Maint Costs, KTM 2T versus 4T

[citabjockey]

There is a Rickey Renner thread over on KTM talk. Some real 4T aficionados over there. So of course there is a big 2T versus 4T discussion going on. The latest? Someone went through the manual of a 450 and a of a 300/250 and compared scheduled replacement parts cost for 80 hours (only 80 hours mind you) between the two bikes for pistons, rings, valve gear, etc. This is not labor. Here is the summary:

i went ahead and added that up for you guys so you don't have to waist your time

at 80 hours of racing by the book the 450 is @ $3,937 and that doesn't included gaskets and seal or any machine work or having someone rebuild the crank. not to mention any parts that may need replaced after the long list of things to check for wear. just consider it well over $4,000 @ 80 hours.

now for the 250 2t after 80 hours of racing your at $316.11 + gaskets and seals and there may be somethings to replace after inspecting the short list of things to inspect for wear. but you should still come in well under $500.

its easy to see why the some manufactures want you to only ride 4t's.

I knew there was a significant difference but was a bit surprised at just how much.  

[chump6784]

In the manual for my brothers 250f it says to check the valves more often than change the oil. Kind of hard to go off user manuals.

The guy who did my suspension recently used to work for geico Honda, he rides an RM 125 and said he wouldn't own a 4 stroke. That says something

[Dirtsaw]

4 strokes are disposable bikes.  Once they blow up, just get another one cuz fixing them does not guarantee you'll get the same life out of a rebuild.  Seen and heard of many never running the same even after being fixed by a professional mechanic. 

[citabjockey]

The comparison was of costs for the two bikes -- both from their manuals. So any over or under emphasis was common mode for the two estimates. And those provided a situation where the 2T was 10% (1) of the 4T for 80 hours of use!

Kind of hard to go off user manuals.

[TMKIWI]

The guy who did my suspension recently used to work for geico Honda, he rides an RM 125 and said he wouldn't own a 4 stroke. That says something

Funny you say that.
My suspension guy has been BT101 mechanic for years.
Quess what he rides. 

 RM125. 

[Sheriff]

I'm sorry to tell you this is BS. Manual maintenance schedule is plain stupid. There's no way a modern 450 can't go 125+ hours without doing anything more to the engine than changing the oil and maintaining the air filter. I sold my 08 RMZ to one of my friends. Almost 100 hours and the valves have yet to move.

In the real world, long term maintenance is pretty even between 2T and 4T. True, there are more moving parts to replace on a 4T. But wear parts need to be changed more often on a 2T, so in the long run it evens out. If you change your bike every year, not taking buying price and resale value into account, a 4T is plain cheaper to own. The 2T is cheaper to buy and will most likely sell for more $ though, so it's still pretty even there.

It's not 1998 anymore guys.

[factoryX]

^ Total BS...

[VintageBlueSmoke]

I (and just about everyone with a calculator) will disagree with you Sheriff, however, you raise a good point. You said "If you change your bike every year...". Since all the 4$ list at more than $1000 more than the equivalent 2T, that $1000 will buy you a lot of top end jobs in the year before it "evens out". And that assumes you are not putting ring and piston on your 4$. Then, when you sell or trade in for a new model, the 2T will bring more money, which puts it again in the lead of 'cheaper to own'.

I also want to point out that you and chump6784 are also correct that maintenance schedules are overzealous to say the least and that most people don't follow them, however one thing we can all agree on is that the manual is the recommended parts wear period from the manufacturer. Using that schedule, an 80 hour rebuild, and this persons (on Vital) parts cost list, the 4T is almost twice as expensive to own before resale (which we agreed, you'll get more for the 2T).

In addition, the 4T required more preventive maintenance. Some of which "Dad" might not be qualified to do (although I contend that is a very poor excuse - frikken learn it).

I will give the 4$ lovers that MOST riders will be faster on the 4$ - even with equal displacement - in more situations, than on the 2$. I know I am even though I am uncomfortable and fall more. However, "can be" faster on the 2T and I enjoy myself more (I also have 17 bikes, anything that reduces maintenance short of not riding them is a big plus in my book!) and that is the most important part.

[fabbo]

I am sorry but I know guys who own blown 4 strokes and are only weekend warriors, and there fourstrokes blew up within hours of having them fixed. My car mechanic said he would never touch another four stroke dirtbike ever again. He thinks they are fixed correctly and something else F#@K's up which causes the engine to seize. He hates working on them he has 4 two strokes and two banshees no fourstrokes he got rid of them all. just to unreliable. I have another friend who is also a car mechanic he bought a brand new 2010 WR250F, he cannot work on the engine himself to complicated, makes sure the dealer does all the work, he finally sold it because it was so unreliable and expensive to maintain something about shims or valves or something he sold the WRF. He bought a Yz 250 twostroke he says it is harder to ride but more reliable and the engine is a breeze to work on, he really enjoys jumping it over tabletops he finds it easier than his 250f for that. If you gave me a four stroke I would only ride it till it died, ( which probably would not be to long) and would not even contemplate repairing those ticking time bombs.

[chump6784]

Have to agree with Sheriff in a way. User manuals say to adjust/check the valves on new 250f's at 15 hours, my mechanic says that is way over kill. when he checked my brothers valves at 15 hours he told him it was a waste of time but he owed him and did it just to show him anyway. i know one guy that has gone nearly 200 hours on the original top end of his crf 450 with only valve adjustments and even those didnt really need doing.

at 80 hours you would have done a piston and rings in both bikes and really that should be about it. you may be ready for valves in the 4 stroke but that is a maybe. over here we pay $30 for 1 litre of premix. you dont have that cost on a 4 stroke, you have engine oil but you have that in a two stroke as well. other than that if you dont replace anything else on the 4 stroke there isnt much else to account for. that quote for the 4 stroke was way over the top, i have talked to people that have had 2 strokes and then gone to 4 strokes and they all say the difference isnt that much. the real difference is if you have a blow up.

4 strokes have gotten a lot more reliable over the last few years and the actual cost difference of general maintenance is closer than it used to be. in the real world 80 hours wouldnt be a big service on a 4 stroke especially a 450. i would suspect that the average guy would spend 4k on parts for a 4 stroke after nearly double that.

[Shawn36]

You need to separate 250F and 450 when talking about maintenance costs.  I've owned 450s from 2004 through 2009, all of them ridden weekly with just oil changes.  My '09 only got a top end after nearly 200 hours on the clock.  The 250Fs are a totally different story though. 

Honestly in comparison the 2-stroke has cost me more to maintain but it's also 10 years old.  It needed new bearings and other long term wear items pretty bad. 

[MetalMike1982]

I'm sorry to tell you this is BS. Manual maintenance schedule is plain stupid. There's no way a modern 450 can't go 125+ hours without doing anything more to the engine than changing the oil and maintaining the air filter. I sold my 08 RMZ to one of my friends. Almost 100 hours and the valves have yet to move.

In the real world, long term maintenance is pretty even between 2T and 4T. True, there are more moving parts to replace on a 4T. But wear parts need to be changed more often on a 2T, so in the long run it evens out. If you change your bike every year, not taking buying price and resale value into account, a 4T is plain cheaper to own. The 2T is cheaper to buy and will most likely sell for more $ though, so it's still pretty even there.

It's not 1998 anymore guys.

What planet are you from ? " title="Roll Eyes" class="smiley"> 100hrs without touching the valves ?You should have written a book . I talked to a couple of different parents of kids that ride 2 strokes last night at Dade city mx yz125,yz250 and both said they had been the 4 stroke route and it was just flat out to expensive to keep the bikes running . These werent c class riders either , both were smoking everything on the track . To say a 2t is more $ to up keep than a 4 is completely crazy , My rm125 has cost me $93 to rebuild in almost 3 years of ownership . What would $93 get you on a 4 stroke ?

[MetalMike1982]

Its funny you talk about an 08 rmz because a good friend of mine thats a b class mxer has a 2008rmz 450 that he bought brand new and its been completely gone through 5 times so far (crank,bearings,piston,valves,etc.) and his room mate has an 09 crf450 and geuss what 2 complete engine rebuilds and its coming up on its 3rd as we speak and he's had it barely over a year . Needless to say his 93 cr250 is on the same topend since 98  . Another friend had a trx450r quad bought brandnew to trail ride on a beginner level , it was babied ,maintained, and treated like a show queen . 32hrs hits and the motor grenaded everything , cases and all . was going to cost him close to $3000 to fix so he parted it out instead .  Joe Picone (Mike Picone's dad promxer) personally told me that at 25hrs they rebuild everything to keep  catastrophic failure from happening he also said anything over 30hrs is flirting with disaster .

[Recovered]

What planet are you from ? " title="Roll Eyes" class="smiley"> 100hrs without touching the valves ?You should have written a book . I talked to a couple of different parents of kids that ride 2 strokes last night at Dade city mx yz125,yz250 and both said they had been the 4 stroke route and it was just flat out to expensive to keep the bikes running . These werent c class riders either , both were smoking everything on the track . To say a 2t is more $ to up keep than a 4 is completely crazy , My rm125 has cost me $93 to rebuild in almost 3 years of ownership . What would $93 get you on a 4 stroke ?

Dade Squiddy!

Did you go to ride, or just hang out?

I'm going to make a trip down to FL and ride later this year.  Dade Shitty is on my list.

[Recovered]

Its funny you talk about an 08 rmz because a good friend of mine thats a b class mxer has a 2008rmz 450 that he bought brand new and its been completely gone through 5 times so far (crank,bearings,piston,valves,etc.) and his room mate has an 09 crf450 and geuss what 2 complete engine rebuilds and its coming up on its 3rd as we speak and he's had it barely over a year . Needless to say his 93 cr250 is on the same topend since 98  . Another friend had a trx450r quad bought brandnew to trail ride on a beginner level , it was babied ,maintained, and treated like a show queen . 32hrs hits and the motor grenaded everything , cases and all . was going to cost him close to $3000 to fix so he parted it out instead .  Joe Picone (Mike Picone's dad promxer) personally told me that at 25hrs they rebuild everything to keep  catastrophic failure from happening he also said anything over 30hrs is flirting with disaster .

Picone got DQ'd earlier this year on a sound violation.  They must have forgot to re-pack the silencer.