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Offline Coop

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2010, 05:25:18 AM »
I am a believer that more technology is not always better. I like the idea of bikes I can work on out on the trail. Honestly, at the risk of sounding like Jetz :-X, I am not really even a fan of power valves because they complicate top end maintenance. On a dirt bike, to me, simpler is better.

So I will stick to bikes with carburetors that I can easily work on  :D .
- Mike - Don't take life so seriously, nobody gets out alive.

Offline factoryX

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2010, 01:27:17 PM »
^Blasphemy! 


I ride an 03 yz250, wait 04, wait 05, what ever, they're all the same #$@% YOU!

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2010, 12:40:31 AM »
See, I always win in the end.  It may take 30 years, but that's just the way I roll. :P


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2010, 02:16:20 PM »
Christ Coop , Do you know what you are saying ? :o
I think you need to sit down and take a breather. ;)
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline Coop

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2010, 02:31:18 PM »
Christ Coop , Do you know what you are saying ? :o
I think you need to sit down and take a breather. ;)

Yeah I obviously wasn't thinking clearly when I posted that... :D
- Mike - Don't take life so seriously, nobody gets out alive.

Offline 2smoker

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2010, 05:25:54 PM »
Well said Jetz. If they create a fuel injection system that requires a lot of maintenance, that is just defeating the whole idea of our "cheap and easy to maintain" 2 strokes.

LOL.. you guys crack me up.. The fuel injected ski-doos are more reliable, pollute less that the 4 stroke have more power everywhere without adding any weight at all , are easy to tweak and work on.. doesn't need more maintenance but still not good enough? We are going to be in 2011 next year. Who cares is we don't have needle or blue smoke.??? It is all positive!!!!!!!!!!! Blue smoke away is a good welcome to indoor tracks...... Stop living in the past......

Listen to these 2 videos.. comparing the old carb version to the new fuel injected one... No comparisons..

SnowTrax Rides SKi-Doo's 800R E-TEC MXZ X

Lightest Trial motorbike ever...

it is a fuel injected and simply amazing looking!

CON SONIDO: OSSA TR 280i NUEVA MOTO DE TRIAL



Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2010, 05:51:53 PM »
I said IF there was extra maintenance that outweighed the other gains.  Although I have limited experience with the BRP direct-injection products, I believe that the gains they make from the technology, absolutely obliterate any of the downsides that may exist.  I still haven't heard how fuel-injection really affects the Ossa - all I've heard in the way of advantages for non-direct fuel-injection come from the four-stroke world, where it seems most of them turned out to be marketing.  Again, that's an entirely different bike than a two-stroke, and so the results are going to be different.  The point is, I don't know how this middle-of-the-road technology is going to affect TM's bike, and I further don't know how that is going to affect cost, maintenance, or the do-it-yourself factor, because it's worlds different from the BRP technology we all know and love.  Therefore, I am reserving judgement on the TM until this information becomes available.  However, I am confident that the gains are not going to be as significant as they would have been, had they chosen to adopt something similar to the wonderful direct-injection with which the majority of us are highly impressed.

The most important word in what we have been saying, was the word "IF."


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline 2smoker

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2010, 08:00:23 PM »
I said IF there was extra maintenance that outweighed the other gains.  Although I have limited experience with the BRP direct-injection products, I believe that the gains they make from the technology, absolutely obliterate any of the downsides that may exist.  I still haven't heard how fuel-injection really affects the Ossa - all I've heard in the way of advantages for non-direct fuel-injection come from the four-stroke world, where it seems most of them turned out to be marketing.  Again, that's an entirely different bike than a two-stroke, and so the results are going to be different.  The point is, I don't know how this middle-of-the-road technology is going to affect TM's bike, and I further don't know how that is going to affect cost, maintenance, or the do-it-yourself factor, because it's worlds different from the BRP technology we all know and love.  Therefore, I am reserving judgement on the TM until this information becomes available.  However, I am confident that the gains are not going to be as significant as they would have been, had they chosen to adopt something similar to the wonderful direct-injection with which the majority of us are highly impressed.

The most important word in what we have been saying, was the word "IF."

Do you really think that they will upgrade their machines with something worse?lol  Guys are funny! There is nothing wrong by replacing a damn carb with a cpu.. If I can get an eco-friendly ( yeah I care about the air we are breathing) 2 stroke engine with more power without the hassle of more maintenance.. I will show the money..and will help the cause.. people are so narrow minded.. Man I live in country where snowmobiles rules the Winter(religion)... and Bombardier are just killing the market right now with the 2 stroke renaissance ..Yamaha with their 4 stroke design (pigs) are just a joke over here.. trust me.. They go on forever without any rebuilt but comes with a bigger hit and more controllable power... Just wake up and accept the fact that there is nothing wrong with an upgraded version of a 2 stroke that we really like. 2 stroke is Motocross..
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline 2smoker

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2010, 08:10:08 PM »
Keep up dreamin..stay positive!!!!!!! I love the sport more than my life itself....There is nothing like Motocross..we all know it..

Riding Impression - 2010 YZ250
CR 500 Braaap!! Long Live 2 Strokes!!!!! www.MXwebcam.com
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 08:13:41 PM by 2smoker »
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2010, 01:10:00 AM »
Do I think they would make the bikes worse?  Well, they've done it before, at least according to relatively unreliable sources like Bob Hannah.  And haven't we forgotten about the massive downgrade that everyone made for themselves in the name of "new technology" with this whole four-stroke fiasco?  Newer does not necessarily equal better, as any passing glance at the 1981 and 1982 Maicos, or 1969 and 1985 Ford Mustangs would quickly reveal.  On the aggregate, yes new is generally better than old, but that is not a law cast into granite.

BUT, what you're missing is that this whole time, I've been using the word "if" very liberally and with a lot of weight placed upon it.  IF the bike is worse over-all because of a new technology, then I don't see any reason to think it's a good thing.  If.  If!  IF!!

The proper way to look at bikes, is to imagine that both exist entirely without context, so they can be held to the same standard.  Want to compare a 1995 KX to a 2006 KX?  Imagine that they're both different bikes sitting brand-new on a 2010 show-room floor, and the friendly dealership man is saying, "These are our two models for 2010, here are the details on both, which one will you be buying today?"  All I'm saying is that we should be looking at the technology to determine which bike is better, NOT at which has a bigger number in the box marked "Model Year."  IF the carburetor works better than the injection, taking into account performance, cost, durability, etc, then that should be the bike to prefer.  IF the injection works better than the carburetor, then that is the bike to prefer.  I am not trying to say that the carburetor will be better than fuel injection, I'm saying that I don't know.

You can't say that the new TM is like the BRP snowmobiles, because there is a massive, MASSIVE difference between "fuel injection" and "direct injection" in two-strokes.  "Fuel Injection" just means the bike is exactly the same, except the fuel is added to airflow by a high-pressure nozzle, rather than by a tube working on Bernoulli's principle.  All your engine is going to get is a finer mist and slightly cleaner combustion, as well as whatever flexibility comes from working with the electronics in the injector.  The whole exhaust-port-fuel-escaping problem is still present on a fuel-injected bike, so don't expect a radical environmental game in this new TM; it won't be there.

In the end, this line,

Quote
If I can get an eco-friendly ( yeah I care about the air we are breathing) 2 stroke engine with more power without the hassle of more maintenance.. I will show the money

says it all.  You qualified your statement by saying that there can't be the hassle of more maintenance.  That's all we're getting at, and it appears you agree.  With the BRP technology, it passes this test.  TM's system will be entirely different, so we have to reserve judgement until we can see if it passes.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 01:16:28 AM by JETZcorp »


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline ford832

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2010, 04:55:02 AM »
EFI is always better than carburetors both in performance and maintenance.That's why carbs have went the way of the dino in most other  applications.There's also no reason TM couldn't go with a DI system.The only issue I see with FI is weight.The system is a little heftier but it would be a worthwhile trade off imo.
I'd rather a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

Offline JohnN

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2010, 05:07:10 AM »
My question for all the guys that don't like the idea of fuel injection, how often do you actually jet your carburetor?? If you're doing it right, it's every time you ride depending on the conditions.

Yesterday I had the opportunity to jet a 2005 CR125. Have you guys gotten to work on a newer bike??

To be able to get to the carb to change the pilot and adjust the needle, a few parts had to be removed to accomplish this task. Here is the list.

Seat, side panel, silencer, sub frame and gas tank. All this just to get to the carburetor. Now maybe you have small enough hands that you would not have had to remove all that stuff, but I don't really think it's possible.

Of course JetZ pointed out a very important idea, if new technology is not better, why would you adopt it?

From my limited understanding of fuel injection, to change the "jetting" you connect a laptop to the bike and make your adjustments.

Comparing the two methods of jetting a bike. I know which I would chose!
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Offline SwapperMX

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2010, 05:20:51 AM »
Hey John,

I do jet my bike depending on conditions, but this is only just fine tuning for each track. Luckily my ride, a YZ 250, allows easy access to the carb, and can jet just by spinning the carb in the manifold. For sure hand held computer adjustment would be much easier, but we will have to wait and see what is going to happen there. I sure hope something does. I will jump in both feet first. Especially if it is a KTM or TM that releases the fuel injection.

As for your question on who actually works on a late model motocross bike, I sincerely hope that there is more than just a few of us that do ride and race two strokes at a decent level. I know Jetz and his mates like to go on about old Maico's and the like all the time, but I am sure most guys here are interested and own late model two stroke motocross bikes !!
Two Stroke - A Revolution or Extinction ??

You DECIDE !!

Offline Coop

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2010, 06:23:29 AM »
I have jetted many newer bikes John. Most you just remove the subframe with all the parts attached. Obviously not the fuel tank though  :)

But yes I do jet my bikes a lot, not every ride, but I don't race. But I am not a jet it once and forget it rider. 

For the record I am not against F.I. for racing, I guess I should have clarified that. I only trail ride and imagine that is all I will ever do unless my financial status changes in the future. Right now racing is just too expensive. So the thought of more expensive components on top of already expensive bikes and an already expensive sport just doesn't sound like fun to me for the way I ride. I am not anti-technology by any means. I am just not a fan of making bikes more complicated and expensive. ;D
- Mike - Don't take life so seriously, nobody gets out alive.

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: fuel injected TM 2t
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2010, 06:30:08 AM »
Well, here's my opinion on this whole thing. As far as me?  I prefer the carb, because I know how to work on it myself and I know how to jet perfectly, and on a 125 I can do it on the stand.  I was messing with a CRF50 last night, and it took a while.  Anyways, as far as needing to jet every time I ride, ONLY if you guys race...  You know the whole conversation I had the other day with a 450 owner and 4 stroke lover was that he was faster on the 4 stroke. He weighed about 240 or so but not really fat, just big guy.  Anyways, my question is, who cares if you are faster?  What are you winning?  I have more fun on a 2 stroke, and I don't race anymore.  Did the whole pro racing thing and am over that. So who cares if I would be faster on a 4 stroke.  Anyhoo, back to topic.  My opinion on why they NEED 2 strokes with DI or FI is this...  There are a ton of guys out there that can't and never could jet a bike.  That gave 2 strokes a bad name.  Blowing them up and oil spooging etc.  It wasn't about the bike, it was about the person doing the setup.  If a 2 stroke 250 was actually set up right, it should run for years and never even need a rebuilt top end. Most people aren't fast enough to need rebuilds every year like they always said they needed.  I will go 3 years atleast on my 250.  Never any problems, and hey, if I'm slower because lost compression, I just need to push harder, because even at less compression, am I going as fast as the bike can go?  Do I ride as fast as Ricky?  Then no to both....  So the DI and FI are for people who don't really know how, in my opinion.  The carbs are for those who probably don't wanna learn all this computer setup stuff and just wanna fiddle like me..
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 06:33:33 AM by miedosoracing »
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