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Offline Cable Stretcher

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2010, 06:49:13 AM »
Dogger, I am currious to how you spent 17,000 on a 2t.  The only way I can see 17k is if you put 5k worth of suspension on it.  I have everything done to my engine and it cost me less than 2,500 parts and labor, now this is with me removing the engine myself but still.  I am not calling you a liar, I am just trying to understand.  I know that labor might have cost more back then because 2t's were more popular.

Offline dogger315

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2010, 10:49:48 AM »
Quote
I am currious to how you spent 17,000 on a 2t.
No problem, I'll break it down for you:

Tom Morgan Racing built engine - $3000
Pro Circuit works suspension - $6500
Titanium hardware (fastners, linkage, pegs, etc)  - $3200
Excel rims, superlight hubs, SS spokes - $1000
Titanium fork and shock springs - $1200
Misc items (triple clamps, handlebars, chain,
sprockets, skid plate, pipe, silencer, cables,
adj. clutch perch, air filters and cages, etc., etc.)  - $1500
2003 Honda CR250 - $6000

Total with the bike: $22,400
The total doesn't include incidentals like labor for frame gusseting,
skid plate mounts, airbox mods, Dunlop RR tires, VP MR2 fuel.

This bike could hang with the 450s, but it cost a bunch to do it.
That was the main reason I eventually switched.

Here are some pictures of my 2002 which was virtually identical
to my '03.

dogger

 





Here is a pic of the shock off the bike

Offline ferrahount

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2010, 11:07:12 AM »
Wow!!!
Talk about a beautiful bike!!!  :o (and huge amount of money hahahaha!)

As many people around I rode and race my 250SX in the regional MX championship here in my country, and did the big step to the national championship last year. I felt that, even if I relly loved my 2S, I should ride a 450F in order to race in the nationals. I knew a lot about 2 strokes, I knew the lies about 4 stroke marketing, but still I sold my smoker to get a thumper.
In short, I rode just a few races because I wasn't comfortable with the bike, I'd lost the joy to ride, I became lazy and really wasn't going faster. I never get used or liked the way the thumper handles neither the engine and I wasn't so exited about riding or racing as I was the year before on the 2 stroke.
Now, after paying attention to my heart and also to the mind part that always knew the advantages of the smoker, I'm selling my 450F to buy a 250 2 stroke for this year races, to recover the fun factor and the joy to ride and practice the sport I loved since I was a child (even if I could not began to practice it until I get older) MOTOCROSS.
My heart beats every cycle, so does my bike!

Offline JohnN

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2010, 11:14:09 AM »
Quote
I am currious to how you spent 17,000 on a 2t.
No problem, I'll break it down for you:

Tom Morgan Racing built engine - $3000
Pro Circuit works suspension - $6500
Titanium hardware (fastners, linkage, pegs, etc)  - $3200
Excel rims, superlight hubs, SS spokes - $1000
Titanium fork and shock springs - $1200
Misc items (triple clamps, handlebars, chain,
sprockets, skid plate, pipe, silencer, cables,
adj. clutch perch, air filters and cages, etc., etc.)  - $1500
2003 Honda CR250 - $6000

Total with the bike: $22,400
The total doesn't include incidentals like labor for frame gusseting,
skid plate mounts, airbox mods, Dunlop RR tires, VP MR2 fuel.

This bike could hang with the 450s, but it cost a bunch to do it.
That was the main reason I eventually switched.

Here are some pictures of my 2002 which was virtually identical
to my '03.

dogger

 





Here is a pic of the shock off the bike

Dogger, that is one mighty impressive machine!!

Out of curiosity, how did you do when you switched to the four-stroke? How many National events did you compete in? And what did it cost you to set up the four-stroke?
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline westsiderippa

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2010, 11:54:48 AM »
that is a beautiful bike.

Offline Cable Stretcher

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2010, 12:30:30 PM »
Nice bike.  Thanks for breaking it down for me.  It is kinda jacked up that PC doesn't include ti springs on ther "works" suspension, (to me works means the works ie. everything).  Just out of curiosity how much weight savings was there in replacing everything with TI hardware.  What kind of frame gusseting did you have done and was it a noticable difference?  How often did you have to freshen that engine?  What was the cost difference when you switched to the 4t?  Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 02:20:52 PM by Cable Stretcher »

Offline 2smoker

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2010, 02:43:29 PM »
just wow! What a beautiful bike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-*
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline dogger315

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 09:49:15 AM »
Quote
I rode just a few races because I wasn't comfortable with the bike, I'd lost the joy to ride
That's a pretty good summary of the way I felt, ferrahout.  I had never raced/ridden anything but two
strokes off road and could never get comfortable on a four stroke.  It was a lot less fun for sure.

Quote
How many National events did you compete in?
John, as you know, I raced my first event as a pro in '79 so I am definitely on the back side of Jody's
(Weisel) speed bell curve.  My pro/Nationals days are a distant memory now.
Quote
how did you do when you switched to the four-stroke?
More bad than good.  I couldn't come to terms with the extra weight and engine braking aspects compared
to the CR I just jumped off of.  I spent a lot of money putting the CRF on a diet and added a slipper clutch
to help make the bike behave more like my CRs but it was a lost cause and I found I began to lose my
enthusiasm for racing and as a result, my training and ultimately my speed dropped off.  Looking back on
it, the decision to switch was a big, costly (time and money) mistake.
Quote
And what did it cost you to set up the four-stroke?
I left the engines mostly stock (it had plenty of power).  I added a White Bros Carbon Pro exhaust, a Twin
Air Power Flow Filter kit and, since I was racing amateur, VP U2 oxygenated fuel.  The above mods were
good for about 6 more hp.  I spent the biggest bucks on lightening the bike by replacing every thing made
from steel with carbon fiber or titanium.  I bolted on a Pro Circuit "Works" suspension, oversized disc rotors
(to help slow the pig down) and a bunch of little items to help with hot starts and to make the bike fit
better.  Totals including the cost of a new bike each year, ranged from $19,000 in '04 to $21,000 in '06.
The big wammy was the cost of maintenance and replacement parts needed during a normal season of
racing.  That budget was more than double what I spent racing CRs and engine reliabilty/duarability was
still poor.
Quote
It is kinda jacked up that PC doesn't include ti springs on ther "works" suspension
I don't have a problem with that.  The Ti springs react a little different than a steel spring of the
same weight.  Switching between the two gives me just another option to dial it in.  I am greatfull
companies like Pro Circuit are offering this level of suspension to the public.  I know it's expensive,
but the performance capability these components offer is worth every penny.
Quote
Just out of curiosity how much weight savings was there in replacing everything with TI hardware.
   
Close to ten pounds with the biggest savings coming from the shock spring, linkage and axles.
Quote
What kind of frame gusseting did you have done and was it a noticable difference?
Basically we added some stiffeners around the steering stem and ran beads all the way around
areas that were only spot welded at the factory.  The goal was to increase reliabilty and delay
"frame spread".
Quote
How often did you have to freshen that engine?
When I was racing every weekend (back when I was "serious") I would replace the top end weekly.
The clutch pack after every moto/practice, and the bottom end would get checked every four races
mostly because I had more money than sense.  Most of these slightly used parts would end up in my
practice bikes throughout the season.  Back in the day, I had two complete race motors and two
complete suspension sets.  One would be at the shop for rebuild/refresh while the other was being
raced each week.  Truth be told, I believe an A/pro level rider could could get by with a top end
replacement every four races and use the same bottom end for the whole season with complete
reliability.  A B/intermediate racer could double that.  Try doing that on a four stroke - BOOOOM!
 
Looking back, the baddest CRs I ever raced were my '00 and '01.  I nicknamed my '00 "Christine" after
a couple of "soil samples", that bike demanded respect or else.  TMR built me the motor of doom and
after a lot of testing, I managed to get the frame and suspension dialed in.  The '02 and later CRs were
definitely a step back in performance power wise.  In my opinion, The HPP valve engine was light years
better than the case reed, and I believe that design stumble hastened the defections to the four
strokes, at least among Honda riders. 

dogger 


Offline meger z

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 10:58:20 AM »
wow thats grate info i love this site  :D

Offline admiral

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 04:34:54 PM »
i was suprised to see the stock Mikuni carb on that fancy bike. i thought a 38 PWK would have been used. did you do any testing with one?

Offline KXwestYZ

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2010, 08:21:40 PM »
Hey westsiderippa - Man.... your story is so similar to many people out there. You prefer the two-stroke and want to race it but feel that you would be at a big disadvantage by choosing the two-stroke.

I hear you!!!

But the question is, are you really giving something up? Is the two-stroke really at a dis-advantage?

If you search your heart of hearts you will find that it does not have to be that way. You said "i raced a few events last year on my cr250 and can tell you first hand that displacement sucks. tracks like glen helen, hangtown, honey lake etc.. a 450 will eat up a 250 and thats just common sense." do you really believe that?

If so, that is the first "strike" against you.

As an example I will use a local Pro/Expert Racer in my area, Mike Leavitt. He too felt that in order to be competitive that he had to race the four-stroke bikes. He was on track to be a Pro racer, but had so many engine failures with his four-strokes that it was just crazy.

At mid-season in 2009 he finally had enough and parked his 450F and started to race his YZ250 two-stroke. He also raced the 25 Plus class with the same machine. What happened? His first race out on the two-stroke, he won all four motos!!!

He decided that he preferred the two-stroke and would beat the 450f's at their own game and he did. He won the 250 Expert (450F) and Plus 25 classes on his 250 two-stroke. The funny part of this story is that some people thought that he was cheating and using an over-bore!! But no one actually put up the protest fee, most likely for fear that it was only 250cc and they would look silly.

So the question for you is, do you really want to race the two-stroke? Because it can be done. Where can the 250 two-stroke beat the 450's?? In the corners. I know that so many people love jumps and jumping, but if you take the time to learn how to corner and get yourself into pretty good shape, you can win.

But you have another option as well... get a purpose built 300 MX machine! KTM has a bolt on kit for the 250SX and TM Racing has a purpose built 300MX... with the extra 50cc's you gain additional torque equal to or more than the 450F's and yet have a lighter machine. The best of all worlds.

I believe that you can do it!! Good luck!

By the way... congratulations on your engagement!

Why is no one suggesating this guy gets a Service Honda / Kawasaki 500?

Offline JohnN

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2010, 04:04:21 AM »
KXwestYZ - The main reason no one suggested it was these two comments in the opening post,

"im not willing to spend the coin on an AF 500 and really want to go 2t. "

and this one,

"so.. im thinking yz250 ktm 250sx. im leaning toward the yz because my mechanic i ride for is a master of that bike and the cost of parts will be cheaper and more readilly available."

Of course for some folks the Service Honda will be the best option and for others it may be a TM, Maico, Husqvarna, Gas Gas, KTM or even a Yamaha.

Our suggestions to him were based on his wants and needs....
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline admiral

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2010, 08:05:08 AM »
getting back to westsiderippa's original topic i will give my opinion even though it's worthless. i raced 500 MX for years and owned 3 CR500's and 3 KX500's between the the years '88-'03. as much as i love open 2T bikes they get harder to race the older you get. with job and family commitments as you get older finding the time to train for racing (riding for fun is a different story) them is difficult. hanging on to those brutes really takes it out of you quickly and if you can only ride on weekends that's another disadvantage being magnified by the big bike. the first time i rode a 450F at the track after getting off a 500 i couldn't believe how easy it was to ride. i think the 300cc idea is the way to go if you want to ride against 450F's. a 300 could have a broad power band with more torque and not be as peaky as a 250 making it easier to ride. 

Offline dogger315

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2010, 09:54:40 AM »
Quote
i was suprised to see the stock Mikuni carb on that fancy bike. i thought a 38 PWK would have been used. did you do any testing with one?
Good catch admiral.  Actually I did test several different carbs.  These pictures were taken right after
the bike was completed.  Quite a few changes were made throughout the season.  I tried and liked the
Keihin 38mm PWK quad vent air striker better then the TMX but the final carb was a "boutique" Keihin
PWK with TPS and a power valve.  That carb was programmed via a ton of testing and a JD dual map
ignition to provide a start powerband and, through the flick of a handlebar mounted switch after rounding
the first turn, a "rest of the race" powerband.  The carb also performed better across the board than any
other carb I tried.

Quote
as much as i love open 2T bikes they get harder to race the older you get.
Man, that is a true statement.  I have never been so hammered as I was after every open
class race I competed in.  Even if you are a naturally smooth rider, those bikes will beat you
up and it only gets worse with age.  I love riding the big two strokes, but if I ever raced one
again, it would be the only class I would enter that day - just for the extra recovery time
between motos.

dogger

Offline westsiderippa

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Re: need help, lets hear it!!!
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2010, 10:07:01 AM »
well, thank you all for your ideas here. i have multiple calls out looking for a 09 yz right now. i also have a few calls around on slightly used ones. my 450 is also forsale right now and i have a few interested in it. im sold on the yz but tracking one down is not as easy as i thought. also no one has 2010's around me yet and 7g's for a 2t, what? as for riding a 500, im not afraid of it and have  rode them before. i ride 3-4 days a week year round. i have been training really hard this year and my focus right now is arean x. i really want to make it to vegas. a 500 would be out of control on an ax track. its hard enough trying to muscle a 450 around. my other goal is to try and make it through a qualifier to a regional. i know i wont make it to lorretas but to get to a regional this year is my goal. im lucky right now because im 32, only work 10 days a month, no kids and a lovely bride that supports racing.