Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: burn1986 on June 15, 2010, 11:39:02 AM
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I posted a couple of weeks ago about Dirt Rider mag pursuing a shootout including a YZ144 and KTM150 against the Big 5 250Fs.
The question now is -
How much modifications should be done on the bikes?
Who should do the work?
Should there be a price cap? If so, how much?
I know we kind of went over this earlier but it is now in the final stage before getting the bikes together.
This is my take on this:
The bikes should remain stock except for exhaust (or no exhaust for that matter). I realize that the KTM150 and YZ144 could be ported with head mods for the price difference between them and the 4 strokes, but I don't think this would set up a fair playing field. I don't think it really matters who works on these bikes if we decide they could be modified.
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Personally I don't think they should be modded. I think it should be a stock to stock test. If you wish to change exhausts, all the bikes should get the same treatment. Try to keep the bikes as a young (cheap) privateer would ride / race them.
just my $.02
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I think all should be stock
only allowing to change jetting, gearing
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Personally, since the KTM is the only "stock" 150 i'd like to see it take on all the other 250F's, no mods. And i'm especially interested in how it does against it's own KTM cousin 250F
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I disagree, I think you should be doing it with race set-up bikes. That stock test has been done, and quite a few times. The end result, the two strokes are fun, but to be competitive you need to race a four stroke. That pretty much sums up the test results I have seen from the mags that have done this test. I think to prove to the general consensus that the two stroke is a viable option, you should be testing set up race bikes, and then have lap times showing how close or how much better the two stroke is. This would make riders and racers consider the two stroke as an option when buying their new bike much more than having read a stock bike test. No one races a bike in standard trim. PLUS, how much better would it be for you to be riding factory prepped race bikes. :P
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I think instead of the typical magazine shootout I would rather see a head to head comparision. Line them up at the gate full mod then lets see what's what. Likes been mentioned. What are we going to find out that we don't already know from the basic shootout.
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Kind of sick of this 4 stroke versus 2 stroke.. I which one day one rider will show up at the National or Supercross and kill all the 4 junk competition so we can all go back to 2 stroke :) Just like Doug Henry did on his 4 poke. I can live without the 4 stroke. We had the Nationals here in the city last week, I didn't go.. I think a super hero on 2 stroke is the real solution to the problem because I don't see the AMA and the manufacturers changing their mind so far.. How bad they would look if somebody show up on a 2 banger and win week after week after week.. Nobody would be able to bullshit..not even the announcers on Speed. Nobody in this 4 stroke corruption business would be able to hide something.. I hope Mike get really good results so project two 50 end up with more support..!!! Best initiative ever!
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Kind of sick of this 4 stroke versus 2 stroke.. I which one day one rider will show up at the National or Supercross and kill all the 4 junk competition so we can all go back to 2 stroke :) Just like Doug Henry did on his 4 poke. I can live without the 4 stroke. We had the Nationals here in the city last week, I didn't go.. I think a super hero on 2 stroke is the real solution to the problem because I don't see the AMA and the manufacturers changing their mind so far.. How bad they would look if somebody show up on a 2 banger and win week after week after week.. Nobody would be able to bullshit..not even the announcers on Speed. Nobody in this 4 stroke corruption business would be able to hide something.. I hope Mike get really good results so project two 50 end up with more support..!!! Best initiative ever!
for sure. yeah the industry has moved on but i'd still like to see some hot shot on a fire breathing smoker break it off in some 4 beast tail pipe.
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I think they should be done in a realistic race set up that a privateer would be able to run... I'd love to do some of the testing too! I'm still looking for a 125 (144/150) for the Pala National ;)
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Well a YZ144 isn't stock to start with so it should get the mods that anybody putting the money into a big bore kit would do and supposedly the KTM comes stock with all the hot stuff so leave it stock
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If it was going to be a magazine test I would want MXA to do the test & I would have to go with enprovenzanos idea & make the bikes all be stock other than maybe a pipe and some jetting,but I also like 2smokers idea too!Who here would'nt like to see a hotshot pro MX racer break out a nice new moded,built to the hilt 2-stroke and do the same thing Doug Henry did back in 1997 on that Yamadawg yzm-400 4-choke?It's been 13+ years since that sickening day & I think it's about time for a little 2-stroke redemption! If there's any pro moto-x racers out there reading this post think about this post and this web site and give it a shot!Let's face it,we all know history is known to repeat itself and I have to say it's about the time to do so...!!! :P >:D GET EVIL ABOUT IT!
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I'm still looking for a 125 (144/150) for the Pala National
It would be cool if you could use the 144/150 at a Pro National, but it's against the rules.
As for comparison tests, there's not really a good way to do it... a stock two-stroke at this point is mostly a 10 year old design. Comparing handi-capped machines brings up the inevitable question of which handi-cap to use?
My personal suggestion is to build "race-ready" machines and then compare. The biggest problem is that even if the test riders are similar in riding ability and style, they may have different preferences. This would completely negate the test altogether.
By the way I really like this test... this is probably the closet to being a "fair" test of the machines.
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/11/125mx-com%E2%80%99s-2009-shootout-tm-vs-yz-vs-ktm/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/11/125mx-com%E2%80%99s-2009-shootout-tm-vs-yz-vs-ktm/)
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Nobody would be able to bullshit..not even the announcers on Speed. Nobody in this 4 stroke corruption business would be able to hide something..
LOL, it'd be "And just look at that little two stroke go!"
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The 144 is legal in pro racing as of last year unless they changed the rules again for 2010 it is 144cc in pro racing and 155cc in amtr.
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The 144 is legal in pro racing as of last year unless they changed the rules again for 2010 it is 144cc in pro racing and 155cc in amtr.
Here is the Pro Motocross Rule, straight from the rulebook.
3.1 Engine Displacements
a. 250 Motocross Class: 0 â?? 125cc 2-Stroke / 150 â?? 250cc 4-stroke
b. 450 Motocross Class: 150 â?? 250cc 2-Stroke / 251 â?? 450cc 4-stroke
As for the AMA Amateur class 250 two-stroke vs. 250 four-stroke is the rule. At least for now.
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The 144 is legal in pro racing as of last year unless they changed the rules again for 2010 it is 144cc in pro racing and 155cc in amtr.
Are you sure of this? I know the AMA rulebook only allowed up to 125cc 2 stroke in the 250F class. If this is changed then this will be a monumental change. I hope you're right, and I would be very interested to hear where you got this info.
As far as the shootout, I initially wanted to see this as stock against stock. But I looked up the prices and there is about $1000 difference between the 4 stroke and 2 stroke. I think it would be reasonable to apply this to the 2 strokes. Here is a cost breakdown:
250Fs-
SXF 7198
KXF 6999
RMZ 6699
YZF 6990
CRF 7199
144s-
SX 6198
YZ125 6585 (6090 plus bore/ porting head mods 495 - Eric Gorr)
According to Pro Circuit, here is the price break down:
Motor - porting and head mods
4 stroke 549.95
2 stroke 329.95
Pipe and Silencer
4 stroke 779.95
2 stroke 349.90
I think we can safely say that the average price difference between a 4 stroke and a 2 stroke is $1000. I think that several people have mentioned that the price difference between the two should be applied to the 2 stroke. It sounds like the consensus would be to have the 2 strokes ported w/head mods and pipe/silencer. This would leave $322 for the KTM and $156 for the YZ. This would be enough for the suspension fo rthe KTM and limited funds for the YZ.
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I kike Watson's idea, but if we mod the smoker, then we have to hear the strokers complain, its not fair, you modded the smoker, then we should get to mod the stroker.
After some thought, what I'd really like to see, it 2 comparrisons.
1st, stock bike with proper jetting, pipe, gearing, basic adj to the suspenders, etc. Basicaly what the weekend amature will be racing / riding. 2nd, lets mod and then compare apples to apples. Yes its costly, but now we get to see the full picture.
Now the other problem... how many riders are comfortable / compentent on the smokers. Most pro riders have not ridden one in quite a while, and have forgotten how to ride the smoker.... so I think it should be more of a long term test, then a one day and done....
just my $.02
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Yep, good point
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I think an even better comparison would be to start off with equal budgets like around $10,000-$12,000 per bike. Buy the bikes, compare them in stock trim. Then, take the leftover money and apply to mods and then compare again. I think with the extra leftover money, the 2 stroke would get more bang for the buck. The outcome could be enough to sway opinions, especially for the privateers.
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I don't remember where I heard about pro racing going to 144. I think I should run the YZ144 at Pala anyway. If by chance I did make it I highly doubt anyone would have me pulled down to check. Everyone would just be stoked on a 125 making a national. Pala is gonna be hard though in all the sand. A 250F eats 125s alive in the sand. As for testing them. You are right there aren't many pros that ride 125s anymore. Lucky for me, we still have my wifes old 05 running strong so I get to ride on as often as I want to. Well as often as she let's me anyway.
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Do the test here in NZ.
We have a 125 only class, so have heaps of riders used to them. :)
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The 144 is legal in pro racing as of last year unless they changed the rules again for 2010 it is 144cc in pro racing and 155cc in amtr.
Here is the Pro Motocross Rule, straight from the rulebook.
3.1 Engine Displacements
a. 250 Motocross Class: 0 â?? 125cc 2-Stroke / 150 â?? 250cc 4-stroke
b. 450 Motocross Class: 150 â?? 250cc 2-Stroke / 251 â?? 450cc 4-stroke
As for the AMA Amateur class 250 two-stroke vs. 250 four-stroke is the rule. At least for now.
when you say at least for now do you think they may reverse the rule potentially?
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when you say at least for now do you think they may reverse the rule potentially?
I sure hope so!!
Do the test here in NZ.
We have a 125 only class, so have heaps of riders used to them. Smiley
TMKIWI - That's a great idea! Would you mind setting it all up, then I'll fly down to write the article!! :P :P :P
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Ill see what i can do ;D
Are you guys alright with drinking 5% beer the night before a test ;)
We could organise it to coincide with the Rugby world cup. But thats a year away.
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would you really get caught for racing a 144 in the pro class?? if anything you would probably get overlooked for racing a 2stroke they wouldnt even care....
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No.... you wouldnt get caught. That was my point. Guaranteed I could run the 144 and no one would ever think twice. I finally got back on my 2-stroke today after 9 months on a 450! Soooooooooo excited!
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I am still waiting to hear back from Jimmy Lewis at Dirt Rider at what kind of budget this shootout will have. But from the responses I have received from this forum and several others, it seems that a stock shootout is what the majority of readers want, and the most fair way to compare the bikes. Then have a modified shootout if the budget permits.
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the problem with a stock shoot out is it has been done already. i cant remember of the top of my head but i remember reading a shoot out betweeen a 144 and 250f not to long ago.
whats needed is a real shootout in a situation that matters with race ready bikes. pick a rider and get two bikes set up with basic susp, motor and pipes. i know its on the pricey side. heck even just basics like pipe and suspension plus any ergos to be closer to what a local would use
i think instead of bringing back the 125 why not we try to push to allow bigger 2 strokes in the 250f/125 class but you would need to make a real world test
why would you show up to a Pro race on a stock ass bike?
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There was one in Australia, but nothing here in the US. The test riders even consisted of a girl and no expert level riders.
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There was one in Australia, but nothing here in the US. The test riders even consisted of a girl and no expert level riders.
Yes, but I found it to be a good test, because something like 5 out of 6 riders came out of that test with 2 to 3 seconds faster lap times on the 144
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I posted the aussie test on here a few months ago somewhere.
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I just want to make sure that I clarify that I will not be riding a 144 in the nationals. I was simply saying that if someone did they probably wouldn't get caught.
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nudge, nudge
wink, wink
;D ;D :P :P
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There was one in Australia, but nothing here in the US. The test riders even consisted of a girl and no expert level riders.
Yes, but I found it to be a good test, because something like 5 out of 6 riders came out of that test with 2 to 3 seconds faster lap times on the 144
Yeah, it was informative. I just wish our stupid magazines would publish a test like this. Of course we know that everyone except Dirt Rider is scared of this.