Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: JohnN on June 30, 2010, 09:00:43 PM
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Hey Guys,
Check this out!!
Aaron Vincer of Byron MX talks two-strokes with Project Two 50 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBDfi5Jl_KM#)
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Please send this video to the CEO's of Honda,Yamaha,Kawasaki,Suzuki.
Hopefully they will listen to what the public wants.
Well I am alowed to dream. :) ain"t I ?
Keep up the good work
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This says it all. I agree. By the way last motogp in Assen the Netherlands only 15 bikes. Also because of this 4 strokes getting much too expensive for the private racer. Motox is a sport for all not only the rich and 3000 for blown up engine is really much too much money for most of us.
Perhaps 4 strokes are better. Perhaps!!! But only a few benefit from this.
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I was just talking with my dad the other day about how cheap of a hobby riding is. Sure, there's the $2-3K initial cost you pay for a bike, plus a few other things like tie downs, gas cans, and maybe a few tools. But after that, unless you neglect the bike or do very hard riding on a small machine, you've only got to pay for premix (and at 30mpg+ that's no big deal), some oil for the transmission (which is far less than what you put into any car), and the occasional odds and ends that need to be replaced, usually things like grips, tires, spokes, etc, most of which will last five years or so. We've almost never had to do a top end, and I don't think we even once had to replace a clutch or transmission. A two-stroke motorcycle is just a long-lasting bastard, which is usually cheap to maintain and run. Even when we were doing model railroads, it was more expensive than keeping the bikes going. To take such a sweet and cheap deal and add frequent and expensive four-stroke rebuilds would just be crippling. If it were a matter of "four-strokes or nothing," I'd abandon riding and get a Dodge Challenger instead.
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Very good interview. You need to convince that guy to sell his 4-joke and buy a smoker.
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Nice interview, but why did he state he rides a four stroke because that is all you can get. There are still amazing two strokes available!!! :P
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He sounds like a no bones, tell you like it is, guy. I hope his buisness picks up.
We need more people like him, and like Coop said, convince him to sell that 4t.
Good point TMKIWI, this video needs to get around, espcially to the big 4.
I'm kinda jealous, he got to touch project two50 bike. :o
Now that I got to thinking, he coulda been one of those undercover guys from the black helicopters. ;D
You guys did camo the tops of the truck and trailer?
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Without tracks there is no sport. Period. This video says it all! Anybody cant post that link on Vital.. I wanna see the drama! LOL
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It was all so good until he said that HE rides a 4-stroke and for me that just completely undone everything that had gone before.
That probably seems harsh and maybe it is, but if he genuinely believed in what he was saying I can't see how he can then support the four-stroke by buying one. I'm sorry but for me it only emphasises the hypocrisy of everything else he said.
Talk is cheap and plentiful but it alone will not save the 2-stroke off-road bike.
I know I'll probably get jumped on for saying this but I honestly feel that the battle is being lost and it hurts,.........badly!
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maybe if we can pursue this issue:
Typical rebuild costs
2 stroke:
Crank-$200, Piston-$127, Bearings/seal kit-$65, Gasket set-$78 = $460 and can be done in 3-4 hrs.
Mods:
Full Pipe kit-300
Aftermarket complete cylinder head- $179 with 2 dome choices.
Port/Polish cylinder and piston-$220
4 stroke:
Crank-$237, Piston-$275, Bearings/seals-$65, Gaskets-$156, cam chain-$75 = $808 built in 6-8 hrs
Mods:
Full pipe kit-$652
Complete cylinder head mod using your head-$1200-1500 (Ported/Polished, stronger valves, springs, cams)
Lets do the math here.....ahhhh....I'll stay 2 stroke
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You have to include valves,valve guides,v g seals,valve seat refinishing and sometimes valve springs in the four stroke overhaul costs.
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Don't be to hard on Aron he runs a top notch facility and like his dad they really put forth a huge effort to support our sport, besides he is a really big dude and needs the extra power to go fast around the track. Byron is one of my favorite tracks it is very fast and long a real work out!!!!! LET'RR BUCK!!!!!!!
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It was all so good until he said that HE rides a 4-stroke and for me that just completely undone everything that had gone before.
That probably seems harsh and maybe it is, but if he genuinely believed in what he was saying I can't see how he can then support the four-stroke by buying one. I'm sorry but for me it only emphasises the hypocrisy of everything else he said.
Talk is cheap and plentiful but it alone will not save the 2-stroke off-road bike.
I know I'll probably get jumped on for saying this but I honestly feel that the battle is being lost and it hurts,.........badly!
I have to agree.
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The last year here in Florida has been amazing. We started racing the Florida Motocross season about 3 years ago. We were on an 85 but my son was about to out grow his 85 last year. Well with the economy the way it is I could not aford a new bike (4-stroke). But his older brother had a 125 two stroke and did not ride much anymore so this is what we were going to race. Well 3 years ago almost no two strokes other that 50,s and 85,s. 2 years ago with the rule change some of the riders started riding 250 two strokes and winning. This year its like a renaissance for the two stroke.As some of you know my son rides the 250c class at the begining of the year there were about 3 to 4 two strokes,Well now there is about half and some who were on 125's now have 250 two strokes.
One of the fathers I was talking to only a few weeks ago who's son is one of the top riders on a Kaw 250 4 stroke said they were looking for a 250 two stroke to be competitive and already bought a Yz 125 for the school boy class.
Also the amount of riders has gone down more than half. Most of the fathers I've talked to said they went to the Two stroke was becaused they blew up there 4 stroke. One father who's son rides the 250b class and the 450b class and is in second place in the points for them last year they had two crf450's and blew them both up the same day! Sold one for the frame and rebuilt the other one and sold it. They bought two YZ250's to race otherwize they could not aford to race.
Down here they are comming around fast I just hope the track promoters can last long enought for the attendance to turn around.
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It was all so good until he said that HE rides a 4-stroke and for me that just completely undone everything that had gone before.
That probably seems harsh and maybe it is, but if he genuinely believed in what he was saying I can't see how he can then support the four-stroke by buying one. I'm sorry but for me it only emphasises the hypocrisy of everything else he said.
Talk is cheap and plentiful but it alone will not save the 2-stroke off-road bike.
I know I'll probably get jumped on for saying this but I honestly feel that the battle is being lost and it hurts,.........badly!
Don't be so hard on Aaron, he only got to ride his bike TWICE this year! He and his wife have their hands full with three children under 3 years old!
It was so cool seeing his face when Mike started up the bike... he loved it.
As for some folks wanting or liking four-strokes instead.... if you think about it that's cool too. When I watch some people ride, they do not have enough experience to ride a two-stroke. Some do not have the time to ride often, like Aaron. For some of these people it's best to be on a four-stroke.
Our goal is to even up the displacement in order to make two-stroke competitive with the four-stroke, not to entirely eliminate them...
At least that's how I see it.
With that line of thinking you are sort of saying that no one should use four-strokes at all. Is that true? Then what kind of engine is in your car or truck? What kind of lawn mower do you have?
The right tool for the job is what I say! Sometimes the four-stroke can be fun too. Just don't artificially force everyone to abandon the two-stroke by making a displacement advantage for the four-stroke.
I willing to listen to other opinions, but this seems to make the most sense to me!
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I agree with you John, I don't hate 4 strokes I hate the rules. I firmly believe in different strokes for different folks, just so happens that I only need two strokes ;D
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Well John, though I agree with you that I don't hate four strokes, I just prefer 2 strokes (2t); I think the point the others are saying is this. If you are going to post an interview of a track owner praising the benefits and joys of two strokes, and how 4 strokes (4t) have hurt his business, having him say at the end "I ride a 4t, we all do..." kind of ruins the validity of the interview to me. If he loves them as much as he says, and if 4t's really are that damaging to his livelihood, he should be supporting 2t by riding one. Only getting to ride a few times a year certainly sucks, but I took a ten (10) year hiatus from dirt riding, jumped back on a KX125 and have had zero problems with the re-learning curve. And 125's are not exactly to tool of choice for tight PA trails, lol. He could sell his 4t, buy a nice modern 2t and do just as well, because in my opinion a properly tuned and set-up 2t really isn't hard to ride. Think about it, 15 years ago before the 4t "invasion", what did all the inexperienced races ride? Yep, 2t. If they learned on them back then, why can't they learn on them now?
I am not saying 4t should go away, I am just trying to show you the other side of your logic. I liked the interview and think he seems like a nice, cool guy. I just wish if he was really sincere about his preference for 2t's, that he would have left that part of his interview out.
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Well John, though I agree with you that I don't hate four strokes, I just prefer 2 strokes (2t); I think the point the others are saying is this. If you are going to post an interview of a track owner praising the benefits and joys of two strokes, and how 4 strokes (4t) have hurt his business, having him say at the end "I ride a 4t, we all do..." kind of ruins the validity of the interview to me. If he loves them as much as he says, and if 4t's really are that damaging to his livelihood, he should be supporting 2t by riding one. Only getting to ride a few times a year certainly sucks, but I took a ten (10) year hiatus from dirt riding, jumped back on a KX125 and have had zero problems with the re-learning curve. And 125's are not exactly to tool of choice for tight PA trails, lol. He could sell his 4t, buy a nice modern 2t and do just as well, because in my opinion a properly tuned and set-up 2t really isn't hard to ride. Think about it, 15 years ago before the 4t "invasion", what did all the inexperienced races ride? Yep, 2t. If they learned on them back then, why can't they learn on them now?
I am not saying 4t should go away, I am just trying to show you the other side of your logic. I liked the interview and think he seems like a nice, cool guy. I just wish if he was really sincere about his preference for 2t's, that he would have left that part of his interview out.
Coop, I hear what you're saying and do not disagree.... just an additional thought here, what if seeing the project two 50 bike was enough to get him to change back to a two-stroke?
The other thing is that I didn't want to edit or change what Aaron had to say. This is for a few reasons, but he did this off the top of his head and the sincerity and honesty he showed were compelling.
But with that said, hearing him say some of that stuff was disappointing to me as well. But it was the truth as he saw it.
Seeing Aaron's face when we pulled the bike out of the truck, then started it up was absolutely priceless. It just may have been the tipping point for him to switch back as well.
This is just my opinion... honestly I do understand where you guys are coming from. It's just that I willing to let the guy decide which he prefers for himself.
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I would never expect you to edit his (or anybody's) interview, I am just saying I wish he didn't say that, that's all. If manufacturer's see even track owner's turning their back's on 4t maybe it will help them start producing some 2t again. Wishful thinking I know, but a guy can dream :) . But I agree, he seems like he is on the edge and I hope seeing that bike pushed him over it :D .
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Seeing Aaron's face when we pulled the bike out of the truck, then started it up was absolutely priceless. It just may have been the tipping point for him to switch back as well.
Now that really would be the good.
Hell, I might even manage a smile!
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Personally I think the racing would be more exciting with both the smokers and strokers in the 250 class. Each machine handles some of the track obstacles differently. They take different lines, which i think will allow the racing to be more exciting. I say pick your stroke, 2 or 4 line em up, and lets have fun....
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I just want to say I agree with different strokes for different folks but the comment that really pissed me off the most was'nt anything Aaron said it was what G-Money said in his post!"he's a really big dude and needs the extra power to go fast around the track" >:( What's that BS G-Money?Are you implying that the 4-stroke has extra or more power than a 2-stroke or what?!If Aaron is a "big dude"as you say & a 250 2-stroke does'nt have enough power for him there are plenty of 500cc. 2-strokes that SUCH A LARGE GUY LIKE AARON COULD USE TO GET HIS LARGE BODY AROUND THE TRACK PLENTY FAST!!!Hell,Maico even makes a 700cc 2-stroke but it does'nt look to me like he's so large that a good running 250 2-stroke could'nt haul his a$$ around the track plenty fast! >:D It's starting to look to me like we have a "POSER"here on this 2-stroke MX site! >:(
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Being there and listening to him talk i would say his next bike will be a 2t.To be honest i do not think he will have a problem with the yz 250 not having enough power especially if he gets it microblued like the race bike.I am 250lbs and rode the stock practice bike and the race bike back to back and either one has plenty of power for a bigger guy.Now the race bike all i can say is :o it sure is fast! :P
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I assure you maicoman I've got pre mix running in my viens,so with all this concern about why Aron rides a fourjoke I e-mailed him the question "why" Also I'll be down at Byron in a week or so I will pull him aside and ask him.
do you know what Gmbh stands for in America?
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In 1998 I went down to the Byron IL. track, to race the nuclear series there. I arrived on thursday morning with a 1997 yz 125- Jeff Willoh,s National Nollean bike, and a 1998 yz250 to get one of those huge nuke trophies and Yz bucks. In the mid to late 90,s that track did very well, along with the pro riders. The pro,s would race in Lake Geneva Wi., friday night supercross, both tracks had contingency,s. Then hang out the Lake G. there,s alot of rich Chicago people there including Oprah. THen sunday race Byron, had races from surrounding states and far away Lake Geneva flew Jimmy Gaddis from Nevada for some rounds. Typical me I go into town Friday night, the Italian bar-restrautrant was cool, but not as cool as the owners daughter. She asked me if I wanted to hit Rockford for a punk rock show sat. night, so all that was fun, not the best for the sunday race results. The track was under water sun. morin, they do a great job, getting the track ready. Ps Jimmy Gaddis was the arenacross champ, on KX125 and KX250, back then.
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My apologies for making such a strong statement G-Money! I to have premix pumping in my veins and I'm quite sure that you know a good running 2-stroke would get just about any size rider around the track plenty fast! Gmbh is basically "A limited liability company"here in America as it is in Germany and Austria such as Maico Gmbh in Germany or Glock Gmbh in Austria. :D
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No apology needed man, We are all frustrated with what the AMA has done to our beloved 2 smokers. Yes you know the official meaning of Gmbh. But around the Benz shop I used to work at we our slang was "GOODS MADE BY HINEES" FART-N-POOPIN seriously they make some good stuff I see why you like Maicos!!!!!