Post by: eprovenzano on July 14, 2013, 05:34:31 PM
With constant travel, testing, planning etc , I'm sure you're exhausted. I bet you'd like to hold up somewhere and sleep for 24 hours just to give your brain a break from the stress and thoughts about the team... You're doing a great job. It's tough, it's hard, and when you have a CC disadvantage, it's just makes success that much sweeter.
Keep up the awesome work, we're behind you.
Post by: brazilian2stroker on July 14, 2013, 05:44:30 PM
Post by: citabjockey on July 14, 2013, 05:47:00 PM
Post by: Charles Owens on July 14, 2013, 06:52:25 PM
Yes a vacation is much needed right now. We are getting the bikes where they need to be, heading to Canada this weekend to support Lorenz up there for 3 rounds. LaPorte will be running Millville for us, then we will all be back together for Unadilla(Robby included).
I am glad we ran the rounds this year to work out the kinks and get our feet wet before we take on a full season next year. We're making this happen, no matter what comes at us.
Right before RedBud we bought a dually, it broke down numerous times on the way there and the way back. After a $1k tow and a $5k repair bill it will be ready in the next day or two.
We also placed an order with KTM for $5k to get the motors all back to stock for PC to make it happen. New cranks, cylinders, heads, carbs, etc. And that price was all at cost. :/
Our motors are about to head out west to get some Pro Circuit massaging.
For those that have asked the cost of running a pro team.. We are well over $100k just for the half season so far.
Tough times, but it makes me want it that much more. Things are looking great for '14!
Post by: _X_ on July 14, 2013, 08:54:44 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on July 14, 2013, 10:49:43 PM
Hey guys, the last few weeks have been rough and VERY expensive. But all of the issues are resolved and we are finishing strong and preparing for 2014.
Yes a vacation is much needed right now. We are getting the bikes where they need to be, heading to Canada this weekend to support Lorenz up there for 3 rounds. LaPorte will be running Millville for us, then we will all be back together for Unadilla(Robby included).
I am glad we ran the rounds this year to work out the kinks and get our feet wet before we take on a full season next year. We're making this happen, no matter what comes at us.
Right before RedBud we bought a dually, it broke down numerous times on the way there and the way back. After a $1k tow and a $5k repair bill it will be ready in the next day or two.
We also placed an order with KTM for $5k to get the motors all back to stock for PC to make it happen. New cranks, cylinders, heads, carbs, etc. And that price was all at cost. :/
Our motors are about to head out west to get some Pro Circuit massaging.
For those that have asked the cost of running a pro team.. We are well over $100k just for the half season so far.
Tough times, but it makes me want it that much more. Things are looking great for '14!
First off: What everyone else says, you're a hero.
Secondly: Holy crap @ 100k for a half season? And thats a privateers bill for a two stroke. Any guess for a high end, non factory 250F team bill?
Thirdly: Us 250sx owners would appreciate knowing the areas you attacked. When you get a second or too, no rush cos I don't have enough money anyway
Post by: mj4trax on July 15, 2013, 04:26:36 PM
I have given a bit of $$ here and there and bought the Spazztic team shirts, but kinda wondering if there is another way to help support the team... in other words, what can the TSM community to to help the team?
100K for a half season is an awful lot of scratch. Is there a business plan to eventually make $$ or be paid back from this effort? Just wondering how that actually works.... I can't imagine Charles can afford to hemmorage $$ like this on a continual basis, so I'm a little curious how the team is going to survive going forward.
Best of luck in Canada, at Millville and looking forward to seeing the team back in force at Unadilla!
Post by: Charles Owens on July 15, 2013, 06:24:15 PM
We are currently set to run all 12 Outdoor rounds next year, as well as select SX events.
About 50% of the cost this year was associated with transport (Trucks/Haulers). As our assets grow costs will go down.
We started mid season so most of the sponsors budgets had already been allocated, the majority will be back on for next year as well as several new ones. That will be a huge help with expenses.
After the 2 Stroke Shootout in September we are selling the hauler and getting a 45' toter
Something like this one, with a TSM wrap of course
Post by: eprovenzano on July 15, 2013, 06:58:38 PM
Now that sponsors have seen 1st hand the response the team receives at the races, lets hope the existing plus new sponsors will be on board for 2014. Charles I'd like to think it should be easier to get new and keep existing sponsors now that they seen the team in action and the positive reaction to the team. Let's hope they beat down your door with offers, or at the very least will now return phone calls and / or emails when you contact them about 2014.
Remember we are all behind you...
Post by: JohnN on July 15, 2013, 11:54:32 PM
I see many members desire to get more information about what it actually takes to race at the national level. The costs of racing are enormous and strangely a 100K investment (in racing anyway) is a low budget effort!!
I'd like to be a bit forward and ask you some questions, which I hope will be interesting to the readers and hopefully not take up too much of your time. Because I'm sure that all of us would prefer you spend your precious time on the race effort first.
Here go the questions. Some of them might seem dumb on the surface, hopefully your answers will make them seem a bit more "intelligent".
1 - What does sign up cost for each racer? Pit Crew? Family?
2 - How is parking assigned for different teams (such as TSM)? (Obviously a spot on the far back side of the pits would be challenging to putting your effort in front of the public)
3 - What exactly does a racer need to do to actually qualify for the National itself?
4 - How do they divide the different qualifying sessions? (ex. Do they mix top level pros with TSM racers?)
5 - What are the track conditions like when the racers go out to qualify?
6 - How many racers are in each qualifying session?
7 - How are the racers let out onto the track for qualifying? How do they decide who gets out onto the track first?
8 - How long (in laps) are the qualifying sessions?
9 - When at the track, how do you find out your qualifying lap times?
10 - When you find out what your times were and discover that you didn't qualify, what is the procedure for getting ready for the LCQ?
I don't want to make this too long, like I said before focus on the racing first. But when you get some time would you mind answering these questions?
Thank you!
John
Post by: ford832 on July 16, 2013, 01:54:21 AM
Good on you Charles for all your efforts.
Good to hear from you also John-what have you been up to?
Post by: Charles Owens on July 16, 2013, 04:42:44 PM
Sign up is $220 per rider, per event. Plus $50 per mechanic and guest.
Unless you're there for press day, they park 'rigs' at 9am(ish) and privateers at 9:30ish Friday mornings. We try to get to privateer staging early (Thursday Night)to get parked first(for the best spot available after the rigs)
To qualify, they simply need to haul ass for a solid lap. All the riders I have talked to hate the current qualifying format. Unless you have points, you practice in the 'B' group which goes out first on the horrible over watered track. The problem is, most guys hit a solid lap and roll (get in the way of other riders trying to hit a hot one).
Typically 40 per session, but usually they will overload the B practice with the left over entries. (like it needs to be harder on these guys)
They stagger start them for practice, for the best shot they try to get to practice staging 15 mins or so early to try and avoid the clusterF.
They do 2 practice sessions, 15 mins each. The first 5 mins of the first practice is not timed, the final 10 are. All 15 mins of practice 2 is timed.
We find out timing from the screens or live timing from the computer in our hauler.
LCQ prep is intense, each rider has their own method for getting mentally prepped. These are the races they should show on TV.. Brutal
There is about an hour between practices and about 1:30 between 2nd practice and LCQ. Its not bad prepping one bike, but 2 or 3 in the allotted time is a challenge.
It has been the biggest emotional roller coaster, but I wouldn't change a thing. Great learning experiences, and we have made some great industry contacts.
One thing I thought was interesting.. Everyone always says the AMA would hate this effort and make it difficult.. Not at all. They love what we are doing. The AMA techs actually think its BS we can't run 300's. They all support what we're doing. MX Sports on the other hand.. not so much.
Post by: mj4trax on July 16, 2013, 04:55:08 PM
So, when you are successful at generating points for a rider, that rider will be able to practice/qualify with that 'A' group. (also means that Marshal will qualify with the 'A' group for Unadilla since I know he got points at Southwick) Very cool.
I think the post above is a nice preview of the upcoming "behind the scenes" article we've been promised.
Post by: Charles Owens on July 16, 2013, 05:37:53 PM
And yes the real inside the outdoors article is shaping up to be very informative.
Thanks guys!
Post by: Charles Owens on July 16, 2013, 06:10:18 PM
Fuel, race fuel for the bikes (several hundred for the weekend) truck, generator, etc. also several hundred per weekend.
Tires.. We get them from Dunlop for $60 each (mounted at the track) even with that discount, it adds up quick when you have triplets.
I would say the average weekend costs us $3-5k depending on location and number of rider entries/mechanics/guests.
The RedBud trip was insane. We bought the dually strictly to run RedBud and Unadilla then we were going to sell it.
RedBud total cost:
Truck: $12k
It broke down on the way there, temp fix to get it there $300.
It died again at the entry gate :/ Friday morning we had it taken to a local dealer there to get a fuel leak fixed. $250
On the way home it lost the head gaskets $5k repair $1k tow.
Fuel, tires, clutches, entry fees, passes, misc $2k
We also had to have my girl drive the other F350 from VA to Ohio so we could haul the trailer back.
As soon as we got home we contacted KTM and ordered the $5k in engine parts to get the bikes right.
We are doing a fresh look for Unadilla. All white with orange chrome graphics. They will be sweet.
Post by: _X_ on July 16, 2013, 10:13:25 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on July 16, 2013, 11:28:38 PM
Worse than buying a second hand 250F 
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 17, 2013, 10:35:17 AM
Very interesting about the tires. Well, it is all very interesting but that little tidbit it something. What made you choose Dunlop? Weight? Cost? Support? Rider preference? I would think you could run something else and maybe get paid for it.
Post by: eprovenzano on July 17, 2013, 01:00:20 PM
). Its just inquiring minds want to know.. Keep up the good work, get some rest and give em hell...
Post by: Charles Owens on July 17, 2013, 02:00:19 PM
Post by: mxracer239 on July 17, 2013, 02:50:50 PM
Post by: Charles Owens on July 17, 2013, 02:55:12 PM
Our rep got us the new motors at cost, they want our proposal for next year asap. Hopefully they can step up and help us out next year.
The 14's will be homologated soon
Post by: eprovenzano on July 17, 2013, 03:12:20 PM
I know, I know they need your proposed requirements for 2014 so they can get the data incorporated into their budget requests for 2014. I'm a corporate accountant so I know 1st hand the accumulation, build up and budget proposals... But damn Charles, there goes what little sleep you were getting, oh and the little naps you were taking while traveling, you can forget those too. Time to fire up the laptop and complete the required spreadsheets... but seriously If there is anything we (TSM members) can help you with please let us know.
Post by: Stusmoke on July 17, 2013, 09:28:48 PM
I wonder what KTM would think of a proposal like that... On the one hand, they get to stand behind their two strokes. On the other, their two strokes don't win which could make them look bad, although anyone expecting them to win against teams like PC/ME/Kawasaki are dreaming, no offense Charles. On the third hand, yes this is a metaphorical alien body, it might give equal displacement some more ammunition. On the other hand to the metaphorical hand, they might not want that. Atleast, not yet.
Post by: scotty dog on July 17, 2013, 10:24:46 PM
Post by: JohnN on July 25, 2013, 01:33:44 AM
Thanks for answering my questions. Unfortunately I don't get to visit the site as often as I'd like to.
No one really knows how much of an effort it takes to race at this level, unless they've been there. You are doing an amazing job!
The factory efforts have a contingent of people each performing only certain details, in your case, you get to wear all the hats. It's a very tough job.
I for one deeply appreciate all you have done. Thank you!
Post by: brazilian2stroker on July 25, 2013, 12:18:36 PM
On the phone to the KTM USA president eh? Sounds pretty sweet. Perhaps theres some factory backing in your future! Oh how I wish...
I wonder what KTM would think of a proposal like that... On the one hand, they get to stand behind their two strokes. On the other, their two strokes don't win which could make them look bad, although anyone expecting them to win against teams like PC/ME/Kawasaki are dreaming, no offense Charles. On the third hand, yes this is a metaphorical alien body, it might give equal displacement some more ammunition. On the other hand to the metaphorical hand, they might not want that. Atleast, not yet.
Thatīs exactly my opinion. KTM is getting a considerable profit from two strokes, an official support for a serious 2 stroke team seems to be an acttractive chance to multiply them even more. Itīs a good idea that they possible havenīt considered yet. Roczenīs sucess riding a 125 last year in the last race (word championship) is a very good argument.
Post by: Stusmoke on July 25, 2013, 09:30:00 PM
Post by: citabjockey on July 26, 2013, 02:42:02 PM
So a rider that wants to by a Japanese brand but sees how well a KTM250SX is doing outdoors might be tempted if they realized how much less they would be spending over a couple of seasons to race one at the local level instead of a 250F/450F.
Or am I just over thinking this? KTM may just want to support any professional organization that puts out a strong organized effort on their hardware?
On the phone to the KTM USA president eh? Sounds pretty sweet. Perhaps theres some factory backing in your future! Oh how I wish...
I wonder what KTM would think of a proposal like that... On the one hand, they get to stand behind their two strokes. On the other, their two strokes don't win which could make them look bad, although anyone expecting them to win against teams like PC/ME/Kawasaki are dreaming, no offense Charles. On the third hand, yes this is a metaphorical alien body, it might give equal displacement some more ammunition. On the other hand to the metaphorical hand, they might not want that. Atleast, not yet.
Thatīs exactly my opinion. KTM is getting a considerable profit from two strokes, an official support for a serious 2 stroke team seems to be an acttractive chance to multiply them even more. Itīs a good idea that they possible havenīt considered yet. Roczenīs sucess riding a 125 last year in the last race (word championship) is a very good argument.
Post by: Shawn36 on July 26, 2013, 05:17:09 PM
A KTM 250 sale is most likely a KTM 450F loss. So, does KTM corporate want that? Not clear to me which bike sale nets them more money. That said one would think the KTM service folks net more from the 450F bike being out in the wild then a 250. KTM has to play this card carefully. How can they present support such that a KTM250 sale takes a sale away from another manufacturer? Seems like that would be the real incentive.
So a rider that wants to by a Japanese brand but sees how well a KTM250SX is doing outdoors might be tempted if they realized how much less they would be spending over a couple of seasons to race one at the local level instead of a 250F/450F.
Or am I just over thinking this? KTM may just want to support any professional organization that puts out a strong organized effort on their hardware?
There is not even the slightest doubt that KTM makes more money from 4-strokes than 2 just by sheer volume. Just like Yamaha they manufacture just a handful of 2-strokes. MXA put out numbers for 2013 that KTM produced a total of 54,000 off-road motorcycles. Of that 12,000 were 2-strokes, and a large portion of those were mini bikes. I don't think KTM really views 2-strokes as a threat to their income from 450s whether it be from initial purchase or long term parts use. They know what the market will bear and do what they need to keep demand high. Yamaha makes and imports just a few thousand YZ 250 units per year so they can keep the price high.
Post by: Stusmoke on July 27, 2013, 07:52:39 AM
A KTM 250 sale is most likely a KTM 450F loss. So, does KTM corporate want that? Not clear to me which bike sale nets them more money. That said one would think the KTM service folks net more from the 450F bike being out in the wild then a 250. KTM has to play this card carefully. How can they present support such that a KTM250 sale takes a sale away from another manufacturer? Seems like that would be the real incentive.
So a rider that wants to by a Japanese brand but sees how well a KTM250SX is doing outdoors might be tempted if they realized how much less they would be spending over a couple of seasons to race one at the local level instead of a 250F/450F.
Or am I just over thinking this? KTM may just want to support any professional organization that puts out a strong organized effort on their hardware?
There is not even the slightest doubt that KTM makes more money from 4-strokes than 2 just by sheer volume. Just like Yamaha they manufacture just a handful of 2-strokes. MXA put out numbers for 2013 that KTM produced a total of 54,000 off-road motorcycles. Of that 12,000 were 2-strokes, and a large portion of those were mini bikes. I don't think KTM really views 2-strokes as a threat to their income from 450s whether it be from initial purchase or long term parts use. They know what the market will bear and do what they need to keep demand high. Yamaha makes and imports just a few thousand YZ 250 units per year so they can keep the price high.
Assuming those sales figures are accurate which sounds questionable, Theres your answer. Although I heard something that made me chuckle on the starting gate today. Guy next to me was talking up his 250 that hes using for hte time being cos his 250F exploded. He says to the guy on my other next to me, yeah I might not even rebuild my 250F eh, this things wicked
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 28, 2013, 09:25:17 AM
Post by: Stusmoke on July 28, 2013, 09:54:48 AM
Yamaha and the rest raised their prices of 2-strokes so as to not steal sales from the awesome 4-strokes that they all spend so much money promoting.
A rather clever business tactic that really does hit two birds with one stone. First, it will remove one factor from someones new bike decision: Which is cheaper from the get go? Well atleast it will severely diminish it. I don't know what are the RRPs of a YZ250, YZ250F and YZ450F? And secondly they get some extra bucks from the die hards that for some reason are willing to cough it up for a company that puts every cent earned into the hardcore, lightspeed R&D of Yamahas BNG department. Oh and the leftover from the $100 spent on next years models' extensive R&D goes to four strokes. But atleast they still produce them. And a used YZ is a fantastic way to get into the sport. Were Yamaha to announce: No YZ two strokes starting 2015, I would imagine the price of used YZs would skyrocket. Yamaha should say that just to see what would happen, I'd like to know.
Post by: eprovenzano on August 11, 2013, 02:12:50 PM
Charles now maybe you can get some well deserved rest before diving into the prep plans for 2014...
Post by: mj4trax on August 11, 2013, 02:38:21 PM
AWESOME job Charles and job well done to you and the rest of the TSM crew...
Charles now maybe you can get some well deserved rest before diving into the prep plans for 2014...
x2
Post by: twosmoke595 on August 11, 2013, 05:21:16 PM
stay tuned bc there will be some BIG stuff happening
Post by: eprovenzano on August 11, 2013, 06:09:26 PM
lol fat chance, charles is getting ready for his debut at the sleepy hollow 2 stroke shootout
stay tuned bc there will be some BIG stuff happening
OK then... let just hope he'll be sporting some TSM gear, and flying the TSM banner proudly.
Post by: _X_ on August 11, 2013, 09:40:28 PM
lol fat chance, charles is getting ready for his debut at the sleepy hollow 2 stroke shootoutyeah like signing rattray.
stay tuned bc there will be some BIG stuff happening
Post by: citabjockey on August 11, 2013, 10:40:21 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on August 12, 2013, 05:22:51 AM
How about signing Bubba?
This might have been intended as a joke, but it might not be come contract renewal time. Bubba has delivered nothing but disappointment to his Rockstar Energy/Suzuki team. They must be kicking themselves for signing him. Add to that the extremely poor sportsmanship he showed when bagging out hte YZ450F and I think hes gonna find it a little harder to pull a high end contract out of the hat. And so he should. His performance these last couple of years has been nothing short of disgraceful by the standards he is judged, that is, one the of the best riders in the world. I think his career peaked in 09.
Post by: citabjockey on August 12, 2013, 06:24:23 AM
How about signing Bubba?
This might have been intended as a joke, but it might not be come contract renewal time. Bubba has delivered nothing but disappointment to his Rockstar Energy/Suzuki team. They must be kicking themselves for signing him. Add to that the extremely poor sportsmanship he showed when bagging out hte YZ450F and I think hes gonna find it a little harder to pull a high end contract out of the hat. And so he should. His performance these last couple of years has been nothing short of disgraceful by the standards he is judged, that is, one the of the best riders in the world. I think his career peaked in 09.
Post by: Stusmoke on August 12, 2013, 09:43:32 AM
This year has been better for him than last. Not crashing out near as much, seems to be much more careful. And he used to be a master on the two stroke bikes.How about signing Bubba?
This might have been intended as a joke, but it might not be come contract renewal time. Bubba has delivered nothing but disappointment to his Rockstar Energy/Suzuki team. They must be kicking themselves for signing him. Add to that the extremely poor sportsmanship he showed when bagging out hte YZ450F and I think hes gonna find it a little harder to pull a high end contract out of the hat. And so he should. His performance these last couple of years has been nothing short of disgraceful by the standards he is judged, that is, one the of the best riders in the world. I think his career peaked in 09.
This year has bee nthe better year? Last I checked he was SECOND LAST in points and he crashes out roughly 60% of his races. and THIS is the better year? In that case, my point is even more valid... I feel sorry for RE/Zooki though. He REALLY hasn't delivered. Not like a guy with his rep should anyway. Maybe he'll get a taste of his own medicine and they will break contract to get away from him and then piss on his rep on radio. But if it gets anymore piss on it the fire may go out...
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 12, 2013, 11:24:00 AM
Good job this weekend, Charles. Hope we can cheer Robbie into the points next time!
Post by: Stusmoke on August 12, 2013, 01:02:33 PM
Post by: citabjockey on August 12, 2013, 02:59:58 PM
Hangtown, 2rd
Thundervalley, 7th
Tennesee, 4th
High Point, 19th
Budds Creek, 12th
Southwick, 11th
Redbud, 2nd
Washougal, 3rd
Spring Creek, 1st
Unadilla, 11th
So yes, if you are after the championship this is not your guy. But this is an impressive record nevertheless. And if he could pull these same placings on a 250SX? It would be fun to see the Conniptions the big four would go through in that situation! He just has to get out of the money making mode and back into the fun mode (or any other speedy rider that wants to stir the pot).
This year has been better for him than last. Not crashing out near as much, seems to be much more careful. And he used to be a master on the two stroke bikes.How about signing Bubba?
This might have been intended as a joke, but it might not be come contract renewal time. Bubba has delivered nothing but disappointment to his Rockstar Energy/Suzuki team. They must be kicking themselves for signing him. Add to that the extremely poor sportsmanship he showed when bagging out hte YZ450F and I think hes gonna find it a little harder to pull a high end contract out of the hat. And so he should. His performance these last couple of years has been nothing short of disgraceful by the standards he is judged, that is, one the of the best riders in the world. I think his career peaked in 09.
This year has bee nthe better year? Last I checked he was SECOND LAST in points and he crashes out roughly 60% of his races. and THIS is the better year? In that case, my point is even more valid... I feel sorry for RE/Zooki though. He REALLY hasn't delivered. Not like a guy with his rep should anyway. Maybe he'll get a taste of his own medicine and they will break contract to get away from him and then piss on his rep on radio. But if it gets anymore piss on it the fire may go out...