Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: 2smoker on December 12, 2009, 11:28:45 AM
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Weall know that KTM will produce a KTM 350 four stroke and Mike Alessi will be racing it outdoors next year. What is the idea behind the project? Less weight and better handling? We all know that the 450 are way too much to handle.. I heard also that Honda has a prototype going on also...
Motormeuk.nl - KTM 350 SX-F at EICMA 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn9aFZKyXp4#ws)
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just looking forward to see it as a 125 or 250
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Well, I heard somewhere that it's not at that much of a horsepower disadvantage, but gives a more two-stroke-like powerband than a 450F. More emphasis on top-end, all that.
Myself, I don't like this trend toward smaller and smaller engines. We're seeing a time where guys are complaining that a 250 2T is too wild to handle.. Come on, people, Danny Chandler rode a 250 2T when he was 12! It was an old CZ that was really low to the ground, but he still had to have wooden blocks under his feet on starts so he could touch the ground. What happened that THAT kind of rider? Where are everyone's balls?
As for the bike itself, I think it's my favorite four-stroke. The orange frame with the "we're copying the 1983 Husky" rear section is beautiful. KTM have been making their bikes (in my opinion) uglier and uglier in terms of the color choices on their graphics, but this 350F represents a big step forward for them, aesthetically.
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Well, I heard somewhere that it's not at that much of a horsepower disadvantage, but gives a more two-stroke-like powerband than a 450F. More emphasis on top-end, all that.
Myself, I don't like this trend toward smaller and smaller engines. We're seeing a time where guys are complaining that a 250 2T is too wild to handle.. Come on, people, Danny Chandler rode a 250 2T when he was 12! It was an old CZ that was really low to the ground, but he still had to have wooden blocks under his feet on starts so he could touch the ground. What happened that THAT kind of rider? Where are everyone's balls?
As for the bike itself, I think it's my favorite four-stroke. The orange frame with the "we're copying the 1983 Husky" rear section is beautiful. KTM have been making their bikes (in my opinion) uglier and uglier in terms of the color choices on their graphics, but this 350F represents a big step forward for them, aesthetically.
First of all.. Nowadays tracks are way more technical than the past.. Big bore bikes have a lot of gyro and flywheel effects so at the end pretty much useless!...I think that a 450f is way too much already...Look at the injuries in the past 5-6 years.. It is really scary.. I think it is like a last resort move to prove that four stroke is still cool..I know something for sure....a 250cc 2 stroke will be way more competitive against a 350cc four stroke...Cannot wait to see if Honda will pop up their 350 at the same time.... American Honda need desperately a championship...and yeah the new KTM looks pretty damn good for a 4 bangers..
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KTM 350 SX-F Reveiled: Linkage, Fuel Injection, All-New BIke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI6zDT4hVyg#)
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250s and 125s have been faster for a long time how, even in the '70s. The thing that makes bigger bikes attractive is the fun factor. They're beasts that demand respect. If you get on the beast and respect the beast, you'll have a ball. If you hop onto it the way a lot of these clowns get onto a 450F, with little riding experience and even less common sense, you'll get your ass in a sling.
Also, a 450F comes with a lot of things that make it, in my opinion, more dangerous than a 500. It's heavy as hell, for one thing, and the engine braking makes it easy for a novice to jump into the air and land on his neck. Notice that no one even thought of the Leatt brace in the age of the 500, but it suddenly became a must-have item in the age of the 450F. They're big and capable machines, but what makes them dangerous is the fear factor. They don't have it. When you get on a 500, you can ride it about and have a good time, but then when you go to screw it on, it'll scare you so bad that you'll treat it with kid gloves until you progress to a level where you can use the craziness. A 450F just says, "Hi kids, I'm cocai... I mean, I'm a dirt bike! Let's go fast!"
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Well, I heard somewhere that it's not at that much of a horsepower disadvantage, but gives a more two-stroke-like powerband than a 450F. More emphasis on top-end, all that.
Myself, I don't like this trend toward smaller and smaller engines. We're seeing a time where guys are complaining that a 250 2T is too wild to handle.. Come on, people, Danny Chandler rode a 250 2T when he was 12! It was an old CZ that was really low to the ground, but he still had to have wooden blocks under his feet on starts so he could touch the ground. What happened that THAT kind of rider? Where are everyone's balls?
As for the bike itself, I think it's my favorite four-stroke. The orange frame with the "we're copying the 1983 Husky" rear section is beautiful. KTM have been making their bikes (in my opinion) uglier and uglier in terms of the color choices on their graphics, but this 350F represents a big step forward for them, aesthetically.
First of all.. Nowadays tracks are way more technical than the past.. Big bore bikes have a lot of gyro and flywheel effects so at the end pretty much useless!...I think that a 450f is way too much already...Look at the injuries in the past 5-6 years.. It is really scary.. I think it is like a last resort move to prove that four stroke is still cool..I know something for sure....a 250cc 2 stroke will be way more competitive against a 350cc four stroke...Cannot wait to see if Honda will pop up their 350 at the same time.... American Honda need desperately a championship...and yeah the new KTM looks pretty damn good for a 4 bangers..
Are you kidding? I don't think that a 250 two stroke will be more competitive now that the 450 has lost 100cc's, I mean look at the trend, riders are getting faster lap times on smaller bore bikes, i think this 350 would more harm the two strokes existence
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Conspiration-hats on!
Smaller engine=more wear and tear=more parts shipping out
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Well hold on a second. If we're going to say that the 350F will do better against the 250 2T than a 450F because it's smaller... wouldn't it be suicide to put a 250 against a 250F? Obviously, the 250F does not destroy the 250, but the 450F does (usually). Seems to me, therefore, that the 350F is either going to be slower than a 450F, or there is some magical point at which a 4T starts getting slower, which happens to be between 250 and 450. I think KTM is banking on the latter.
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Just another gimmick from a company that says one thing and does another. :-[ ;) ::)
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Conspiration-hats on!
Smaller engine=more wear and tear=more parts shipping out
hahaha Yeah you right! More rev more tear.. Ktm is a funny company...Yeah we like the two stroke but we also like developing new 4 stroke? WTF.......Blame The AMA and FIM rules again.....WHat do I need to do to be a member of their stupid board?
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Conspiration-hats on!
Smaller engine=more wear and tear=more parts shipping out
hahaha Yeah you right! More rev more tear.. Ktm is a funny company...Yeah we like the two stroke but we also like developing new 4 stroke? WTF.......Blame The AMA and FIM rules again.....WHat do I need to do to be a member of their stupid board?
You want to be on the AMA board?? Go to work for a japanese manufacturer, or lose all your ethics and morals and join the AMA.
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well look at how expensiva a 250f is to race, we don't need more expensive machines out there, I would rather see 450's out there than 350's
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I'd like to see the 500s come back and watch the Big Four scramble to make 850Fs. That would make for some excellent entertainment.
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I'd like to see the 500s come back and watch the Big Four scramble to make 850Fs. That would make for some excellent entertainment.
haha LMAO yeah I bet they would to - they seem as desperate to see 2 strokes fail as we are to make them succeed
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Hahahahaha, I really had a nice time reading this thread.
I think, like many others, that the main attractive of the 500 class is that those monsters were hard to ride fast, and only a couple of talented rider could use them to their potential. But they dropped the classs and leave the 250, that need also some skills to get them on the pipe all race long. But they came with an easier to ride bike, the 450 4S. And here is the point that put a couple of nails in the 2 stroke coffin, this bikes are faster, but easier to ride, even someone without that much skills can ride one to a pretty fast pace. And thats why the crash rating grew, because people that doesen't have the skills where riding this open class bikes like if they where racing a cadillac el dorado rather than a racing machine.
So now thw 450 is still too much, so go to 350. Maybe this will be a little harder to ride, cause you have to ride them on the edge to fight the 450 on their ground.
I think that this move would make more money on maintenance and replacement parts, but also on aftermarket parts, cause if you cant use all the potentiall of a 450 there is no reason to put a hot cam and a full exhaust on it, but to be competitive on a 250, were you will squeeze every hp on the engine, you'll need every part and preparation you could afford to bet the guy next to you.
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I'm a 2t fan and always will be! At 39yrs. of age I'm more than happy with my "08" KTM 300xc & maybe this is wishful thinking or just pre "old timers disease" but I believe there's a method to KTM's madness in making a 350 4t especially when there has been a lot of talk of a feul injected 2t KTM coming out in the near future.Maybe KTM's thinking by bringing out a 350cc 4t moto-x bike that the Japanese manufacturers will follow suit & WHEN THE SX & MX tracks are filled with a bunch of lighter,easier to handle 350 4 strokes then KTM will finally bring out a feul injected 250 2t and if the powers that be don't screw with the rules or break their own rules like the AMA has done in the past then we will finally get to see our beloved 2 strokes back in main stream MX & SX racing kicking a$$ and taking names as we all know they could against a 350cc 4-smoke!
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not to scare anyone, but in 2008 when MotoGP went from 990cc to 800cc, the rules were changed to BAN 2 strokes outright. That's right, they outlawed them! They knew the 990's were too powerful fot the 500's, but i guess they were afraid some privateer team might dust off an NSR500 and smoke the 800's. In motocross, a move to 350cc 4 strokes could perhaps spell the end of 250cc 2 strokes. Clearly the AMA has an agenda which doesn't include privateers, so i could definitely see some type of legislation that ensures a 250 2 stroke has no chance to race against a 350 4T. That would only happen through a ban. A 350cc rule could be real bad for the future of 250 2 strokes.
If i remember correctly in 2002 or 2003 Dirtrider magazine had their "10 Best" awards, and tongue-in-cheek awarded the YZ426F Best Workout Bike because it "gave the rider such a workout trying to keep up with the 2 strokes". So i'm thinking a bike only 100cc more than a 250 2T would have a VERY difficult time winning.
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I've told this story many times before, but it was an epic day when our band of vintage 2T riders invited a YZ426F rider to join us. Kyle took his beloved new bike up to the front of the pack to tangle with the '81 Husky 430, and the poor guy had his cheeks handed to him on the straights, and didn't gain an inch in the turns. Then he tried messing with the '86 Maico 500. He kept going faster and faster, and the Maico just stayed with him. Eventually, the Maico rider (my dad) decided to screw it on all the way, then hit the brakes at the last possible moment before the turn. Into the forest goes the YZF, while the Maico goes onto play some pinball with the turns. Left. For. Dead. Okay, so he didn't die, but he did develop a nice level of respect for the big oldies. So did his friend on the KDX200 as he raced with some fat 12-year-old kid on a '67 Kawasaki. :D
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honesly i don't think of it at all. ;D Now if it were a 350 2t! ;)
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Kudos to KTM and Yamaha and anyone else for not forsaking the 2t altogether-and KTM continues to develop them.They need a fourstroke,and a good one,with things being what they are these days but give credit where due imo.
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First of all.. Nowadays tracks are way more technical than the past..
You need to take a look at some of the mid-early 90's sx races. The tracks today have ramps not jumps the tracks today have rolling braking bumps not pizza slice, do or die, cant roll them cause you would high center WHOOPS!
I remember going to sx in the early 90's and you would be hard pressed to crawl up a jump much less walk up it. This change happened in the early 2000's because a certain up and comer couldn't time a jump to save his life but he can twist the trottle just fine, until he hits the ground. The ama wants their to be a "super star" to do to the sport what McGrath did.
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First of all.. Nowadays tracks are way more technical than the past..
You need to take a look at some of the mid-early 90's sx races. The tracks today have ramps not jumps the tracks today have rolling braking bumps not pizza slice, do or die, cant roll them cause you would high center WHOOPS!
I remember going to sx in the early 90's and you would be hard pressed to crawl up a jump much less walk up it. This change happened in the early 2000's because a certain up and comer couldn't time a jump to save his life but he can twist the trottle just fine, until he hits the ground. The ama wants their to be a "super star" to do to the sport what McGrath did.
the best SX track last year IMO was the one LaRocco designed. straight out of the '90's it had no spots to rest and cruise. it was so busy that the 250F guys were visibly winded when pulling off after the race.