Post by: adzski on June 11, 2013, 02:34:43 PM
ok so ive been playing with bikes lately and ive had a hankering to build a either kx500 or cr500.
first of all, what is the better motor and the pros and cons over each other? or are they much and much?
in regards to the cr ive read that the 86? if i remember correctly is the powerhouse of all the years they made?
ive never personally rode one so i really have no clue as to if this is true or so called internet fact! so any information by those who have would be great.
now to its host!
im not sure what frame i want to chuck it into yet. most likely a 450 as im very tall so i need the most height i can get, is a 450 much taller then a yz250? because im flat foot on that.
back to the frame torn between either a crf450 or a yzf450 probably the crf450.
also what would handle better between the 2?
Post by: Rm125guy on June 11, 2013, 10:37:51 PM
Post by: factoryX on June 11, 2013, 10:40:28 PM
Post by: Turquine on June 11, 2013, 11:22:44 PM
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Kawasaki/News/WE-RIDE-SERVICE-HONDAS-KX500AF-TWOSTROKE--1390.aspx
Here's a quote: On the track, the Service Honda KX500AF engine ripped. In comparison to the Honda CR500AF that we tested last year, the Kawasaki engine was hands down faster. Of course this didn?t come as a shock to older MXA test riders. When the two motorcycles were still in production, the KX500 engine trumped the CR500 powerplant and was preferred by every MXA tester
Post by: Lsroutlaw on June 12, 2013, 03:05:11 AM
We looked up weight at lunch after a morning of the monster stomping them, 96kx500 weighs 220 dry not any heavier then their new 450's!
I am leaning towards a KTM for my conversion only because the two 500Afs I have ridden both vibrated so bad. I have heard the Ktm frames are lighter then the Af frames and steel is the safer bet for the average fabricator. Get one you won't regret it!
Post by: Foghorn on June 12, 2013, 05:21:11 AM
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on June 12, 2013, 09:20:57 AM
Personally, I would rather find a 500 and update/restore it, rather than convert/build my own. They are still good bikes and Race Tech (et al) can update the suspension to just about as good as you'll get on a new bike. The frame geometry has not changed at all to speak of.
I love my '76 Husky 360 and my '80 Can-Am 400. If I had pillow top grips and maybe some good (antivibration) triples, I'd probably still have my KX500. Now I am about done building an '80 RM400. I know these are old bikes but there are plenty of good deals on '90's 500's out there.
Just one more thing...at the recent Portuguese National in Faial, a guy rode an old CR500 to 7th overall in combined MX1/MX2. It was a borrowed bike, just so he wouldn't fall too far back in points.
(I think I was 27th in MX2)
Post by: TotalNZ on June 12, 2013, 09:27:32 AM
I had an '87 KX500 and the only think I didn't like was the plastic and the vibration. I would think in an aluminium frame, you'd have a hard time holding on to it and no amount of rubber dampners would eliminate it. I would think a steel frame the way to go.The geometry might be the same but the riding position and ergo's of old bikes are vastly different to the new ones.
Personally, I would rather find a 500 and update/restore it, rather than convert/build my own. They are still good bikes and Race Tech (et al) can update the suspension to just about as good as you'll get on a new bike. The frame geometry has not changed at all to speak of.
I love my '76 Husky 360 and my '80 Can-Am 400. If I had pillow top grips and maybe some good (antivibration) triples, I'd probably still have my KX500. Now I am about done building an '80 RM400. I know these are old bikes but there are plenty of good deals on '90's 500's out there.
Just one more thing...at the recent Portuguese National in Faial, a guy rode an old CR500 to 7th overall in combined MX1/MX2. It was a borrowed bike, just so he wouldn't fall too far back in points.
(I think I was 27th in MX2)
Older bikes feel like you're locked in one position, like sitting in the bike rather than on it. Hard to move your weight around compared to the new stuff. I hated the feel of my 94 CR till i put extra seat foam in to flatten it out.
I'd definately rather have a new chasis, and we won't even mention the improvement in brakes over the years.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on June 12, 2013, 10:16:46 AM
Quote
The geometry might be the same but the riding position and ergo's of old bikes are vastly different to the new ones.
Older bikes feel like you're locked in one position, like sitting in the bike rather than on it. Hard to move your weight around compared to the new stuff. I hated the feel of my 94 CR till i put extra seat foam in to flatten it out.
I'd definately rather have a new chasis,...
I don't know I agree with you there. Changing seat foam has been common even back into the '70's (as it is today) to match your tastes. I happen to like taller seat foam (even though I am short) because it is less distance to stand up on the pegs from. Other's like to cut it away to get that wallowing feeling. My '90's YZ's had basically the same (not THE same) gastank/seat position as my '00's YZ's. Even though the foot peg distance apart is the same (and sometimes narrower, the aluminum frames 'feel' fatter (probably because they are wider at the top).
All that said,
Quote
... and we won't even mention the improvement in brakes over the years.I agree with you there but you could add new brakes/rotor to an older bike.
Post by: adzski on June 12, 2013, 11:12:06 AM
and for the frame thinking maybe a yz250 frame as there steel correct me if im wrong. and that may nip most of the vibration in the bud.
ive seen it done before heres a link for all that are curious
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/honda-cr-500-engine-yz-250-frame-/161039279827?pt=AU_Motorcycles&hash=item257eb066d3
but im going to have a while to think before the motor makes its way into my possesion.
Post by: SachsGS on June 12, 2013, 02:51:22 PM
It's just a hunch, but I suspect you'd like the KTM 550. The KTM is a lot friendlier then the CR or KX while being faster as well. Sink some cash into the brakes and suspension and you'd have a nice motorcycle.
Post by: Stusmoke on June 13, 2013, 12:27:29 AM
ok guys thanks for the input really appreciate it, as for the motor i think i will try grab what ever comes up first as there hard to come by in australia.
and for the frame thinking maybe a yz250 frame as there steel correct me if im wrong. and that may nip most of the vibration in the bud.
ive seen it done before heres a link for all that are curious
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/honda-cr-500-engine-yz-250-frame-/161039279827?pt=AU_Motorcycles&hash=item257eb066d3
but im going to have a while to think before the motor makes its way into my possesion.
The latest chassis for the YZ250 (2005 onwards) Is aluminium. I had a 2001 YZ250 and its handling was great. Bury the front end into the tightest inside line you can find, wick the throttle and she came out screaming. Awesome frame.
With regards to the motor, everyone I've ever spoken to prefered the KX500 motor. If you can find a KTM 380sx motor, that would also be really sweet. Throwing it into a 2011 onwards KTM mx frame would be even awesomer still.
Post by: adzski on June 13, 2013, 11:46:16 AM
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kawasaki-Kx500-Motor-complete-Kx500af-not-cr500-cr500af-/200933917101?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec89841ad
but im curious as to whether i would have to run the stock pipe(HATE THE LOOK) or could i run a new 250 pipe or something similiar?
Post by: Rm125guy on June 14, 2013, 05:22:39 AM
Post by: Foghorn on June 14, 2013, 05:28:08 AM
ok guys thanks for the input really appreciate it, as for the motor i think i will try grab what ever comes up first as there hard to come by in australia.
and for the frame thinking maybe a yz250 frame as there steel correct me if im wrong. and that may nip most of the vibration in the bud.
ive seen it done before heres a link for all that are curious
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/honda-cr-500-engine-yz-250-frame-/161039279827?pt=AU_Motorcycles&hash=item257eb066d3
but im going to have a while to think before the motor makes its way into my possesion.
The latest chassis for the YZ250 (2005 onwards) Is aluminium. I had a 2001 YZ250 and its handling was great. Bury the front end into the tightest inside line you can find, wick the throttle and she came out screaming. Awesome frame.
With regards to the motor, everyone I've ever spoken to prefered the KX500 motor. If you can find a KTM 380sx motor, that would also be really sweet. Throwing it into a 2011 onwards KTM mx frame would be even awesomer still.
With all due respect Stu, many I've spoken to have also loved and preferred the KX. Having said that, many more I've spoken too prefer the CR for many reasons. Hence the reason for more forums etc. dealing with the CR for various reasons. Both great bikes, but for many reasons, warranted or not, the CR still trumps.
Post by: Stusmoke on June 14, 2013, 05:35:20 AM
ok guys thanks for the input really appreciate it, as for the motor i think i will try grab what ever comes up first as there hard to come by in australia.
and for the frame thinking maybe a yz250 frame as there steel correct me if im wrong. and that may nip most of the vibration in the bud.
ive seen it done before heres a link for all that are curious
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/honda-cr-500-engine-yz-250-frame-/161039279827?pt=AU_Motorcycles&hash=item257eb066d3
but im going to have a while to think before the motor makes its way into my possesion.
The latest chassis for the YZ250 (2005 onwards) Is aluminium. I had a 2001 YZ250 and its handling was great. Bury the front end into the tightest inside line you can find, wick the throttle and she came out screaming. Awesome frame.
With regards to the motor, everyone I've ever spoken to prefered the KX500 motor. If you can find a KTM 380sx motor, that would also be really sweet. Throwing it into a 2011 onwards KTM mx frame would be even awesomer still.
With all due respect Stu, many I've spoken to have also loved and preferred the KX. Having said that, many more I've spoken too prefer the CR for many reasons. Hence the reason for more forums etc. dealing with the CR for various reasons. Both great bikes, but for many reasons, warranted or not, the CR still trumps.
One day I would like to drop both motors into identical chassis and really nail down the reasons. Obivously just as many people prefer the CR over the KX, otherwise the CR motor wouldn't be traded much and anyone who has looked for one knows they sell like hotcakes. Just pure chance that the... 3 or maybe four (Terrible memory) people I've spoken to prefered the KX. They were all oldies that either raced or owned a 500 back in the day.
Post by: adzski on June 14, 2013, 10:28:10 AM
Post by: opfermanmotors on June 15, 2013, 04:51:50 AM
Post by: Marco810 on June 17, 2013, 03:37:35 AM
ok something has come up
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kawasaki-Kx500-Motor-complete-Kx500af-not-cr500-cr500af-/200933917101?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec89841ad
but im curious as to whether i would have to run the stock pipe(HATE THE LOOK) or could i run a new 250 pipe or something similiar?
I would try for a 89+ k5 engine. lots of discontinued parts for the pre 89. also you'll want to run a modded cr500 pipe and silencer
I made a kx500sf and i gotta say if you plan on riding any tight track you better be in good shape cause it will ware you out in a hurry. Vibration+mandatory death grip= numb wrists
Post by: dogger315 on June 17, 2013, 05:05:00 AM
Quote
what is the better motor and the pros and cons over each other?Both are great motors. Your choice should depend on intended use, parts availability
and to a lesser extent, brand loyalty.
I did a lot of research before starting a similar project a couple of years ago. The
advantage I had is I raced 500s before the class went away. I knew what I was
getting into and I knew what modifications were needed to be able to survive a
moto.
To be honest, I didn't even consider the KX as I consider it more of a desert racer
than a MX motor. The CR is also easy to get parts for and there is a ton of support
available due to the popularity of the numerous CR based "AF" conversions out there.
With that said, In stock trim, the late model CR is not a good MX engine. It comes with
a wide ratio transmission and has a substantial hit that will stretch your arms and wear
you out in short order. It also vibrates pretty good. The one thing you don't want is a
mid 80s CR500 engine. Those engines were so powerful that even the factory riders had
them detuned. Throw in the corrosion problems from Mag water pump covers and the very
long list of NLA parts and you'll have a big mess on your hands.
Here is a partial list of the modifications I performed to correct a 2000 CR 500 shortcomings:
Close ratio tranny
Balanced and trued crank
Aluminum cylinder sleeve
Digital 3D ignition
Port and head work to lessen the hit
Aftermarket pipe and silencer
Aftermarket clutch
I opted for a 2008 Honda CRF250R frame over any of the newer models. The frame geometry
on the 06-09 CRF250 is very similar to the 93 CR250, which is one of my favorites. I also like
the slimmed down size and lighter weight over the 450F. I'm 6'1" and that frame fits me
perfectly.
What I have now is 60+ of more useable horsepower in a lightweight, modern chassis with state
of the art suspension. The bike is deceptively fast because you don't have to wring it out to make
power. All you have is the wind noise in your helmet and the corner approaching way quicker than
you expect - the first mods I made after I finished the bike was a pair of oversized wave rotors. If
I had this bike back in the 90s, I would have won a lot more races.
If you are a Kawasaki fan, some of the same mods would apply as well. Like I said, both are great
engines and both will make an awesome MXer in the right roller.
I would say you have a lot of research to do and some big decisions to make.
My two cents.
Good luck.
dogger
Post by: Stusmoke on June 17, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
Quotewhat is the better motor and the pros and cons over each other?Both are great motors. Your choice should depend on intended use, parts availability
and to a lesser extent, brand loyalty.
I did a lot of research before starting a similar project a couple of years ago. The
advantage I had is I raced 500s before the class went away. I knew what I was
getting into and I knew what modifications were needed to be able to survive a
moto.
To be honest, I didn't even consider the KX as I consider it more of a desert racer
than a MX motor. The CR is also easy to get parts for and there is a ton of support
available due to the popularity of the numerous CR based "AF" conversions out there.
With that said, In stock trim, the late model CR is not a good MX engine. It comes with
a wide ratio transmission and has a substantial hit that will stretch your arms and wear
you out in short order. It also vibrates pretty good. The one thing you don't want is a
mid 80s CR500 engine. Those engines were so powerful that even the factory riders had
them detuned. Throw in the corrosion problems from Mag water pump covers and the very
long list of NLA parts and you'll have a big mess on your hands.
Here is a partial list of the modifications I performed to correct a 2000 CR 500 shortcomings:
Close ratio tranny
Balanced and trued crank
Aluminum cylinder sleeve
Digital 3D ignition
Port and head work to lessen the hit
Aftermarket pipe and silencer
Aftermarket clutch
I opted for a 2008 Honda CRF250R frame over any of the newer models. The frame geometry
on the 06-09 CRF250 is very similar to the 93 CR250, which is one of my favorites. I also like
the slimmed down size and lighter weight over the 450F. I'm 6'1" and that frame fits me
perfectly.
What I have now is 60+ of more useable horsepower in a lightweight, modern chassis with state
of the art suspension. The bike is deceptively fast because you don't have to wring it out to make
power. All you have is the wind noise in your helmet and the corner approaching way quicker than
you expect - the first mods I made after I finished the bike was a pair of oversized wave rotors. If
I had this bike back in the 90s, I would have won a lot more races.
If you are a Kawasaki fan, some of the same mods would apply as well. Like I said, both are great
engines and both will make an awesome MXer in the right roller.
I would say you have a lot of research to do and some big decisions to make.
My two cents.
Good luck.
dogger
I think your two cents is worth two thousand cents.
Post by: SachsGS on June 17, 2013, 04:08:21 PM
Post by: adzski on June 19, 2013, 03:03:10 AM
now i just have to find one.
thanks everyone for your input, it gave me much to think about
Post by: Stusmoke on June 19, 2013, 08:36:00 AM
Post by: JETZcorp on June 19, 2013, 11:31:10 AM
Advantages of air-cooled:
- Looks bad-ass (although it would be weird with a modern-styled bike)
- No water pump, hoses, or radiators to fail or leak
- Lower center of gravity and slightly lighter overall weight
- Bike is narrower in front slightly
- The looks on 450F riders' faces after you beat them
Disadvantages of air-cooled:
- Parts availability may be an issue if you deviate from the cult-following models
- Cooling isn't as effective
- Potentially louder
- Possible geometric issues, depending on how big your motor (Maicos have BIG fins) and how strangely-shaped your frame is
- The looks on 450F riders' faces before you beat them
Post by: Stusmoke on June 19, 2013, 12:22:24 PM
If you REALLY want to make everyone mad, you could use an air-cooled engine. I've heard better things about an '83 490 Maico than I have about CR500 or KX500, which is really all I can say as I haven't ridden them myself. If you want something less exotic (but weirdly, harder to find parts for) you could get a CR480 or YZ490. I think Super Hunky had some kind of plan to make a bike like this at one point, but I'm not sure if it ever happened.
Advantages of air-cooled:
- Looks bad-ass (although it would be weird with a modern-styled bike)
- No water pump, hoses, or radiators to fail or leak
- Lower center of gravity and slightly lighter overall weight
- Bike is narrower in front slightly
- The looks on 450F riders' faces after you beat them
Disadvantages of air-cooled:
- Parts availability may be an issue if you deviate from the cult-following models
- Cooling isn't as effective
- Potentially louder
- Possible geometric issues, depending on how big your motor (Maicos have BIG fins) and how strangely-shaped your frame is
- The looks on 450F riders' faces before you beat them
Jetz raises a good point. Honestly when its all said and done theres lots of motors that would be great to have new life breathed into them. Maicos, Hondas early CR480, CR450, YZ/IT 490, WR 4something, obviously the KX500 and CR500, the list goes on. These days one of your biggest concerns is the ability to get the bloody parts. Most of the big bore smokers had issues that could be fixed easily enough. I've never worked on any of them or owned I'm just repeating the things I've read and heard. My brother had a WR 4something I believe it was that was bored out to a 490. He loved it to bits. Monstrously powerful and torquey.
As I said, from my perspective, the biggest thing for me would be the ability to get parts. Hey while all the experienced blokes are looking at this thread, how hard is it to sleeve a big bore motor like the CR or KX500 down to 450ccs? and Obviously finding the piston to fit it and replace said piston when necessary?
Post by: Marco810 on June 19, 2013, 02:13:03 PM
Also the fact that they are nikasil plated out of the factory
Post by: yota on June 19, 2013, 08:41:40 PM
If you REALLY want to make everyone mad, you could use an air-cooled engine. I've heard better things about an '83 490 Maico than I have about CR500 or KX500, which is really all I can say as I haven't ridden them myself. If you want something less exotic (but weirdly, harder to find parts for) you could get a CR480 or YZ490. I think Super Hunky had some kind of plan to make a bike like this at one point, but I'm not sure if it ever happened.
Advantages of air-cooled:
- Looks bad-ass (although it would be weird with a modern-styled bike)
- No water pump, hoses, or radiators to fail or leak
- Lower center of gravity and slightly lighter overall weight
- Bike is narrower in front slightly
- The looks on 450F riders' faces after you beat them
finding a modern chassis to put a RH drive motor into could be a challenge.
Disadvantages of air-cooled:
- Parts availability may be an issue if you deviate from the cult-following models
- Cooling isn't as effective
- Potentially louder
- Possible geometric issues, depending on how big your motor (Maicos have BIG fins) and how strangely-shaped your frame is
- The looks on 450F riders' faces before you beat them
Post by: JETZcorp on June 20, 2013, 08:42:52 AM
Post by: adzski on June 20, 2013, 10:52:34 AM
Post by: SachsGS on June 20, 2013, 03:23:44 PM
AF conversions are nice but they are a "Dime a dozen". I personally would be inclined to build something more creative along the lines of a big bore KTM motor in a modern KTM f chassis.
Post by: Stusmoke on July 01, 2013, 08:21:55 AM
Right hand drive isn't that much of an issue.
AF conversions are nice but they are a "Dime a dozen". I personally would be inclined to build something more creative along the lines of a big bore KTM motor in a modern KTM f chassis.
It blows my mind how many people over look that. KTM had a golden opportunity with their 360/380 motor. Apart from their jetting issues anyway. Now I'm still a 500 virgin, but I think 250s are pretty damn quick so 500s must be eye watering. Anyway my point is the middle ground would have been awesome. Faster than a 250, slower than a 500. I mean if the factory 500 riders were asking for LESS HP, wouldn't a 380 be the perfect medium?
Maybe when two strokes take over the motocross world for a second time (knock on wood) KTM will return to the idea. If it wasn't for the four stroke devolution I'd imagine every manufacturer would have followed suite aswell. Ahhh if only
Post by: jar944 on July 06, 2013, 03:24:00 PM
Right hand drive isn't that much of an issue.
AF conversions are nice but they are a "Dime a dozen". I personally would be inclined to build something more creative along the lines of a big bore KTM motor in a modern KTM f chassis.
Lots to overcome with that swap.
Post by: Stusmoke on July 07, 2013, 08:38:54 AM
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 14, 2013, 09:02:45 AM
I tried to comment on it but it called me a SPAMBOT!
Post by: Stusmoke on July 14, 2013, 10:48:02 AM
Post by: jar944 on July 14, 2013, 05:09:41 PM
Don't forget to look at the article on TSM or in MXA about the FMF500 (2013 KTM 250SX framed KX500) built for Danny LaPorte!
I tried to comment on it but it called me a SPAMBOT!
Looks a bit hacked together...If the head stay is actually welded to the frame (as it appears in the pics) its a full on abortion.