
Two Stroke - A Revolution or Extinction ??

You DECIDE !!

Offline evo550

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2010, 03:37:45 AM »
Swapper,
Have you read the March ADB, page 40.
MA has confirmed 250 2 stroke's can compete in the Lites class at the nationals in 2010, and amatuer ranks may follow in 2011.
Talk of Kim Ashkenazi racing a 2t. He'd be the only one old enough in the lites class who'd know how to ride one ;D ;D

Offline SwapperMX

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2010, 04:38:54 AM »
Yeah I know. I was as pumped as anyone as there has been several articles claiming the rule change. I decided to take it to the next level and I spoke to Lindsay Grainger (Head of Motorcycling Australia-Qld branch), as well as Kev Williams from WEM(promoter of Aus moto-x nationals) and both confirmed that the Pro Lites class will be 100-150cc two stroke and 200-250cc four stroke. It did break my heart. LOL. But we can only keep pushing for the displacement disparity to be rectified. Any ideas on how we could best achieve this. At both an amateur and pro level. I dont see us having the AMA type problems with the manufacturers having great influence, its just that everything I have tried has been shut down very fast and a complete dead end. If anyone can provide me with any support or advice on how best to market the rule change to the big wigs here in australia I would be greatly appreciative.
Two Stroke - A Revolution or Extinction ??

You DECIDE !!

Offline JohnN

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2010, 05:21:39 AM »
Hey Swapper... I so wish that we had the 150cc two-stroke versus the 250F in Pro AMA racing!! We would have a bike in that class in a minute!! Sure it needs to be equal displacement otherwise it's a handi-cap, but that extra 50cc's would really help the two-stroke be more even.

You may not be aware of the forces at work in Australia and the manufacturers... they may have a bit more influence then you think.

Case in point... last year the FIM sent out a press release that for 2010 the MX2 class would be 250cc whether two or four-stroke... sometime during the year that press release was quietly removed. What could have happened? My guess is that the manufacturers rallied and told the FIM that they wouldn't race their series if this rule went through.

This has been Honda's favorite thing to do in many forms of racing.

I have come to the conclusion that they only way to overcome this stupidity is to compete in the National race series with the smaller two-stroke. From all the feedback that I have gathered over the past two years, the racer on that machine will get a ton of support from fans and could be more popular than some of the "super stars" on their handi-capped machines.

Obviously this is the path that I'm taking with our Project Two 50... you can not believe how many people have contact all the members of our team to tell us how much they appreciate that we are doing this. Some folks have made money contributions and others have pledged support...

At the 6 events we race this season we will be the most popular rig to be around... we're going to do things much differently than the other teams as well, which will help our cause even more. In a way our results may not be nearly as important as the four-stroke teams, as long as our racer continues to charge throughout the whole of the two motos...

It's going to be fun!
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Offline admiral

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2010, 07:26:51 AM »
i have no doubt that there will never be a rule allowing 250 2T bikes to race in the 250F class in any national pro series. no OEM factory team will tolerate watching privateers with stock YZ250's get all the holeshots and pass their 'works' 250F's on uphills. the truth is the factory team riders would probally still win most of the races on 250F's because they have the best riders but the indignation of watching their fleet of factory bikes getting passed in high horse power/torque sections would make them look bad.

Offline Chris2T

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2010, 11:00:07 AM »
... we're going to do things much differently than the other teams as well, which will help our cause even more....

It's going to be fun!

how about you name yourselves "Team No Handicap" ;-D

Offline evo550

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2010, 10:32:37 PM »
I too asked MQ for confirmation when I read the 2 earlier articles, and they denied any rule change, but the latest ADB article reads "It has been confirmed with ADB that 250 2 strokes will be allowed to race in the MX lites class in 2010 on a national level, with the chance for the rule to be implemented at state and local level in 2011"
Wonder who they "confirmed" it with ? 
I thought journalists where supposed to confirm facts of articles before they went to print ?
Might shoot ADB an email, see what they say.
Where abouts in sunny qld are you?

Offline mxaniac

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2010, 12:33:38 PM »
I read MXA more than any other magazine but I still have issues with them.  I think they have an agenda at all times which is for the most part massaging their ego.  I think it clouds their bike reviews.  The other issue is they get so much free stuff they don't seem to have any ability to comprehend what $100 purchase has any real benefit to a person that only has $100 to spend.

Offline JohnN

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2010, 04:56:58 PM »
I read MXA more than any other magazine but I still have issues with them.  I think they have an agenda at all times which is for the most part massaging their ego.  I think it clouds their bike reviews.  The other issue is they get so much free stuff they don't seem to have any ability to comprehend what $100 purchase has any real benefit to a person that only has $100 to spend.

I do not dis-agree with you on this... in fact most of the magazines seem to have forgotten that working people are the back bone of this sport. The ones that actually buy the bikes, gear, clothing and parts that fuel the industry.

Not many people have the money to buy $1,200. titanium pipes, nor rebuild their expensive bikes every 15 hours!!

On the other hand it's hard to blame the magazines, they are trying to grow the industry for themselves as well. The more doo-dads there are for people to buy and sell, the more potential advertising dollars the magazines can earn. Sometimes it's just fun to look at the bling-bling stuff, even if you're not going to buy it.

Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline SwapperMX

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2010, 05:56:47 PM »
I too asked MQ for confirmation when I read the 2 earlier articles, and they denied any rule change, but the latest ADB article reads "It has been confirmed with ADB that 250 2 strokes will be allowed to race in the MX lites class in 2010 on a national level, with the chance for the rule to be implemented at state and local level in 2011"
Wonder who they "confirmed" it with ? 
I thought journalists where supposed to confirm facts of articles before they went to print ?
Might shoot ADB an email, see what they say.
Where abouts in sunny qld are you?

Hey mate,
I am in the bayside area in Brisbane, ride all the local tracks, the stan, reedy, coolum, tivoli etc. Yeah I dont know who ADB got their info from, but it doesnt seem like it was correct. Maybe they were "hoping" that the rules would be changed just like you and I. I really hope that we can gain some momentum towards having the rules changed. It would be interesting to see what ADB would say rearding the rules if you asked them.
Two Stroke - A Revolution or Extinction ??

You DECIDE !!

Offline evo550

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Re: Two versus Four
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2010, 02:02:35 AM »
Well isn't the World Wide Web just one big country town, I'm on the North side of Brisvegas, spend most w/ends at either Coolum or Kilcoy, do the odd practice day at Stanmore and Connondale.
Vets over 40 #E50 come up and say G'Day if you see me floating about.
Shot ADB a "Please explian" email today, see what they have to say.