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Offline opfermanmotors

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Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« on: September 13, 2010, 06:40:52 PM »
Ok, here is a thought experiment.  Let's say that at the Pala race today they declared that you can race a 2 stroke up to 500cc but it must be era correct and made before the rule change (i.e. Pre ~1998).

So we have all the current PRO's like that Dung guy on the 450F and then we have the "Vintage Dream Team".  The Dream Team consists of the most bad-ass bikes for their era being riden by the most bad ass rider for the bike.  A possible line up as follows on the Pala track:

All the 450F current racers (I.E. Dung, etc.)
1981 or 1983 (ur choice) Maico 490 with someone like Chuck Sun in his prime at the handle.
1986 Honda CR500 (or RC500) (best year for CRs) with someone like Brad Lackey
1989 KTM 500 with someone like Danny Chandler in his prime.
etc.

You can say that they have the best suspension that is era correct, i.e. perhaps the Maico has SimmonS UDX forks. 

You can even go back to the 70s, however I doubt those bikes would handle the jumps with their suspension but feel free, they can just sow down and go over them slowly :)


The question is who would finish first and who would be last?  How would these bikes finish and how would they compare to the new bikes in times?  It's ok to say they would come in last or they would come in first, however you must give a detailed reason beyond "A owl bake don't not a mike a win because new cycle bike motor is in a better I know ok?" or "theys a finish a first because a cc is a big much". Perhaps they finish neither first nor last.  Please leave Serious answers and serious backing on the reasons for your decision, this makes it more interesting.

When you present this imaginary race though, you should list the bikes in the running.  Would definately like to see CR500 (or RC500's, these can be factory works bikes), KTM500 and Maico 490 at least against brand new factory 450F's.  I just gave some examples and remember, all the bikes have the best possible riders and era correct works bikes.











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Offline riffraff

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2010, 08:01:11 PM »
Sounds like an awesome idea, but I think David Bailey or Rick Johnson in their prime with Honda would give any of the modern racers on their 450f's a good fight and probably beat them... oh yeah did I mention they would be on their respective 250 two strokes  :P
aaahhhhh yes, I remember the good old days

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2010, 10:41:20 PM »
Completely pointless excercise. But i like it  :P
Off the top off my head i would pick Shayne King on his KTM360 to make a top 5 using the bikes lightness and explosive power out of the corners to scare the shit out of the 450F riders.Also being able to take different lines will be a huge advantage.
Also Dave Thorpe on the CR500 to wear down riders to make a top 10.

This would only happen on a more natural track instead of the jump fest we have today.
Some of the modern riders think they are shit hot but most wouldnt hold a candle to some of the riders off the past.
They may be fitter and with better bikes , but their race craft is nothing like the older generation.
1 line congo springs to mind.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline JohnN

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2010, 06:03:01 AM »
I love this idea!

But I do have some questions to make sure I understand.

Would the race be on the same modern tracks that we have now?

Would the "Dream Team" racers be able to modify their machines, even if using technology of their day, but applied to modern track conditions?

In addition, would the "Dream Team" racers have some practice time to ride the new fangled moto tracks?

It's a very interesting exercise... while TMKIWI is correct it has no real inherent value, it's loads of fun!

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Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2010, 08:35:09 AM »
Quote
Would the race be on the same modern tracks that we have now?

Yes, the race will take place on the same modern tracks

Quote
Would the "Dream Team" racers be able to modify their machines, even if using technology of their day, but applied to modern track conditions?

Yes, they can modify their bikes anyway nessecary as if they were planning to race today, but they have to use era correct technology. (so no Maico AF's), and you can have any racer of their day on the bike.

Quote
In addition, would the "Dream Team" racers have some practice time to ride the new fangled moto tracks?

Yes, they get to use the track as if they were sponsored today, so the playing field should be able to be leveled, so the only difference in the end would be the rider skill and the bike's being older technology.



Haha, ya, it is pointless but I was thinking we would see some interesting race line ups :)






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Offline JohnN

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2010, 05:42:58 PM »
Since pictures are worth like at least a 1,000 words, here is my first pick..


In his prime Rick Johnson was determined, hard working and fit.. that combination with the mighty and powerful Honda 500cc Works bike was nearly unbeatable. The rider that was a carbon copy of RJ was Jeff Stanton.


Bob Hannah in the early 1980's was even better than he had been in the 1970's! On the Honda 250 Works bike he was unstoppable. The only reason that he didn't win a championship that year was because he broke his arm. He was so many points ahead halfway through the season that he finished in the top 10!

I'll look for more...
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Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 05:50:51 PM »
I would actually question how well they'd do, simply because of the track difference.  Between then and now, motocross has become less like riding a bull and more like playing the bass.  It's not a battle to hold on and keep moving as the bike kicks and thrashes around under you, instead, it comes down to keeping a rhythm, at least on the jumpy bits.

However, what I'd like to see is the Top Five riders at Pala squeezed into a DeLorean and taken back to 1983 at Carlsbad, and enter them in that race.  It's the same principle, and I think we'd see roughly the same relative outcome, namely, the outsiders having trouble perfecting a sport significantly different from their own.  I'd also like to see how a 450F would to on the Carlsbad Freeway.  Not only is there a power issue on the way up, but a severely bumpy down-hill doesn't sound like the kind of situation that would play out to well with big engine braking, so they'd have to be paying phenomenal attention.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline riffraff

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 10:35:59 PM »
Since pictures are worth like at least a 1,000 words, here is my first pick..


In his prime Rick Johnson was determined, hard working and fit.. that combination with the mighty and powerful Honda 500cc Works bike was nearly unbeatable. The rider that was a carbon copy of RJ was Jeff Stanton.


Bob Hannah in the early 1980's was even better than he had been in the 1970's! On the Honda 250 Works bike he was unstoppable. The only reason that he didn't win a championship that year was because he broke his arm. He was so many points ahead halfway through the season that he finished in the top 10!

I'll look for more...

That's why I figured those guys would be able to do just as good on their factory 250's they were racing during the same season as the 500's. And as for the difference in tracks from then and now, once your at that level of racing you adapt rather quickly.
aaahhhhh yes, I remember the good old days

Offline JohnN

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2010, 08:38:57 AM »


That's why I figured those guys would be able to do just as good on their factory 250's they were racing during the same season as the 500's. And as for the difference in tracks from then and now, once your at that level of racing you adapt rather quickly.

In some cases, those guys only had to watch someone do something once... then they would be able to do it.  Which is why I asked the questions about if they would get a chance to practice the new style tracks. If they had time to learn them, throttle control, skill and determination are the same skill sets... While Dungey appears to have that same determination it would be interesting to match him (or Stewart or Reed or Carmichael) to RJ and Hannah in their prime.

RJ and Hannah were from a different time... if Hannah could have earned the kind of money that these new guys do, you would see him do ANYTHING to beat them. It was the same with RC...

Jetz... if you think about it a bit, the new rhythm tracks would be even easier... for example RJ liked dance music and had rhythm... Hannah, well he's a different story!! LOL
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Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2010, 12:07:27 PM »
Now this leads to several interesting questions.

1. Exactly how competitive are the 1980s bikes today and what advancements were made that give new bikes the edge over era works bikes?


2. Has the quality of riders deminished if the riders from the 1980s were comparatibly better than today, what exactly happened that caused this?  Are 4 strokes solely to blame? Are the track changes to blame? Is it the loss of privateers (although, all these guys were factory sponsored)
Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2010, 04:52:20 AM »
Well, before I go off to bed at this phenomenally late hour, I'm going to post something from Monkey Butt to illustrate just what kind of men these modern kids would be up against.  In this case, we're talking Bob Hannah.  This tale starts on page 528, for those following along at home (and those who own the book will know that re-locating a section is practically impossible!)

Once he had the bike set up to his liking, Bob fired the Yamaha up, rolled down teh huge hill, and started putting laps on his course.

Ah, yes.  His course.  Earlier in the day, I took some laps around his course on the stock YZ250.  It was a virtual nightmare for a novice rider.  In fact, you had to be at least an intermediate level rider to complete a lap without falling down, or blowing a turn.

Bob designed the course to flow with the terrain.  It would run down a terrifying hill, then drop off into an arroyo via a sheer six-foot ledge.  After a tight turn, you'd have to clamber up another six-foot ledge, force the bike into a tight turn, then climb up a 200-foot off-camber hill.

The course had ugly turns on baked-dry adobe surfaces, long straights on whooped-out sand washes, ultra-tight turns in deep sand, sharp-lipped jumps, cross-grained ruts and nasty little off-camber sections that tried to force the bike off the course if any mistake in weight transfer was made.

It took me a half dozen laps before I was able to make a clean circuit around that tricky course.  Naturally, as more and more laps were put on the course, it became easier to ride, as grooves developed.  However, because the course was based on desert sand, it got rougher and rougher.

Whoops developed everywhere.  You couldn't find a flat straight of any length without a section of wheel-chattering ripples.  And on the long, fast straights, the whoops turned into wheel-swallowing, frame stretching trenches.

After a half dozen laps on Bob's course, my forearms were pumped-out and burning, my legs aching, and sweat was beading up inside my goggles.

Later, with cameras in hand, Paul and I watched Hannah dart around the course at speeds that dazzled us!  Those tight turns at the bottom of the hills were nothing more than a quick blur, as Bob would whip the bike around like a snake on steroids, then literally blast up the next hill!

When he crested the long uphills, the Yamaha would sail into the air and Bob would pitch the bike sideways to set it up for the turn right after the landing.

He'd take the downhills so fast that it looked like he was out of control.  But somehow, he'd brake the bike brutally hard and scrub off enough speed to make the turn at the bottom of the hill.  And he wasn't content to just make the turn.  Instead, the micro-second he got off the brakes and leaned the bike over, he'd hammer the throttle hard and dart through the turn like a roller-coaster car on rails!

During the test day, the mechanics swapped motors in the works 125, trying to find the right combination.  Some of the motors had identical powerbands, but had different ratios in the gearbox.  Some were healthy mid-range motors; you could hear it when Bob rode it, shifting early and letting the engine bark.  Others were RPM monsters that barely made any power at all until 6,000rpm, then exploded like someone throwing on a light switch.

[At this point, Super Hunky gets Hannah to test the '82 YZ, which he thinks is worse than the '81, which was worse than the '80.  Then they have him do some daredevil stunts to get some cool pictures.  I don't feel like all that's relevant enough to type out, this shit takes forever.  Then Bob goes back to testing his works bikes.]

Bob went back and did some more testing on the race 125.  Paul and I kicked back and watched him ride.  Hannah flowed with the bike like it was an extension of his body.  He rode lightly poised on the bike, and never seemed to fight it, even though, every once in a while, the bike would take a wild hop.  Then, Bob would make some sort of body gyration that would save the bike, and the microsecond the rear wheel touched the ground, the power would be back on and the knobby would be throwing a healthy rooster tail!

About ten minutes into a late afternoon testing session on the factory YZ125, we watched Bob come screaming down a long hill under power, only to hear the bike pop into neutral.  A heartbeat later, the YZ hit a bump and the rear end blasted up into the air.  Bob's feet came off the pegs and he did a classic handstand on the bars, while careening down the hill at what surely must have been 50 miles per hour!

Bob flopped down on the tank with his chest, feet dangling out behind him like streamers.  He got his leg down on the left side and stabbed at the shift lever, caught a gear, then hit the throttle hard.  A rooster tail shot out from the rear wheel and the YZ straightened out.

A few car lengths ahead, was an arroyo, with perhaps a ten foot drop-off.  We figured Bob was dead meat and would flop into the arroyo, trying to save the YZ.  There was no way in the world he had enough room to stop the Yamaha in that short distance.

He then did something that stunned both of us.  Hannah grabbed a fistful of throttle and speeded up as he approached the lip of the arroyo, instead of trying to stop the bike.  Right before the lip, he punched the brakes hard, making the front end depress.  As the front end rebounded, Bob hit the throttle hard and the YZ125 popped up into the air, gaining enough height to let the front end clear the opposite side.

Still, the rear wheel slammed hard into the opposite bank.  With this maneuver, Bob was able to get the front end of the bike higher than the top of the landing bank.  When the rear wheel hit, the YZ took yet another lurid hop and the saddle slammed bob in the ass again, ripping his feet off the pegs.

The rear end of the bike lurched to the right side, and Bob was hanging off to the left side, with only his hands on the bars as contact points with the bike.  Before his ass hit the saddle, he nailed the throttle again, and lo and behold!, the goddamn Yamaha actually straightened out and bob flopped back on the saddle.

Without missing a beat, Bob made a quick turn and headed right back onto the course he had laid out, and resumed his hot laps.  Paul and I just looked at each other in utter amazement.  Here was Hannah, somehow pulling off a minor miracle by saving that YZ, and he got right back on the course and kept putting in testing laps!

Bob was really pissed when he got back to the pits.  Yamahas have never been great shifters, and Hannah had been bitching about it long and hard for years.  He cornered one of the Japanese engineers and gave him the riot act.  "You fuck-heads!  When are you gonna learn how to make a bike shift?  I nearly killed my ass out there on this piece of shit!  You call this a bike?"

Meanwhile, the [engineer] would just smile a whole lot and nod his head up and down, hoping Bob would get out of his face.  Hannah would then slip into a sing-song imitation of a Japanese accent:  "Lookee here, fish-head-san.  This bikee no shiftee worth a fuckee."


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline SachsGS

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2010, 05:05:36 PM »
If we limit the discussion to two strokes the three biggest advancements since the 80's would be:

  1.Disk brakes - one finger stops and drum brakes were scary when they got wet.

  2.Powervalved and watercooled engines - gobs of smooth power.

  3.Position sensitive cartridge damping suspension - keeping everything under control.

Handling? I'm not so sure about this one. I'm not impressed with a few of the latest bikes I've ridden. Mind you I'm thinking from a hare scrambles/cross country perspective and what I'm specifically addressing is steering "feel" or response to steering inputs.

How competitive are bikes from the 80's? The only make I would consider riding are Maicos.Twenty plus years is a long time.

I personally don't think that the quality of riders has diminished over the years and the "naturals" will always rise to the top and dominate the sport.Mind you, having watched guys like Hannah and Chandler ride the ragged edge could change my mind.

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 05:29:46 PM »
By the mid 1980s, everyone went to disk brakes, by 1987 pretty much all bikes were front and back disk brakes.

The early 1980s saw the small bores go to water cooling, the mid 1980s saw the big bores.  Only a few big bores didn't have water cooling, i.e. Yamaha YZ 490 never had and Suzuki killed their big bore line up after 84.

The mid 1980s saw power valves in pretty much all small bores.  Big bores, well, kawasaki had them, Maico had them in 1988 (86 on the small bores) ( a 1988 Maico 490 has water cooling, front/back disk brakes and power valve) and Honda never put them in their CR500.

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Offline TMKIWI

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2010, 06:17:24 PM »
I choose the 1996 KTM 360 for this excercise because it is the most "modern" bike of the era you are talking about.
It is also the last 2 stroke to win the World 500cc Championship.
Not sure how much difference there would be between a 96 "works" bike and a modern bike in the suspension department.
Less difference then between a 70's & 80's bike or 80's & 90's bike I would think.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Dream Team Race Exercise in Thought
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2010, 11:47:01 PM »
I would be reluctant to talk about a 1996, simply because that seems too new to really be relevant.  I mean, just how much has really been done to the two-strokes since '96?  A little tweaking here and there, but if you changed the plastics on a '96 you could probably fool a lot of people into thinking it was fairly new.  If this were my thought experiment, I'd set it up so that if there's no Hammer & Tongs class where it fits, it's too new.  That would really separate the bikes out a lot more.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?