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Author Topic: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.  (Read 16118 times)

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Offline SachsGS

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2010, 10:52:24 AM »
I think it will be the "Invisible hand of the Economy" that will determine how the future of offroad motorcycles pan out. If enough consumers demand modern high performance two stroke dirtbikes, manufacturers will supply them. Evidence of this subtle but pronounced shift in buying habits are the new Husaberg two strokes, the bean counters at KTM didn't introduce them into the marketplace to lose money.

Offline maicoman009

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2010, 03:31:33 PM »





Quote from: SubTexel link=topic=872.msg9129#msg9129 date=12793
[/quote


 Other companies have kept their 2 strokes on life support only if to save face with their consumers, but I doubt they'll carry it on much longer regardless of the resurgence of the 2 stroke. They aren't keeping them alive because it's the right thing to do, or that they sell well (Yamaha only produces a very small amount of 2 strokes that they import here into the U.S, they sell out of them very quickly but how long do you think Yamaha will keep doing so when they are having problems moving their 4 strokes? Still quite a few YZ450 and 250F leftovers in dealers showrooms from 1-2 years ago on top of the "revolutionary" 2010 450F and 250F bikes that are still on show room floors unsold and heavily discounted). Doesn't say much for Yamaha and their mighty 4 strokes and I can see them dumping the 2 strokes to save face...
I've always thought the reason they kept their 2-stroke line up was to"save face"and also what is Yamaha as well as the other Japanese companies going to do when us consumers don't want to buy anything from them but 2-strokes ?? I personally believe they will start to bring back the 2-strokes once they realize that's all the average consumer wants to buy!NOT to mention the 2-strokes are the only bikes moving off of the showroom floors & the "Big Four" are'nt moving any of their new 4=strokes like they expected to do.It's almost funny to some of us die hard smoker fans... ;D

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2010, 07:56:21 PM »
I agree, I think that at least Yamaha and KTM are going to shift more towards two-strokes here soon.  Remember, aside for the weird voodoo shit that's going on at Honda, these companies aren't particularly out to push one technology or another.  They're out to make money.  And for a long time, that has gone hand-in-hand with the four-stroke takeover simply because of the rule shift and the public image of four-strokes being faster (all the pros ride them), better for the environment, and I've even heard some people think they're more reliable.

But, the hands of public opinion are changing as costs rise and budgets falls.  The people are already voting with their wallets as we're seeing two-strokes selling out on the showrooms and going for top dollar in the second-hand market.  In this environment, if a dirt bike company wants to make bank, two-stroke is going to be the way to go.  In fact, judging by the dealership sales stories we've been hearing, it already is the way to go.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline bearorso

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2010, 07:58:58 PM »
Over the years I've been fascinated by the general lack of knowledge about Honda's anti 4t stance - a culture inculcated by Soichiro Honda himself (though their very first true MC, the A1 , I think, had a 2t engine ;D). Even many supposed Journalists  seemed to miss Honda letting all and sundry know that they intended to cease all 2t production by 2007.

Honda have some very impressive engineering with regards to 2ts - at least what we know of - the range of patents they have applied to 2ts alone would boggle the mind, I would suspect. Perhaps the ARC patents have run out - as Eyvind Boyesens trapping valve KX250 mule engine is a rather close to the basic idea, even if the execution is very different. I really want to snaffle up a last year model of the CRM 250 AR, for my own collection of bikes, sooner, rather than later.

So, besides the owner / founders dislike of 2ts - which they had to put aside so they didn't miss out on the amazing dirt bike explosion in the 70s (Potential profitability / "money talks" is a powerful thing - perhaps even moreso nowadays), a great big marketing thing came along to assist 4ts - Environmental matters! (I'm not denigrating them , they are very important to our future).

Honda really joined in with the 'clean & green' thing - and, just like enviro activists / politicians and even the general public, it really easy to point to those 'dirty, smokey 2 strokes', and look like the good guys in getting rid of them. Too bad you don't have to add up the true costs of production and use of the 4t engines that have superseded the 2ts >:D .

You add in all the rules that favour 4ts in racing -double the capacity in MX2,1.8 :1 in MX1, WEC/EWC rules, Moto GP (through to banning outright, at least through the rules, of 2ts) and there go most of the 2ts.

Mind you, with Moto 2 , Aprilia are just as to blame as Honda's power and influence - by charging so much to lease a factory level 250 ( 1 million Euro? - they offered leasing at 1 Euro during 09 for blokes to use the 250 still in 010 - either that was them being facetious, or 250s were not allowed at all finally- I"m unsure on that last one), which you Had to have to have any hope of winning, they killed off the 250s just as much as Honda and the other companies. The same idiocy is going to lead to the disappearance of the 125s in GP racing....... As a side question - I don't see KTM trying to sell their neat little 125, just using it for the Red Bull cup racing - I've seen only 1 KTM listed in the GPs at times lately - by, perhaps, not selling the 125, KTM are tacitly letting the 2t in GPs die off.

We are in an age where you can go to a company, that makes a bicycle front wheel that is driven by a tiny DFI'd 2t engine in its hub, and the company loudly touts the cleanliness and fuel efficiency of the 2t over 4ts. Another company sells, and has retrofitted thousands of 2t commercial trikes / bikes in Asia with a DFI top end conversion for the existing 2ts out there.

As another fellow wrote above, perhaps it will be "the invisible hand of the economy" ( I truly believe that the only reason KTM has survived the last few years is the profitability of their 2t line, aided so much by the lack of major 2t  production competition from other, large manufacturers) that gets 2ts back - even from Honda. They could 'save face' over their early anti 2t stance, by jumping back into them because of their new, 'even more clean and green' than a 4t standings, as modern 2ts are showing themselves to be. Especially if you add up all the costs of production , in both monetary and environmental terms.. But, I'm not about to hold my breathe on that one.

Bugger Honda, I say!

Offline SubTexel

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2010, 09:32:11 PM »





Quote from: SubTexel link=topic=872.msg9129#msg9129 date=12793
[/quote


 Other companies have kept their 2 strokes on life support only if to save face with their consumers, but I doubt they'll carry it on much longer regardless of the resurgence of the 2 stroke. They aren't keeping them alive because it's the right thing to do, or that they sell well (Yamaha only produces a very small amount of 2 strokes that they import here into the U.S, they sell out of them very quickly but how long do you think Yamaha will keep doing so when they are having problems moving their 4 strokes? Still quite a few YZ450 and 250F leftovers in dealers showrooms from 1-2 years ago on top of the "revolutionary" 2010 450F and 250F bikes that are still on show room floors unsold and heavily discounted). Doesn't say much for Yamaha and their mighty 4 strokes and I can see them dumping the 2 strokes to save face...
I've always thought the reason they kept their 2-stroke line up was to"save face"and also what is Yamaha as well as the other Japanese companies going to do when us consumers don't want to buy anything from them but 2-strokes ?? I personally believe they will start to bring back the 2-strokes once they realize that's all the average consumer wants to buy!NOT to mention the 2-strokes are the only bikes moving off of the showroom floors & the "Big Four" are'nt moving any of their new 4=strokes like they expected to do.It's almost funny to some of us die hard smoker fans... ;D

You'd be surprised at Honda holding out on the 2 strokes even if others move in / profit where Honda once dominated in sales (KTM and Yamaha are doing it now). Honda will never make the same mistake in doing a 180 on their stance against the 2 strokes. They might do it through a shell company, but never through Honda directly.

Again, I really don't know why Yamaha even keeps the 125 or 250, they haven't improved the motors since at least 2001 and the cosmetics since 2002, the frame since 2005, and the suspension since 2006. The bike is far from perfect and motor improvements could really help it, same with a better frame geometry... I do know they sell out very quickly, but they don't import a lot to begin with compared to their 250Fs/450Fs. I'd really like to see where they go with the two strokes but I honestly don't see them producing them much longer. I'd love to be surprised though.

As for KTMs 2 strokes, well we'll see. They were quick to fight the 250 2 strokes racing in the pro class against the 250Fs, they aren't any more a friend of 2 strokes than Honda is, they're just business savvy and want to take advantage of the vacuum created by the other manufacturers pulling out (Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda). They are in the same boat of the other manufacturers in having spent billions on development and advertising how technologically superior the 4 stroke is, in fact they just spent a ton of money developing a 350SXF that honestly is a dead end competitively (much like Honda's 150R), when they could have pushed out DI powered 2 strokes instead completely turning the industry on it's head...

Maico I think is about the only one who is behind the 2 stroke movement 100% but we can't even get the new ones imported yet. Time will tell though how the 2 stroke resurgence will impact racing. For me it'll be 2 stroke no matter what, but I would like to have a new 2 stroke with actual NEW R&D put into it, and actual improvements instead of lip service (KTM, Yamaha).


Offline SachsGS

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2010, 08:16:32 AM »
We shouldn't forget BRP's contributions to clean, state of the art two stroke engine technologies through it's subsidiaries Ski Doo, Envinrude and Rotax. :D

Offline Suzuki TS250/185

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2010, 11:27:59 AM »
The two stroke markets are growing, not slowing down. That's the one and only reason for the new Husabergs. There is money to be made, and a substantial market has apparently demonstrated itself for the industry recently or else no company would have introduced a new bike into the market no matter what it says in that company's press clippings.

If there is ENOUGH money to be made, 2T Suzuki's and Kawasaki's will show up again, even if somewhat reluctantly. Hippie Honda will be at the table to gorge itself right along with the others, don't you worry about it. They've already stated that they will not ever produce a 2 stroke again, and they seem to want the world to think their board room resembles "Home Tree" from the Avatar movie, all packed with enlightened nature preserving blue semi-humanoids, but that kind of image thing never stands in the way of a corporation when there's money to be made. A new side door company just suddenly pops up to sell the product under a different flag. A big corporation like Honda is after all, just a two timin' double talkin' street hustler in a quick-change polyesther suit when you look at it's spiritual fibre, and even that is probably an opimistic estimate.

 
I think 4 stroke dirtbikes are a phase, kind of like "Glam Rock" in a way. You see the whole world subscribing to it, and you wonder how everyone could be choking down so much Kool Aid and Spam... Then 10 Years later, nothing's left but the timeless stuff from before and after..

Offline DangisMX

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2010, 12:28:36 PM »
Bu who cares really? Honda, KTM, BMW whatever... As long as one can buy a motorcycle that is good, who the hell cares if its got red plastics or blue ? I mean seriously? They're all made by people. Just buy a motorcycle that you like most, not the one which has the best commercial campaign and if you do that, the manufacturer doesn't really make a difference... I would have nothing against Honda if they started making two strokes, and I'm pretty sure they would be good ones too, and I would seriously consider buying one.

Therefore, I don't hate Honda, I could only say I don't like the direction which a few people are making this company take.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 12:31:12 PM by DangisMX »

Offline maicoman009

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2010, 10:30:24 PM »
The one thing that nobody can deny is that KTM is actually updating their 2-strokes with the 2011's having updated frames and the SX models now have a linkage suspension plus the XC's & XC-W's now have six speed transmissions as well as updated plastics.
  TM is bringing a fuel injected 125cc 2-stroke out this year and Husaberg just brought the TE-250 & TE-300 two stroke out for 2011.!!
  And we can't forget the new line of all 2-stroke Maico's that should be here in the U.S.A real soon that have been updated with a new carb,a new frame,new fuel tank,swingarm and subframe!
 Two stroke bikes will continue to be around for a very,very long time because that's seems to be what the people not only want but what they enjoy riding and if the manufacturers ever quit making 2-stroke dirtbikes then I personally will NEVER BUY A NEW BIKE AGAIN !!! >:D

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2010, 10:52:58 PM »
Maicoman makes a very good point.  No matter how much we complain about the good old days and four-strokes are doing blah-de-blah and the Big Five and the AMA and the new tracks and the Media and so on and so forth, things are turning around.  We've seen more positive news for two-strokes in the last six months than in the previous five years, and it looks like this is just the tip of the ice-berg that will hopefully sink the four-stroke Titanic (which was actually a one-stroke, by the way.)


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline maicoman009

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2010, 06:35:02 PM »







Quote from: SubTexel link=topic=872.msg9129#msg9129 date=12793
[/quote
   


As for KTMs 2 strokes, well we'll see. They were quick to fight the 250 2 strokes racing in the pro class against the 250Fs, they aren't any more a friend of 2 strokes than Honda is, they're just business savvy and want to take advantage of the vacuum created by the other manufacturers pulling out (Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda). They are in the same boat of the other manufacturers in having spent billions on development and advertising how technologically superior the 4 stroke is, in fact they just spent a ton of money developing a 350SXF that honestly is a dead end competitively (much like Honda's 150R), when they could have pushed out DI powered 2 strokes instead completely turning the industry on it's head...

  I have to strongly disagree when you say KTM were quick to fight the 250 2-strokes racing in the pro class against the 250f's & that they are'nt any more a friend of 2-strokes than Honda is.When KTM was looking into a direct injected 2-stroke they were going to use DI on the 250SX until the EVIL AMA changed the rules!Look on this site & you will find this quote: "The 250SX could have a bright future but it depends on what happens regarding the rules & regulations. KTM wants them to be introduced to MX-2 to allow teams that don't have millionaire budgets to compete against the 4-strokes.For the 2-stroke the injection is ready & this would provide a cleaner & more precise power delivery.So it's NOT KTM like alot of people think it's more likely due to the AMA,FIM and the economy in general,and I believe those reasons are also why Yamaha has'nt improved on their 2-strokes very much.But that's better than Honda! They don't have any 2-strokes on the market & probably never will again! ;D



Offline SubTexel

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2010, 07:37:45 PM »







Quote from: SubTexel link=topic=872.msg9129#msg9129 date=12793
[/quote
   


As for KTMs 2 strokes, well we'll see. They were quick to fight the 250 2 strokes racing in the pro class against the 250Fs, they aren't any more a friend of 2 strokes than Honda is, they're just business savvy and want to take advantage of the vacuum created by the other manufacturers pulling out (Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda). They are in the same boat of the other manufacturers in having spent billions on development and advertising how technologically superior the 4 stroke is, in fact they just spent a ton of money developing a 350SXF that honestly is a dead end competitively (much like Honda's 150R), when they could have pushed out DI powered 2 strokes instead completely turning the industry on it's head...

  I have to strongly disagree when you say KTM were quick to fight the 250 2-strokes racing in the pro class against the 250f's & that they are'nt any more a friend of 2-strokes than Honda is.When KTM was looking into a direct injected 2-stroke they were going to use DI on the 250SX until the EVIL AMA changed the rules!Look on this site & you will find this quote: "The 250SX could have a bright future but it depends on what happens regarding the rules & regulations. KTM wants them to be introduced to MX-2 to allow teams that don't have millionaire budgets to compete against the 4-strokes.For the 2-stroke the injection is ready & this would provide a cleaner & more precise power delivery.So it's NOT KTM like alot of people think it's more likely due to the AMA,FIM and the economy in general,and I believe those reasons are also why Yamaha has'nt improved on their 2-strokes very much.But that's better than Honda! They don't have any 2-strokes on the market & probably never will again! ;D



KTM is on the AMA board... Just like Honda, Yamaha, and Kawasaki. And yes, they were very quick to fight the introduction of equal CCs in the classes and threatened to pull their riders out of the series if the rule was passed.

Also, how did the AMA stop KTM from introducing DI? It's no different than the FI on the 4 strokes, and honestly the economy thing would have ruled out them introducing FI on their 250F and dumping a lot of R&D type implementations on their red headed stepchild of a brand Husaberg.

Offline maicoman009

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2010, 08:03:21 PM »
What I meant about the AMA was'nt that they stopped KTM from making a DI 2-stroke I just believe that when the AMA would'nt let the 250 2 stroke race against the 250 4-stroke that KTM maybe thought that it would'nt be worth making the DI 2-stroke so they went ahead with making the 350F. :(
  Trust me when I say that I really wish the powers that be would allow the 250 4-stroke to race the 250 2=stroke!And I knew that there is a KTM guy on the AMA board but I always heard that there is only one on the AMA board from KTM... :)

Offline JohnN

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2010, 08:38:14 AM »
Not sure that you guys really get the impact of what would happen if only one manufacturer would release a DI two-stroke... it would quickly become an orphan, similar to the CRF150 and unfortunately the KTM 350

The rules would change so fast that it would make your head spin.

No manufacturer wants to release a bike that will be choked off and killed before it has a chance to prove that it's viable.

As I've mentioned before there is much more to this then meets the eye.

The ONLY real way of changing this negative impact is to continue to support two-strokes and to help others see the benefits. Not by calling four-stroke fans names or being militant or by saying negative things about Honda. That line of thinking will put the entire movement into the fringes where it will be promptly ignored by anyone that has the power to change it.

If you think this is the wrong path to follow I'd love to hear constructive ideas.


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Offline SubTexel

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Re: Hondas NOT so surprising anti 2-stroke stance.
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2010, 10:20:24 AM »
Not sure that you guys really get the impact of what would happen if only one manufacturer would release a DI two-stroke... it would quickly become an orphan, similar to the CRF150 and unfortunately the KTM 350

The rules would change so fast that it would make your head spin.

No manufacturer wants to release a bike that will be choked off and killed before it has a chance to prove that it's viable.

As I've mentioned before there is much more to this then meets the eye.

The ONLY real way of changing this negative impact is to continue to support two-strokes and to help others see the benefits. Not by calling four-stroke fans names or being militant or by saying negative things about Honda. That line of thinking will put the entire movement into the fringes where it will be promptly ignored by anyone that has the power to change it.

If you think this is the wrong path to follow I'd love to hear constructive ideas.




I agree that being militant about 2 strokes is a complete turn off to most people. One of the 1st things Jimmy Lewis mentioned to me was how he viewed twostrokemotocross.com as a fringe 2 stroke nut group, I was quick to point out it was no different than ThumperTalk and told him most people into the 2 stroke resurgence aren't hard-line anti-fourstroke nuts, me being one of them (I own and like both, but enjoy riding the 2 strokes). His biggest thing was how people were doing the whole 4 strokes only, 2 strokes only extremes and said if he could only have one bike it would be a 125 MXer, then we went off into conversation about the suspension changes they threw in on my little brothers test bike haha. (I think he was a bit surprised I didn't go off on the 2 strokes rule 4 jokes suck routine I'm sure he gets a lot of).

At any rate, I really don't see DI getting penalized if it's introduced. It's no different than FI on the 4 strokes, if anything it'd get others to jump in on the craze. The 150R/350SXF are niche bikes (one was pushed by Honda to kill off the 85cc class, the other by KTM to waste time and money lol), a DI bike is neither, it's just an improvement to an existing bike.

Also, as a side note... Heard some rumors of Suzuki bringing the two strokes back to the U.S (only issue right now is them having troubles with pre-selling them to dealers... Heard of a shop here in SoCal that has been pushing hard but Suzuki won't bring them in unless more pony up... Sad.)