Post by: SachsGS on July 21, 2013, 05:22:57 PM
What I can't get over is that these electric motorcycles sound identical to my son's electric ATV that he had from ages 2 to 5.
Post by: _X_ on July 21, 2013, 09:06:55 PM
Post by: factoryX on July 22, 2013, 01:45:55 AM
Post by: citabjockey on July 22, 2013, 05:38:51 AM
If not then the capability of this scooter in THIS APPLICATION (muddy 40 minute event) cannot be denied. Even if you say its unfair he doesn't even have to push a button at the start. Heck, when I try to boot over my 380 while everyone else uses there magic button I don't whine about it.
Now, as to reality. Yes the bike kicked butt (maybe because it was a pro versus 'c' riders -- I remain skeptical) but its very expensive and will only let you go 40 minutes. Not all day on 70 mile loop trail rides. How many cycles before the bike-priced battery is trash? How robust are the components in the drive -- electric and otherwise?
And how much fun is it really to ride? I gotta say I love my two stroke but I also love to ride -- perhaps even to the point where I could have fun on an e-bike -- even if not as much as on my 380.
But we should expect videos and results (like the pikes peek race e-bike win) to keep popping up as the technology and engineering advance. Its just the way it is.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 22, 2013, 09:31:41 AM
Post by: _X_ on July 22, 2013, 10:14:53 AM
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 22, 2013, 10:49:05 AM
hello welcome to wallmart. scooters to your right my man.
Meet you there? We'll set up a course and see if we can pull off 2 45 minute motos? Extra points for kills of course...
Post by: rlaj1004 on July 22, 2013, 02:05:18 PM
hello welcome to wallmart. scooters to your right my man.
Meet you there? We'll set up a course and see if we can pull off 2 45 minute motos? Extra points for kills of course...
Oh I'm in, and there is enough giantly fat people at my walmart, we could use them as berms.
But that would be the only place I ever put my ass on an E bike, just doesn't seem like riding.
Post by: SachsGS on July 22, 2013, 04:13:36 PM
I agree that the Zero rider was probably just cherry picking. While all the "C's" were waiting for bottle necks he just rode around them.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 22, 2013, 05:33:33 PM
Post by: citabjockey on July 22, 2013, 05:50:31 PM
Which leads me to my next question - how well was that Zero finding traction?
Post by: SachsGS on July 23, 2013, 03:52:43 PM
Post by: citabjockey on July 23, 2013, 05:07:45 PM
They also say a charge costs less than a buck. So lets say you believe them and get 100 miles per charge. Lets do a little math:
My 380 goes through a couple of gallons in 60 miles. Roughly 30MPG so will chew about 3 gallons in that 100 miles, USA prices, 12 bucks.
Zero says the battery will last 3000 hours. I *might* be able to make a 20 MPH average on a typical trail ride so 3000 hours gets 60,000 miles.
so 600 tanks of gas, which is about $7200 bucks in gas compared to about $600 in electric charges. Of course in that 3000 hours there will
be at least a few top end changes on the 380 at about $500 apiece, maybe a couple of bottom end rebuilds too at $800 each which bumps the cost of the 380 for those 3000 hours up to $7200 + ($500 * 10) + ($800 * 3) or about $14k. At this point we could neglect my purchase price of the 380 (which was about 2k). The zero seems to come out the winner in terms of long term cost but you have to finance a big up front capital spend (or borrow) to get into one. Of course this analysis neglects all the running gear maint which should be similar between the two bikes.
Now if you compare that $12k zero against a current 450F at $9k then the costs over time look even worse for gas engines.
All of the above hinges on believing you can get 3000 hours out of a battery pack, you only want to ride 100 miles without waiting for a recharge, you are ok with a 265 lb curb weight, and that the other drive electronics/motors/gears on the zero doesn't break. If you have to swap inverters and motors on a regular basis then the equation could change quite a bit. Oh and as that battery approaches the 3000 hour lifespan I would expect you cannot get anywhere near 100 miles out of it anymore. Oh and the zero legs are only good for 9 or so inches of travel. I am kinda used to 13 on the back of my 380! This could be how Zero got the weight below 300 lbs?
Info. from the Zero site - 54 hp/70 ft lbs torque, 112 mile range (under "normal" conditions) and 60 second battery change.
Post by: factoryX on July 23, 2013, 08:41:19 PM
Post by: citabjockey on July 23, 2013, 08:58:15 PM
And the 60 seconds is a battery swap (change) not charge. For that little feature you have to buy a 2nd battery pack.
Oh and then if you go this route you have to picture on a bike weekend you will not have a electric source. So you use your generator. Given that the charger-battery-motor energy path is not much better than 50% efficient the miles per generator gallon on this bike would be pretty bad. probably worse than my 380 when stuffing charge into the battery with a generator. Plus you would have to listen to the darn thing even if you weren't watching your 50" TV at the campsite.
60 second battery charge is incredibly damaging to a battery, and if its a lithium polymer battery even more so. 60,000 miles on a dirt bike?
Post by: Stusmoke on July 23, 2013, 11:14:14 PM
Post by: LukeG on July 24, 2013, 12:27:00 AM
Post by: factoryX on July 24, 2013, 05:19:12 AM
Post by: LukeG on July 24, 2013, 06:16:32 AM
Post by: citabjockey on July 24, 2013, 02:27:03 PM
, OMG!It clearly has enough beans to clear triples.
But it weighs too much, costs too much (re purchase), and only has 9" of travel. Not a real MX bike yet -- despite the model being named "MX".
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 24, 2013, 04:46:48 PM
Zero states 50+ Hp (which is good to go for any mere mortals like us) and 70 fl-lbs of torque
It clearly has enough beans to clear triples.
But it weighs too much, costs too much (re purchase), and only has 9" of travel. Not a real MX bike yet -- despite the model being named "MX".
I could be wrong...but according to the "special" showing Jay Leno's Zero, the you tube infomercial from Australia comparing it to 125's, and my own checking it out for possible "someday" purchase...it is lighter than a 125. It is about $10k (all prices here are US) but also had Bush's $4k tax break - that because (like all Bush plans) was not thought out well and allowed all the dealers to cash in on all the bikes delivered and then sell the Zero at less than $6k.
Here is the problem (currently) though...Although a new battery would last a moto, it takes 6 hours to charge to you'd need minimum 2 batteries (which does not include practice or other qualifying sessions). Each additional battery is/was when I checked $2.5k...and like all these battery powered toys, the batteries lose efficiency over time so you'll be replacing them often.
Having gone down the competitive remote control car road, I can compare what it takes to run these things. I was in a competitive group, but by no means national caliber. We would use 1 new motor for every main event. It would then be relegated to a qualifying motor. We would then use it for 3 events qualifying and relegate it to a practice motor. If I remember right, a motor was about $50. Batteries were pretty much on the same schedule except that they were only used for a single qualifying event. we assembled our own batteries from cells but I think you could buy completed for $50.
Without advancement in battery technology or a drastic fall in prices, and correlating it to my RC car experience - my estimate for a season was $6 for the bike and an additional $15k for the batteries. And that is conservative hoping the motors are repairable/replaceable under warranty. Think about your equivalent fuel costs and see if it compares.
Post by: citabjockey on July 24, 2013, 05:04:56 PM
So in your RC car experience, what was degrading in those motors to cause you to swap them out so often?
Post by: lauterbacher on July 24, 2013, 07:50:00 PM
acing turbines not on the small scale which has done. But on the the large scale. Big and heavy jets.
There issue is not the motors at all now, It's the ESC's that do the switching of the current from the battery to the motor giving it a smooth spool up. And they have a lot of issues with the high end units which would translate to the motorcycle and if there is jamming or to much bogging those current spikes big time and fries the controller. Those babies cost and I would be interested in knowing how much the controller on that Bike costs to replace besides the battery which has it's limiting virtues and there is not much on the horizon for replacing the lipo batterys and making the next big jump.
Post by: factoryX on July 24, 2013, 09:25:48 PM
Post by: rlaj1004 on July 24, 2013, 10:01:05 PM
[/quote]
I but also had Bush's $4k tax break - that because (like all Bush plans) was not thought out well and allowed all the dealers to cash in on all the bikes delivered and then sell the Zero at less than $6k.
[/quote]
Hahahaha, say it isn't so, a politicians plan that was not thought out well. I could add a few to that from the buffoon that's making plans now.
Washington DC needs an enema
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 25, 2013, 09:15:33 AM
I was just at the Zero site brushing up (pun intended) and batteries are still $2.5k+. Althought the bike is priced at $9, this years incentives (tax break) are only 10% up to $2.5k. There is another incentive in play for 30% refund on charging equipment (which iis $600+ for the Zero and requires a seperate connector - not included.). Also charging up to 95% can be done in 1 hour. Guess you still need that second (and maybe third) battery if you go to the races. I guess Bush was a little 'greener' than Obama (pun intended)...
I didn't find parts information for the Zero. I did for the Oset however. Motors are less that $150 (biggest 750w) and controllers are $50. Also amazingly is that every part to include the wiring harness and frames are available for sale. The Oset doesn't use fancy plastic powerpacks. They use $42 12 batteries in series and have a canvas/nylon bag that mounts in the frame. Gas Gas and Beta electric bikes are much the same. Now Oset has the 2.0 - an 20" trials bike for bigger kids. That is the size of your standard BMX bike. That sounds just right for me!
Post by: factoryX on July 25, 2013, 09:42:12 AM
They use $42 12 batteries in series and have a canvas/nylon bag that mounts in the frame. Gas Gas and Beta electric bikes are much the same.
Insert weight figure...
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 25, 2013, 10:59:47 AM
Yes, there are heavier batteries. They are the same ones used in your kids plastic ride on toys. The little Oset 12.5 is like 48 lbs total. Almost double that for the 20.0. I'm sure the Zero's batteries are lighter. They better be for $2500.