Two strokes aren't much good in the woods anyway.....

[TMKIWI]

Anyway, the point was that Japan can make cars that beat Ferraris and Lambos.  And there's more to performance cars than hp.

Agreed.
But not many of them have a soul.
There are not many Japanese cars that have or will become classics in the eyes of collectors.
Datsun 240Z being 1 of the few and Nissan GTR ( Godzilla ) will/is another.
The GTR is a thinking mans performance car.
It is quicker around The Nurburgring then a Zonda or Maserati MC12. At 1/3 of the price.

Cars/Bikes have to earn a pedigree, that can not be limited to just performance figures.

[monsteryz125]

Anyway, the point was that Japan can make cars that beat Ferraris and Lambos.  And there's more to performance cars than hp.

I agree and disagree, it depends on the individuals perception of a performance car, i love drag racing so an ideal performance car is one that runs a 1/4 mile with the lowest ET so in that case id only be concerned with HP torque and weight, not handling, braking, etc. Just my opinion

[SachsGS]

I forget the name or specs. of the car,but during the late 60's or early 70's Toyota built a high performance/limited production sports car.

[TMKIWI]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_2000GT

Toyota 2000GT.
They only made 337 of them.
Strange they didn't put it into production like the 240Z. That went pretty well for Datsun.
Nice looking car.

[ford832]

What about passion and Soul.?
No one would argue that the Japanese build reliable Cars & Bikes.

Sachs would 
I agree about the soul thing though.Of all my ridiing buddies,I was always the Euro guy,despite my current ride.90% of my rides over the last 15 years have been Euro.
I like my YZ,and the new ones are supposed to be even better,but if I was bike shopping tomorrow,either a Berg,Husky,TM or GasGas would be taking up residence right now.I also realize the YZ is superior to all of these in may wayand in some ways not.
Of all the bikes I lust after,the vast majority are Euro.Certain bikes just seem to talk to me.
Somewhat like a friends old BSA Rocket he stored at my place years ago.I had lots of work I wanted to do on my Interceptor that winter but I couldn't pull myself away from his BSA.By spring,I'd done nothing to my bike but had religiously cleaned,adjusted,polished,frigged and farted with his Rocket.
Regardless,the fact I lean that way doesn't make me blind to their many issue,idiosycnhrasies and foibles as it does some.I see them for what they are and go into purchases knowing it-and many times wish they had more of a Japanese-like build quality.

[ford832]

Toughest rear shock built - Rieger.
Best brakes - Brembos.
Superb fork - Ohlins.
Shall I go on?  

Please do.I've never seen a bike consisting of only a Ohlins fork,Reiger shock and Brembo brake system but I'd be interested in knowing if there was anything else on that bike.
BTW,I've had 3 Brembo sets and none were as good as the YZ's

[SachsGS]

The 240Z was the product of a German designer.

Alas Ford, I agree the Japanese build very high quality,very reliable products.I loved my Mazda B2200 pickup,but why it still had a carb in 1989 I'll never know. It has been said that the Japanese motorcycle was a superior design built with inferior materials where as the British industry built bikes with less then perfect engineering but superior materials and we all know what happened there. As someone who has sold hundreds of vintage motorcycles this became very apparent - how do you define quality and reliability, in the short term or the long term (and I mean LONG term)? I could drag an old British bike out of a barn and soon the sand cast cases and stainless steel were glistening like new.The Japanese bike on the other hand,the rotted pipes would fall off as soon as I moved the bike,the cases white with oxidation.

The latest Brembos have power that the Japanese can only dream about.

I loved the old Husabergs,warts and all,because they looked like what they were - a works bike.As someone with a background in engineering design and manufacturing the Japanese bikes to me revealed the compromises of their designers - they were engineered to be profitable at a certain price and a certain volume.The stamped frames with a myriad  of bent tubes (bent tubes have no strength) ,oversize clutches (light pull),huge cast gearboxes (cheap),purpose compromised by styling to appeal to the masses - the list goes on.You see Ford, the whole thing is subjective and open to interpretation, my Maico's quality,uniqueness and performance as a woods bike is a level above the Japanese bikes,in my opinion.For my application,my Maico is the superior tool - that is why I bought it.

 As previously stated,the Japanese motorcycle industry produces high quality motorcycles defined by good value for the price.But demonstratedly superior to the European product? Not a chance.

[ford832]

We're not as far apart as you might think Sachs.I've always thought a Euro bike re-engineered and built by the Japs would be the cat's arse.
I loved my Berg as well.It came down to that or an RM250 but the berg spoke to me.Having said that,despite the appeal if the industrial,russian farm tractor,all business look to it that I liked,previous to 05 they were ticking time bombs prone to catastrophic failure-and I wouldn't have touched one.Looks,superior materials etc mean squat when pieces come flying out or it refuses to work properly.By 05 they still had many issues that needed to be ironed out by the owner or sympathetic dealer but for the most part,after some work,they were reliable and a fine steed.
What I have been talking about all along,and still am,is build quality.Yes,I know Jap pipes rotted,brit metal lasted(possibly due in part to massive self-generated oil based undercoating) and all that,but we all know what happened to the Brits and Japs way back when-psychotic conspiracy theories aside of course.
I also appreciate something unique and am willing to forgive a reasonable amount to get it and therefore fully understand you owning your Maico.For many however,they want and require something that works out of the box-without a major time or money commitment and aren't willing to have to work,or pay for someone else to work on a brand new machine.
Fortunately for many manufacturers,bikers are an odd sort.Few would buy a new car and forgive what many forgive with a new bike.
Having said all that,in recent years my free time becomes more and more strained and I greatly appreciate and admire the fact that my not  special or exotic,plain jane,run of the mill,same as everybody else has YZ250 asks nothing of me at all other than to add gas,kick and ride.It always works-and works well,requires almost no care and feeding,no modification or fiddling other than to set it up how I like it and forget it.It's well thought out,perfected and engineered.The metal may not polish up as good as some but  nowadays,it's lucky if it gets swiped off,let alone polished up.
Euros appeal to me on an emotional level,Japanese on a practical level.These days,practicality wins-and it still trips my trigger when I ride it.
As for the Brembo brake,all three of my Brembo sytems had more power than the YZ.They locked front and rear both with just the twitch of a finger or toe.I can lock the YZ easily as well-but I can also modulate it and drag the brake a little,trail brake a little harder,or put it on the point of locking up but not quite.A monkey can build a brake system that locks solid with little lever pressure but it takes a little more ability to design a well functioning system.If you're more of a straight line,good traction rider,the Brembo's would likely seem quite amazing-for me and my riding,they weren't.

 

[citabjockey]

Potent brakes. must be nice. My old early '70s drum brakes are anti-lock all the way. When I attempted the Virginia City Grand Prix with my SC500 last year (with only a handful of hours on it after a resurrection from an 1985 blow up) it handled a slippy downhill that had a good 30% of the modern bike riders crashing with locked front wheels. Of course my right arm was pumped pretty good at the bottom 

As for the Brembo brake,all three of my Brembo sytems had more power than the YZ.They locked front and rear both with just the twitch of a finger or toe.I can lock the YZ easily as well-but I can also modulate it and drag the brake a little,trail brake a little harder,or put it on the point of locking up but not quite.A monkey can build a brake system that locks solid with little lever pressure but it takes a little more ability to design a well functioning system.If you're more of a straight line,good traction rider,the Brembo's would likely seem quite amazing-for me and my riding,they weren't.

[TMKIWI]

All I have had to do to my TM in 2 years is 1 Piston @ 120Hours ( which was still in spec ), change gear oil, clean filter. I have also had the Ohlins forks and shock serviced. ( How many people here service their suspension when they should ? )
Bike has done 150 hours now and no brake downs.
I have changed brake pads , sprokets , tyres . The same as you would do on any bike.
Pretty good for a 'quirky' Italian bike.

Did I mention NO brake downs.

[ford832]

Yeah,maybe,but the again,you don't ride a Maico now do you?
Actually,none of my Euro's have broken down other than my SX which fouled a brand new plug(dud)right after I put it in.
How about the latest Euro,the Berg.Awesome bike,big power but super controllable,light weight for a 4t but.......
The chain wore into the frame badly in my first ride.My cure after repairing it and dishing it in somewhat was to go with an endless chain.
From new they were jetted insanely lean for emissions and tried to compensate by a 3 second pump squirt.This meant it was super lean under throttle but would want to flood out at lower speeds if you were on/off the throttle.The cure was a Lineaweaver jet kit(hand turned needles etc) that does away with the pump.It worked 95% except when you whacked the throttle and then it would bog.I cured that by drilling/tapping the carb body and installing a spring/screw to contact the pump mechanism to get the pump squirt down to a as low as possible(little under a second) while still being functional.
And then there was the filter/vent pipe issues and a few others of course.Once sorted,it was great-but I did have to sort it out.Both KTM's were the same way.The YZ has been similar to yours.Maybe it's a blue thing

[TMKIWI]

The YZ has been similar to yours.Maybe it's a blue thing

See if you had bought a TM instead of the Berg you wouldn't have had any problems.

[ford832]

You could be right.Send me yours and I'll evaluate it 

[SachsGS]

I repaired more then a few early Bergs so I know all about their reliability issues. The Brembos work very well on my Maicos and ,as stated, I prefer them to Japanese issue brakes. My Maicos have been remarkably dependable, similar to the Japanese bikes in the short term and better in the long term. You know that your YZ's rear shock has an anodized aluminum body and when the surface hardening gets scrubbed away the shock is a door stop?

 When I finished school I started off racing Japanese makes again, my RM displayed terrible reliabilty and my Honda was much better but the bike and me just didn't "klick".The Kawasakis also had many issues and, having owned Yamahas prior to school, I considered them but ,having ridden friend's WRs and YZs ,decided against them. Considering how good the modern Gassers are and the value for money the Husqvarnas represent, why would I even consider a Yamaha now?

[ford832]

If all you can find wrong with my Yamaha is the shock body(though mine is fine at 10yrs)I consider that a victory.
Maybe you want a Yamaha so you can ride the benchmark,not a poor imitation that's always shooting at it-and can't hit what is now a stationary target
On the other hand,I just came back from my local Yamaha dealer where I was perusing the new 300 Berg in person.Even better looking up close and there are differences from the KTM.It uses bigger forks,is a 6 spd and a few other things.Sweeeeettttt. $8500 Cdn.