Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: ford832 on May 03, 2010, 03:44:04 PM
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Don't get me wrong,I think all the old bikes are super cool but to compare them to modern day in power or handling is a bit of a reach.
Anyway,two examples.The first is from this months mxa's ask the mxperts.I'm not going to type it all out as I already did and for some reason was unable to post it-likely a Maico conspiracy :D
Paraphrased,the guys asks where he can find a good old air cooled open bike like the maico he raced 30 years ago.Their reply-buy a modern day YZ as it has more power,etc,etc, than your old maico ever dreamed of.
Example two.A real race video of a Maico 490 ridden by Jonathan Belle.Vid lasts about 5 min.Take note of the handling of the other period bikes in the race.As for how this turns out,yes,this was largely what it was like back then as many of us lived in that era.
http://www.jonathanbelle.com/Videos/06-07_races/2007-03-24_brighton_evo-a.wmv (http://www.jonathanbelle.com/Videos/06-07_races/2007-03-24_brighton_evo-a.wmv)
There,end of discussion.You're welcome :D
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Not so fast! 1st of all those guys at MXA can't get their stories straight.One minute the 1981 490 is "the best handling bike of all time" then next minute "we're all a bunch of Adolph Weil wannabees".
Secondly, JB obviously hasn't ridden many big bore Maicos. If you stall the bike and it doesn't start in the first kick or two, you've lost your "intake charge". Prime it once or twice with the choke, turn the choke off and a kick or two later you are on your way. The fact that he could easily kick the bike over "sans" decompressor lever while seated tells me that the engine is probaly tired. Tightening that kickstart bolt before the race would help as well.
Thirdly, 27 year old damper rod suspension is no match for the modern position sensitive stuff, the fact that a three decade old motorcycle even went as fast as it did speaks volumes about that 83 490.
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You weren't listening to me sachs.I said... "End of discussion!" >:(
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I knew I'd get someone riled.I saw jetzcorp on but has since disappeared.Likely stewing and doing some net research.Lol,I kill myself...oh mercy..... ;D
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Hey ford832,Should,nt you be on some kind of "Ford" site instead of critisizing the people on this two stroke MX site who just may prefer the older 2-strokes as opposed to a modern bike!If I were you I'd go get your tool box out(if you have any tools!)and work on your FORD!which stands for FUC**NG OLD REBUILT DODGE anyway & I'm sure if it's a Ford it needs worked on! LOL ;D
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Wow...
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Actually breakoman009,If you read the first part of my post I wasn't ragging on the old bikes at all,just giving a little reality check.As for the Ford thing,it's not my vehicle of choice,it's simply my last name.As for tools,having worked as an auto mechanic for the past 25 years and having been ase certified and with my interprovincial license(Canadian version)I've acquired one or two over the years.Unfortunately,I am sadly lacking in precision Maico tools.Maybe I'll go in to work tomorrow and grab the oxyacetylene torch and some old steel stock and cut out a few ;D
PS.I prefer FORD backwards.Driver Returns On Foot.
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End of discussion? I say "let the games begin"! Actually I enjoy the old bikes AND the new bikes immensely, I have fun riding either of them.
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Lol,sounds good to me.Unfortunately,I have to go put the little one to bed and go fire a new S12 on the bike before beddy bye.I'll check in tomorrow.Have at er........ :P
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There's a lot of talk about "modern" and "innovation" and "all new" and "redesigned" surrounding these new 4t race engines. If you really look at it though, it's amazing how little these modern, innovative, all new, and redesigned machines have over a bike like the old Maico 490.
Hell, yamaha's biggest 4t innovation in the last few years has been to flip the cylinder around. Big flipping whoop? 90% marketing, 10% actual improvement. And even that is probably being overly generous.
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Your in a funny mood today ford.
Be careful some people here are easily offended.
Was that a couple of modern bikes passing the Maico ?
Couldn't quite see as they went passed so quickly. :P
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I know, looked like they were going backwards. Poor guys couldn't even climb a 45 degree slope in fifth gear.
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George Marshall says otherwise:
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2008/12/1981-maico-490-george-marshall (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2008/12/1981-maico-490-george-marshall)
That 83 was beat in the video, he wasn't even using the compression release, sitting down, not even going to TDC to start it.
Maico isn't magic you also actually have to ride it. I could sit on the track on a modern bike and not even use the gas and say a Hodaka is passing me, the new bikes must suck! My 83 was beat before I just started rebuilding it, 9thousands over what it should have been and it was still easy to start.
Also, I don't write into a website and ask them my own opinion, I ride the bikes and make my own opinion. Maicos rule and other bikes drool!
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Ahhh! Maico's, If nothing else they evoke a heck of alot of passion....on both sides of the debate.
FORD.Found On Rubbish Dump. :D
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Brad Lackey says otherwise, also, comparing a Maico 490 to his 2010 RMZ450. I think his comments are on Super Hunky's site. If you live close by, I have a nice track you could bring your YZ to compare it to my 81 490 Maico. You will honestly not be able to say much after you ride mine. The rider in this video is obviously not a 500 rider, nor is the area he's riding fit for a big bore 2-stroke. He looked like he was wasting a lot of time waiting for other riders to get out of the way. The 83 Maico 490's are easier to start than any modern 250, so there is definitely something wrong with the one this guy is riding.
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Hey Guys... I think that you have mis-understood Ford.... he has a wonderful sense of humor. He is a bit frustrated and was trying to state that in a fun way... what is he frustrated about?
Almost every thread on the forum seems to turn into a Maico discussion.
Now I love Maico's.. old ones and new ones... but they are not the answer to everyone prayers.... nor the answer to every question.
At times there have been some incredulous claims about the Maico... I know that some are true.. but some are fantasy as well. While the early 1980's Maicos were legendary (at least to those who loved them) they carry a mystique unparalleled by almost any other brand. But to claim that they are a better choice for Pro Motocross in 2010 is a big stretch. Now if your talking about the M.M.X. that's one thing, but a 1980's bike against the modern ones? It's not possible, no matter how much you love Maico.
Ford was basically calling you Maico guys out because of what I stated above... he is just pulling your chain!!
Have fun and remember they're just dirt bikes... enjoy whichever one you like best. But just because you have a favorite, not everyone has to agree or like yours...
I know it;s hard to believe for your Maico fans, but they don't float everyone's boat. Some of you are starting to sound like born again Christians. So passionate about what you are doing that you actually turn others off to your message. Kick it down a notch or two... okay???
Besides there is no contest to see who can say Maico most in the forum... but let's see how often you can use the word "bent"... :P :P :P
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Amen John.
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Oh come on John,you're ending this thread too soon as I'd hardly got started.As a matter of fact,I giggled to myself anytime I thought of it at work today.So,before I'm done I just have to make a few replies.Here goes........
TMKIWI- Nah,that's just me.I've been holding back for a while.
Opfermanmotors-Who's George Marshall?Moreover,the fact that his ability or riding style better suits an old big bore 2t is just fine but it doesn't make it gospel to 99.9% of the rest of the population-myself included.
evo550- FORD- First On Race Day.Yeah,Baby 8)
Paul P - I'd love to take a crack at it.The closest I've come is a can am 400.Where are you at?I'm in Nova Scotia.
BTW,you're right and I'm likely being unfair posting that video in that locale.The terrain was a little uneven and had various
direction changes.Perhaps if I find another that is mostly straight and flat it will better highlight the strengths of the 490.
I'll look around.... :D ;)
Juliend- That's completely true but using that logic one could say Massa's Ferrari engine isn't that far removed from a model T engine as
they both have the same basic design as far as being an internal combustion 4t engine is concerned.Still,the differences
are far from subtle-at least to me.
John- Good post.As for the bent thing,hows this-I bought a new Maico and right away noticed the bars were bent,the rims were
bent and the frame was bent.I called the dealer and they told me to "get bent"-then went out of business-again.There,
what do I win? ;D
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Sorry to ruin your fun... just didn't want to get anyone too upset!! ;D ;D
When I Google "bent" I got....
(http://www.impawards.com/1997/posters/bent_ver1.jpg)
(http://cache.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2007/05/Ferrari_Enzo_Gets_Bent_02.jpg)
OUCH!!
(http://www.ohlalaparis.com/photos/uncategorized/bent16020703.jpg)
Yikes!! :o :o
(http://elsieyogakula.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/dd_bent_legs.jpg)
(http://www.gala.fr/var/gal/storage/images/les_stars/leurs_bio/bent_amel/images/amel_bent/213797-1-fre-FR/amel_bent_reference.jpg)
Amel Bent
Matchbox Twenty - Bent (Video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=969RAKkYESU#)
By the way Ford, this is George Marshall.....
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2008/12/1981-maico-490-george-marshall/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2008/12/1981-maico-490-george-marshall/)
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Lol,I'm glad I didn't google it.Thanks for the Marshall link.Pretty cool but I still don't take one mans opinion as gospel-unless that one man is me ;D
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Sooo... who has actually ridden a Maico and a modern bike? and I mean ridden for a good period of time. I guess I dont have a valid opinion because ive never ridden a Maico.
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I've ridden both, but there were far too many years in between the time I rode the Maico and the modern bike to make any comment.
I like Ford's comment in this, the only person I would trust which would work best for me, is me.
Hopefully in a few months I will ride one of the new Maicos and I can then compare that to the TM. Maybe not a fair comparison either!!
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Sooo... who has actually ridden a Maico and a modern bike? and I mean ridden for a good period of time. I guess I dont have a valid opinion because ive never ridden a Maico.
i own a legendary (to some, not me) '81 490 and modern bikes. i don't ride it much about once a year mainly because i will sell it eventually and it's original so i don't want to break anything. i don't have the desire to seek out parts or dump money into it. i got the Maico as a package deal back in '89 with an '88 CR500 and trailer. i only wanted the CR but the guy was getting married and wouldn't break up the group. i guess i was the only person who showed up with money because he wouldn't let me leave and kept lowering the price until i hauled it all away. i have found that most people who go on and on about Maico's have never ridden one. the clutch is terrible, the Bing carb isn't real great, the front brake sucks when compared to other drum brake bikes. it runs good and can handle smoother tracks pretty well. i did run it on the dyno in 1997 or 1998, i can't remember. the first run it didn't break the 50hp mark, it was 49.8 hp. the second run was in the cooler morning and it made 50.5hp.
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The clutch is hard to pull in... but... why the hell are you using the clutch on a Maico? Nobody uses the clutch on a Maico, it's a waste of time. The bike shifts very well without using it, and there's enough torque (simply because it is 485cc) that once you get moving, you don't need to bother with it. Even if it was a perfect clutch with zero force required to pull it in, you'd be able to shift faster and actually smoother without it. And when it was new, they said you could park the bike in a cold garage for months, then put it in first with the engine off, pull in the clutch, and roll the bike with no resistance. I don't know if a modern clutch will do that (maybe they do) but I'll tell you for damn sure my Husky won't do that.
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I own an 81 Maico 250 (Wheelsmith) ,490 and a newer 380 and 500. There is a reason why there are companies building replicas of the 81 and it is because they have a very good reputation, never mind all the parts suppliers and restoration specialists.
I have ridden the steel framed TMs quite extensively and they are excellent motorcycles that you will never confuse with a japanese machine. Compared to a TM 300 I found my Maico 380 both faster and easier to ride. Though I am most definately not a 125 sized pilot I really enjoy the TM125, they are a blast ! I recently picked up a "butchered" TM 250 and ,though still injured, will rebuild that machine and go for a "put".
The recent success of the 2010 Maico MMX means we diehard Maico enthusiests won't always have to talk in past tense and defend a machine that last saw the limelight eons ago. I hope much success comes to Maico International because we need some new "blood" in the sport, even if it is the resurection of an old icon.
OH, and before I forget, when are you Kiwis going to learn to drive on the CORRECT side of the road? (A preemptive strike cause I know you're going to "rag" the Maico somehow!).
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Here are 2 bikes.
1 from 1994.
1 from 2010.
Do they look much different? No.
Is 1 quicker then the other? You bet!!
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab207/tmkiwi/n509354_pedrosa_action_2_thumbnail.jpg)
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab207/tmkiwi/GPIA94_B_sized.jpg)
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NEVER Sachs.
I'm with ford on this.
Not trying to put your bikes down, but seeing how passionate some guys here are, it's easy to take the piss.
Ride what you got and ride it hard.
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That's what she said.
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I have a collection of bikes from my first purchase (Rickman Montesa)when I was 16 in 1972 to my 99 CR 250. After owning and riding modern and vintage (antiques?) I feel the modern bikes best trait is landing from jumps. The stiffer suspension seems to make the landings safer and smoother. Every one of the 'big four' bikes are a bit twitchy. You need to ride them on the edge a bit.
I have a nice dialed 93 CR125 that I embarassed many 250F bikes with in the last 8 years. I actually like it better than the 02 YZ125 my freind has. I revalved his suspension for him. The 03 KTM 125 is a solid handling bike with great power. I felt more comfy on that than the YZ. John Dowd's 03 250 KTM was the fastest 250 I have tried, and it handled great. The newest bikes I've ridden and hated all of them, were the 4-strokes. I like 4-strokes, but the MX ones are just not what motocross needs. I just did suspension work on a 03 KX 250 and got to ride it enough to help dial it in. It's nowhere near as fast as my 99 CR but it was a good handling bike that was easy to ride, still a little twitchy.
Ford, I am in the US in Mass. about 30 minutes from SOuthwick. It would be quite a haul to come out just to ride, but if you ever make it to the Southwick National, email me, I'll have something for you to ride.
I'm not trying to bash anyone when I comment on my Maico. I just want more people to try it out. Most that put them down never owned one, never ridden one that has not been trashed, or never ridden one that has had the suspension balanced, or jetted right. Then their word is gospel for the young guys coming up who can't even pronounce the name right. Once a bunch of kids that were out at a private track riding where I was thought I was riding some prototype Honda or a Chinese bike.
John, I don't live far from you and have a good area for a little GP style moto-ing. I'd love to try a TM out.
Let me know if you're interested, I can't have 4T riders because of the neighbors, but I have had no complaints with 2T's here for over 40 years.
Paul
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Paul P you make a good point.
Suspension!!!!. Most important part of the bike.
Forget about horsepower, if you dont have decent suspension you wont go any faster.
And it needs to be setup for YOU.
Forget about fancy pipes and such.
Spend some money on the things that keep the bike upright.
Sachs: My 07 300 handles like a dream.
But of cause i have set it up for ME.
It handles better then my RM. And that was a good handling bike.
Not saying my bike is the best. But it is perfect for ME.
No I havn't riden a Maico , but the TM is the best handling bike i have ridden in the last few years.
That list includes: CRF's,KXF's,SX's,KX's,EXC's.
But thats the thing, those bikes were not set up for me.
I rode a mates KXF250 a while back that was set up for the nationals.
Man that thing was stiff. Thats the way he liked his bikes set up.
It was real harsh in the stroke which took awhile to get used to.
One mans dream is another mans nightmare.
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Hey Paul P - your track sounds like it could be fun! Does this track consist of sand similar to Southwick?
Of course if we come up to ride you can ride the TM... just pointing out for everyone reading, you have to keep this machine on the pipe! It does not have the low-end of a Yamaha... but if you scream it, you'll be rewarded with one of the fastest 125's you have ever ridden...
Hey Ford, I know it's a long ride for you, but would you like to join us?
You guys will be attending the Southwick National? Right? Supporting Project Two 50!
Suspension that is set up for you is so very important... most people don't think about it. Or worse they send their suspension to some "well known" suspension "guru" who put's in the same stuff as "star racer" who won everything.. the thing is that guy might like suspension so stiff that it wouldn't move unless you hit a 100' triple in 5th gear! Useless for an intermediate rider....
Just to clarify, I have nothing against the Maico, even the old ones... in fact I love them. Very cool bikes. They don't need to be in every single thread on this forum... okie dokie??
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haha this thread is gold, lol RM 250 FTW!!! it is actually funny on this site is see alot of ppl that alot of the talking up of bikes is 1 maico 2 ktm 3 tm 4 yamaha 5 suzuki and i am sure there are a few others but kawasaki lol i have not heard one person say they where a good bike, idon't like the feel of every one i have rode but there not that bad are they??? surely better then some old POS 83 maico????????? :-X
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The clutch is hard to pull in... but... why the hell are you using the clutch on a Maico? Nobody uses the clutch on a Maico, it's a waste of time. The bike shifts very well without using it, and there's enough torque (simply because it is 485cc) that once you get moving, you don't need to bother with it. Even if it was a perfect clutch with zero force required to pull it in, you'd be able to shift faster and actually smoother without it. And when it was new, they said you could park the bike in a cold garage for months, then put it in first with the engine off, pull in the clutch, and roll the bike with no resistance. I don't know if a modern clutch will do that (maybe they do) but I'll tell you for damn sure my Husky won't do that.
Jetz, if you are ever in the midwest maybe you can meet up with me and give me some pointers on how to ride open bikes and MX. :P
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I once owned a motorsports shop and repaired and serviced a 30 year span of Kawasaki products . I found Kawasaki to be a very perplexing company - the big street bikes are very well made and some of the ATVs not very good at all. During the 90s many of my freinds raced KXs and did very well, but to a bike all their mounts were worn out "rattletraps" half way through the season, sagging footpegs and other quality issues plagued them. Most telling was that there was no brand loyalty, most of my freinds moving on to CRFs or (surprisingly) Gassers.
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Somebody asked about Kawasakis. I too love the older Maicos, 490s anyhow, but the KX 500 was a great machine. The most powerful of all the Japanese 500s when stock, and in a correct state of tune. The Honda CR 500 could probably be hopped up further than the big green machine, but stock, the KX could take it or any other Japanese machine. They owned the Baja for as long as Kawasaki cared to compete in the event. With the Service Honda AF frame, it can be made into an excellent motocrosser and already has far more power than any of the modern thumpers. It was a fast, powerful, solid machine from all I've ever heard or read. Not all Kawasakis were junk, the KX 500 was a great machine and currently holds the world's top speed record for dirtbikes, beating out the 1981 KTM 495 which previously held that honor. From the tests I've read over the years, the only machine I've ever read about that could pull it through the gears was the mid '90s KTM 550 2stroke.
Were I still able to ride, I'd buy one of these if I could find one in good condition. The new Maicos, 500 and up, probably are more powerful and no doubt far superior in suspension and handling, but there isn't much info on them yet, and I'd be leery of buying one until I knew more. Sure, I know many CR owners out there will have a story as to how their CR 500 blew away a KX 500 here or there, but the magazines all pretty much found the KX out accelerating it in the tests. Say what you will though, the KX 500 was a great Kawasaki and is still pretty much the one to beat. I will admit though, that the CR was a better motocrosser, but not as good of an all-around off-road machine. Just thought I'd get in a plug for Kawasaki here, or at least, that particular model. Any KX500 from 1990-2004 was a great bike that could hold its own against nearly anything, and to my knowledge, that hasn't changed. Their KDX 200s and 220s were also rock-solid and reliable machines although not particularly high performance bikes.
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Thanks for the invite guys.I'd absolutely love to make a trip down.The wife wants to go south on vacation.Maybe I can convince her Mass is south enough and Southwick sand is as good a place as any to throw your towel.I'll work on her.The opposite applies as well of course-anyone wanting to make a trip to N.S.,let me know.
As TMKIWI said,suspension is absolutely everything.Whenever I get a new bike it takes me the best part of a season to get the suspension to where I like it,all the while bitching that it kicks a little here,packs a little there and so on-then I ride one of my friends older bikes and think to myself-even at the worst,I've got no right to complain-but do anyway,and continue to frig. :)
Kawasakis in the 90's were a bit rough for sure but I think,with a few exceptions,most are similar now.I had a couple friends that had 125's and 250's both.The 125's had about a 400rpm brap from upper mid and the 250's,while having decent power,vibrated like paint shakers.Quality on both was grim for sure.As for the 500's,the KX had the CR but it was also a PV motor as well.
I remember one of the mags tests on the 500 way back when.Apparently,they pulled the motor for something and a bunch of hand made shims fell out-an effort to quell vibration and tighten tolerances it would seem.
My vote for Kawi of all time would go to the KDX-either 200 or 220.While some of the parts are chintzy,and it's excessively choked up such that it feels like a rag in the airbox when stock,it can be made to rip very cheaply and easily and is a fine woods bike.
As for GasGas,a fine bike.I'd buy one with no hesitation whatsoever.As a matter of fact,as long as the old YZ continues to treat me well,and I'm sure it will,my next new bike will be a gasgas trials-2t of course and a TM144.Anyone got any extra $$$? ;)
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And when it was new, they said you could park the bike in a cold garage for months, then put it in first with the engine off, pull in the clutch, and roll the bike with no resistance. I don't know if a modern clutch will do that (maybe they do) but I'll tell you for damn sure my Husky won't do that.
A clutch that sticks like that when cold is caused by the cohesion of the trans oil to the friction and metal plates.A well designed,precision machined clutch system will always do that-if it doesn't,you've likely got troubles.
As for shifting,I always use the clutch.I'm hardly RC so the split second loss doesn't matter and besides,it's easier on the gear.Oddly enough,that's why the manufacturers put them on there. :)
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I did a flat track meeting a couple of seasons back on my RM.
Trying to hang with some 450's i decided to not use the clutch.
Result !
1 broken gearbox.
D'oh.
I use my clutch now.
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Thanks for the invite guys.I'd absolutely love to make a trip down.The wife wants to go south on vacation.Maybe I can convince her Mass is south enough and Southwick sand is as good a place as any to throw your towel.I'll work on her.The opposite applies as well of course-anyone wanting to make a trip to N.S.,let me know.
Don't you get some kind of Canadian Nation up N.S. way? We were going to attempt to race a few this season, but may not be able to do so... but it would be cool knowing someone if we did go!
As for the wife, you may want to make Southwick a stop on the way home from a place with a proper beach, ocean, waves, seagulls and Piña coladas.... believe me that will work best for your marriage... plus she'll be happy to stop at an MX track on the way home after a lovely holiday! ;D ;D
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Hey Rota, I don't know if you've caught any of my ravings on my '67 Kawasaki, but it's the most entertaining bike I've ever ridden. If ever there comes a point in my life where I'm homeless and have to live under a bridge, I'll sleep under a newspaper with the Kawi chained to my leg. I will never get rid of that bike. Then of course there were the Green Streaks, which started Kawasaki's trend with green (long before the other Japanese companies adopted their current colors) and were legendary for being insanely powerful (and ridiculously heavy, except the 100.)
As for gearbox reliability, I've seen plenty of 30-year-old Maico gearboxes used by a rider who never uses the clutch on up-shifts. Just remember to let off the throttle when you're shifting. The two speed-shifting methods I've come across are my dad's method, which is to ignore the clutch and shift with the gas off, and my uncle's method, which is to hold the gas on and slip the clutch. They're about equally fast, but the latter method doesn't feels as natural for the bike, to me.
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Hey Turquine your post about the Kawasaki KX-500 holding the fastest speed record for a dirtbike is correct & you also stated that it even beat the current record held by a 1981 KTM-495 but the one thing that you failed to mention is technically the 81 KTM-495 still holds the record for being the fastest PRODUCTION bike whereas the KX-500 that ran a bit faster than the KTM-495 was NOT an all stock production bike like the KTM!Yes the MODIFIED KX-500 went faster than the all stock KTM but if the KX-500 was completely stock I don't believe it would have went as fast as the Katoom! ;)
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John,there used to be a national in Nova Scotia but it is now held the next province over in New Brunswick.Regardless,it's only about 4 hrs away from me and I hit it every couple years.I'd love to see you guys put in an appearance.I could even help out-I'm pretty good at eating steaks and drinking beer ;D
I'll work on the wife but I don't hold out much hope.In truth,I don't want to go south anyway but the two girls out vote me.Maybe when I figure I'm somewhere in the right area I'll fake a heart attack or something to get the plane to land :D
I almost forgot,for stock dirt bike speed records I assume you guys are talking two strokes only-if not,it belongs to the 650 Husaberg.My 550 was good for just a tick under 100mph.
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I once owned a motorsports shop and repaired and serviced a 30 year span of Kawasaki products . I found Kawasaki to be a very perplexing company - the big street bikes are very well made and some of the ATVs not very good at all. During the 90s many of my freinds raced KXs and did very well, but to a bike all their mounts were worn out "rattletraps" half way through the season, sagging footpegs and other quality issues plagued them. Most telling was that there was no brand loyalty, most of my freinds moving on to CRFs or (surprisingly) Gassers.
you got it right with your description of Kawasaki KX's. the worst steel frames ever. i welded more KX frames than all other brands put together. footpeg mounts wallowed out in six months, frames stretched, Elektro-fusion cylinder plating peeled, engine cases leaked, lots of 3rd gear problems on the 250's and 500's. their street bikes always seemed rugged as hell and make big power. Kaw has made some strides in the durability of their offroad machines in the last 6 years though.
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Well, Maicoman, not exactly sure what you mean by stock. The KX500 I??m talking about was not the one in a street frame, and here??s how they defined ??stock.? -->
http://www.wolbrinkrace.blogspot.com/ (http://www.wolbrinkrace.blogspot.com/)
??We are all really stoked that with everyone's help we got a stock MX bike to run down the track at nearly 126 mph with Mark on it's back! We defined stock like Rod Bush did...stock pipe & carb, different gearing and tires.
According to the ECTA, the new world record speed for a stock MX bike is 125.854 mph. This was also fast enough to set an East Coast Speed record for 500cc motorcycles running in the modified frame class burning fuel. The official time slip is thumb tacked over the copy of the original KTM article hanging in the shop.?
The ??stock? KX 500 did 125.854 mph and you can see it here -->
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/worlds-fastest-mx-bike-kawasaki-kx500/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/worlds-fastest-mx-bike-kawasaki-kx500/)
They also had a modified KX 500 in a street type frame that did 130.418 mph, which you can find right here -->
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2008/12/worlds-fastest-dirt-bike/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2008/12/worlds-fastest-dirt-bike/)
I??m talking about the first one, not the second.
Now the ??81 KTM 495 you are talking about had considerably less power than the ??82 model (the one with the internal flywheel rotor), and I have not doubt that had someone done the same test with the ??82, it could beat the KX. I seriously doubt that the ??81 had as much power as a KX 500, certainly not in the low-end or midrange, and probably not on top either. The article on exactly how the ??81 KTM 495 was ??prepped? to reach a top speed of 123.75 mph, can be found here. -->
http://dirtbike.off-road.com/dirtbike/Reviews+Dirtbikes:+KTM/Vintage-The-Fastest-Stock-Dirtbike-Ever-Built/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/523565?contextCategoryId=46618 (http://dirtbike.off-road.com/dirtbike/Reviews+Dirtbikes:+KTM/Vintage-The-Fastest-Stock-Dirtbike-Ever-Built/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/523565?contextCategoryId=46618)
In case the links don??t work, here is how they defined ??stock? when they made the speed run on the '81 KTM 495-->
??A 16-tooth countershaft sprocket was delayed from Austria, so we had to go with a 15-fang version. Internal changes were needed to make up for this. A 20-tooth fifth gear from a 390 enduro bike was slipped in. Primary drive was 31/79.The gearing at the rear was limited to 48 teeth. Not enough for what we had in mind. A YZ250G rear wheel was found to be a virtual slip-fit, just by making some simple spacers. This let us drop to a 44-tooth rear sprocket, which is just about worth one more tooth on the countershaft.
To play it safe, we also installed a gigantic 150.80 x 18 Metzeler, two-ply, nylon tire. This massive tire is almost 29 inches tall and noticeably dwarfs a 4.50 x 18 Metz. A larger tire is much like gearing a bike up. Rod felt that he could get some extra rpm out of the engine by changing the timing.
The deck height was changed to 1.4mm, from a normal height of .8 to .9mm. Intake and exhaust manifolds were carefully matched, but no porting was done. Carburetion was left standard. Ron ran premium gas with a 50:1 Duralube mix. Klotz Octane Booster was added to get rid of any possible detonation at the high engine speeds we'd be running at. ??
So, Maicoman, I just don??t see the big advantage you seem to think the KX was given here to beat the old KTM record. Maybe I'm missing something though.
I doubt very seriously, however, that the ??81 KTM 495 could beat the KX in a drag or throttle roll on, all things being equal. The ??94 KTM 550 could and did, although I can??t seem to find the link where it was tested against the CR500, KX500, and Yamaha WR500, but it??s out there in .pdf format on the web. I am pretty sure that the ??82 KTM 495 could beat the KX without much difficulty, and probably a good running ??83 Maico Sand Spider, and the newer Maicos, 500 and up, but I can??t think of any other candidates that could, stock.
So I think I??m disagreeing with you here, but I certainly could be mistaken, or misunderstanding your parameters for a ??stock? machine.
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Now that was a comprehensive post. Every question I had whilst reading it was soon answered. Guess I don't have much else to contribute to this discussion at the moment, but there you go.
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Thanks. JETZ. I really wanted to add some other links but couldn't find them. Had them bookmarked on my main PC but it crashed and is in the shop. To Ford, I wasn't referring to fast meaning stock gearing. The KX500 only did about 86 mph with stock gearing, and of course, a lot of dirtbikes came stock geared to go considerably faster than that. The Husky 500 2strokes from '83 to '85 had six gears and were considerably faster top speed.
What we're talking about here is basically how fast "can" the bike go when you raise the gearing as high as possible. Which bikes have enough power to pull such high gearing to speeds over 120 mph. One of the tests I tried to find but couldn't, had Dirtbike mag (I think it was them anyhow) just a few years ago testing several contenders here trying for just that, including the Husaberg, and it didn't fare that well. They also tested the KX500, but only got around 115 or 117 mph out of the KX there, because the local dealer didn't have any larger sprockets on hand. The Honda XR650 won this test getting to either 120 or 121, but they really stripped it down to get an extra 2 mph or so out of it. I felt robbed, at the time because I just knew the KX could beat that, since it had considerably more power, if they'd only had the sprockets. Fortunately this wonderful site here had the link vindicating my belief on that. Thanks a million, by the way for that, John. I LOVE this website!
It would be interesting to test an old Husky '85 CR or XC500 like this with its six-speed tranny. It didn't have quite the power of the KX500 or '81 KTM495, but that extra gear would help a lot. If the KX 500 had been given a 6 speed tranny to start with, I've little doubt that it would have topped 130 in its stock frame. Were I building them, all 500s would have a 7 speed tranny. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it, lol. Hear that, Maico, how about building your 620 and 700 models with a 7 speed transmission stock? That would bury any competition and put an end to all arguments instantly, lol. Nobody would be able to beat that! Husky had an 8 speed desert racer in the late 60s so don't tell me it can't be done. Not only that, but it might bring the topics here back from the longing and nostalgia for the vintage machines back into focusing on the modern era. Oh well, one can hope, can he not? That indeed, would be, "The Final Answer" and Maico would have it in spades!
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Ah,I get it,thanks.
As for the Maico thing,I hear tell they're the best bike ever built,I can't imagine one with eight speeds :o ;D
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I think a seven-speed would add some weight to the package, not to mention the need for new, wider cases to contain those gears, and the weight of extra oil to lubricate this bigger engine. But, as I've said before, I think every bike needs at least six gears. When I rode my dad's '77 Maico, there were only two things I didn't like. One was that it lacked the low-end of my Husky, which is largely because it's got a '75 cylinder on it, and there was a lot of advancement in two-strokes during that time, because it had only been in the mainstream for a short time. That was easily cured with throttle and a snap of the clutch, though, at which point the motor was faultless. But what really let it down was the lack of a sixth gear. Compared to the Husky, on the long gravel roads it felt like I was doing ten miles per hour. I could get it to go actually quite fast just by revving it, but at a certain point, it started vibrating so much my ass went instantly numb, so I had to tone it down a little bit. That particular bike, which was ported for big-time motocross competition, has a rich history of revving so high that people think it's going to explode.
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Nothing wrong with your post Jetzcorp but just the wording leaves me with multiple possibilities for ahole type comments just for giggles.I'm trying to be good though.Your turn tmkiwi
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Nah Ford not in the mood.
I was wondering though weather it was really his arse that went numb.
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Hahahahaha,all right I'll take it from there.
Just a couple anyway.
Jetzcorp,it likely felt like you were doing ten miles per hour because you were and it likely had a history of people thinking it was going to explode because they did ;D Sorry,I'll leave the rest but I do feel better now :)
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I'd say I was doing fifty-something, maybe sixty-something. I doubt a new Yamaha or something is geared any higher than the '77. I mean, they're both geared for motocross and I believe they both have 1:1 gearing in fifth. And as for blowing up, that wasn't what Maicos did. The Maico-Breako reputation was mainly associated with fragile rims, bolts that liked to rattle loose, pipes that liked to crack, and engine chains that needed to be replaced, but weren't. I could be wrong, but I don't think blowing up was as big of a concern in the days when the engines didn't rev as high. I'm not saying that low-revving is a good thing (it limits horsepower quite a lot) but it does reduce the physical speed of the moving parts.
As for my ass, believe me, that was the part that got numb. It felt like if I had stood up, the seat would start making a humming noise like a tuning fork. It was ridiculous. As you all know I love Maico, but credit where it's due to the Swedes, they made a bike that will break state-wide speed limits on just about any road in existence, and be smooth as a Cadillac while doing so. Aside from the Sand Spider, Maicos aren't really "Open Road" bikes.
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The TM's have the same problems with bolts vibrating loose.The 300's anyway
When they are new if you don't tighten the bolts after every hour of use you will loose some bolts.
Only have to do it for the first few hours then every thing will be fine.
My bike i bought second hand and the origanal owner forgot this as there are a couple of non standard bolts.
I think its the price you pay for something exotic.
The vibration is not something you notice while riding.
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I raced a 7 speed Sachs as a kid. On the high speed fire roads virtually any bike I saw ahead of me I could pass, it was scary hanging onto that thing at 90 mph.
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When in doubt, douse it in red Loc-Tite. That stuff will fix anything. I even started using it as toothpaste, and my teeth have never been straighter! Okay, that's a lie, but it would probably work better than any little metal-wire retainer!
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"Opfermanmotors-Who's George Marshall?Moreover,the fact that his ability or riding style better suits an old big bore 2t is just fine but it doesn't make it gospel to 99.9% of the rest of the population-myself included."
Oh the irony! This thread was started by you showing 1 person's video and opinion to end all Maico discussions!!
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What would be great is 100 gear bike where each gear adds 1 MPH to the previous.
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Kind of like an old Rokon RT340.
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100 gears would be too much shifting, but I don't think 6 is too much when your top gear gets you into three-digit territory. I know my Husky's first-second-third sequence is a little ridiculous, though. More gears than there are seconds spent shifting them.
Anyway, I've heard conjecture that a CVT (continuously variable transmission) would be an interesting idea fro a two-stroke. It would take a lot of the fun out of riding, but the bike could be held right at the peak-horsepower mark and accelerate like a rocket as the transmission changes for you, continuously. You could make a bike with no horsepower anywhere except one ridiculous spike on the dyno chart, and just whip everyone into a foam. It's an interesting idea, but like I say, I think it would take out a lot of the fun value.
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I apologize Turquine.You are correct again,I was just going on memory alone and obviously mines not as good as I thought it was.I do recall the KTM 495 test from 1981 & in the magazine it was quoted as being a "stock"KTM 495 and from what I vaguely remember about the KX-500 top speed run is it having some type of fairing in front of or on the handlebars of the bike for better aerodynamics in which case would'nt make it anymore or less modified than the KTM was."SORRY ABOUT THAT" :-*
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No problem, Maicoman. That there were two KX500s tested for those high speed runs threw me off a little too, when I first read the article and I wasn't exactly sure if they got any of those figures from the basically stock one, until I re-read it.
Like I said though, it's a pity they didn't try that high-speed run on some of the other European bikes. The '82 KTM 495 and mid '90s KTM 550 were considerably more powerful than the '81495, and I'm certain would beat any stock KX 500 in such a contest any day of the week. Ah, but nobody ever tried, unfortunately. I was merely pointing out that Kawasaki had made a few decent and notable machines, but not by any means claiming the KX could out-do any other machine, just any other Japanese machine to date, stock. Several European brands are or were clearly more potent.
Here's a link with the KX 500 drag-racing a high powered street racer and all things considered, does surprisingly well for a dirtbike. KX gets off to a bad start, first time, but much better on the 2nd run. I have no Idea of the modifications on either machine, but this is the kind of acceleration I liked as a desert rider!. -->
H2 Clubtreffen 2008 KR800 vs KX500 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYqlidrrSAE&feature=related#)
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Here's one of a YZ490 going up against a YFZ1000
YZ 490 Dragbike smokes YZF 1000cc Yamaha (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST4jjH4rPGc#)
you gotta love it ;D
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As far as Kawasaki's go the only Kawi that I've ever owned was a 3-wheeler.It was a 1984 or 85 "It's been so long ago" 250 Tecate 2-stroke.The radiator was in or on the front forks & it had a KX-250 engine & it was very fast & I always smoked the crap out of my buddy on his Honda 200x 4-choke!But that was pretty easy to do considering my 3-wheeler had a 250 2stroke engine & he only had a 200cc 4 choke!By the way the truth is I really despise 3 & 4 wheelers but at the time it was a great deal & the friend of mine that was selling it needed the money & I was rideless at the time so that Kawasaki 3-wheeler was better than nothing at all to ride!
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With proper gearing and tires a KX500 will easily do a low 12 second 1/4 mile pass. Top speed is related to the drag coefficient (wind resistance) and is a function of horsepower. In the old days it was said "you need 30hp tp go a 100 mph.".
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Actually, Sachs, I believe it would make it in well under 12 seconds. I can't post a link here, don't know if it's ever been on the web, but in 1985, just for the heck of it, Dirtbike magazine did an article pitting some hot (at the time) Honda street 500 against the '85 Honda CR500. They put street tires on the CR, raised the gearing, of course, and I believe put a wheelie-bar on it as well, but the motor was stock, as was the frame and suspension, carb, and everything else. It easily smoked the 500 streetbike and came in the high 11s in the quarter mile. The '85 Honda CR500 was one of the more powerful versions and would easily beat say a 2000 or 2001 CR500 which in comparison, were a bit de-tuned. Going by that, given the same mods, and a decent rider, the KX ought to do slightly better even than that bike. Anyhow, high 11s in the quarter mile should be easily achievable on a good running KX500 with a stock motor.
As to that YZ vid, that was most impressive. I wonder what motor modifications it had. Most of the 500 2strokes were very mildly tuned, compared to say, a 250, and I've always wondered what one could do when somebody really hopped it up. That YZ 490 video speaks volumes!
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Wow, I think that "high-powered street racer" that ran against the KX500 is actually a 750 two-stroke triple.
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"Opfermanmotors-Who's George Marshall?Moreover,the fact that his ability or riding style better suits an old big bore 2t is just fine but it doesn't make it gospel to 99.9% of the rest of the population-myself included."
Oh the irony! This thread was started by you showing 1 person's video and opinion to end all Maico discussions!!
I think you may have missed the "tongue-in-cheekiness" of this thread opfermanmotors :D Oh,the humanity..... ;)
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Hey SachsGS:
I read a couple of posts back you have had some TM experence.
Have you used Wossner pistons ?
If so how have you found them ?
Are they a 1 or 2 ring piston.
Was going to order 1 but it's a six week delay from the factory.
I have used Wossner's before in my KTM so know they are good.
I want a 2 ring piston to hopefully make the ring last a bit longer.
Cheers for any info.
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I spoke to my brother who has more TM experience then me and here is what he said:Wossner is a subsidiary of Mahle and is an excellent piston.As well, there are two TM cylinders and the cylinder that comes stock with the two ring piston will accept the single ring piston but not vice versa (something about the ring locating pin and snagging ports). If you need anymore info. don't hesitate to ask. Thanks.
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I thought all the 300's had 1 ring pistons.
Mine has the single ring.
I was after a bit more durability.
I did not know about 2 different cylinders.
I will have to try and find out more.
I looked up the Wossner website and they list a piston for my bike. Just dosn't say if 2 or 1 ring.
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The Maico thread has turned into a TM discussion. The irony is thick, creamy, and sky-blue.
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But it's the right shade of blue.
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hmmmm, would that be IT blue ::)
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The Maico thread has turned into a TM discussion. The irony is thick, creamy, and sky-blue.
It's amazing how the most beatiful flower can grow from the most disgusting manure pile isn't it? :D ;)
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All the intelligent people on this site(minus the Maico haters)know that without a doubt the best,fastest,most reliable bikes are the European brands!You all know which ones I'm talking about.KTM's,Maico's,Husqvarna's & TM's!!!!!!!!!and everyone of those brands build our beloved 2-strokes. ;)
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Older TM 300s had two ring pistons. From what I understand there are two powervalve configurations (hence two types of cylinders).Ah, come on, TMs are nice bikes.
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The only thing I have against TM is that their bikes have aluminum frames and they make a lot of four-strokes.
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Do Husqvarna make 4 strokes ?
I wouldn't bag on a brand cause they make 4 strokes.
Almost every one does it just makes business sense.
At least the Euro brands are actually putting development into 2 strokes.
Most of the 2010 models are 'New'.
Unlike Yamaha who havent done a thing for awhile. Brilliant bike that it is.
Am I forgiven for mentioning the 'M' word in the past. I think I should be because TM has a 'M' in it.
Oh shit sorry ford.
There we go again.
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I don't hate TM, I never said I did. I think they make wonderful bikes and are doing as much for the two-stroke cause as any other manufacturer. However, the fact that they make four-strokes is a fact I hold against them. Husqvarna doesn't get special treatment, I don't like that they make them, either. Same goes for Yamaha and KTM, and just about all the others.
Oh, and Maico doesn't exactly have a perfect record, either. Yamaha started their thing in the '90s, but check out what Maico thought about pulling on us in the '70s. I believe Opferman managed to find another shot of one of these, it's in one of his videos... somewhere.
(http://www.fmunsters.nl/motor/images/maico4stroke01.jpg)
Anyway, what I'm saying is, no one really has totally clean hands. However, that doesn't mean that everyone's got the same amount of blood on their hands. There is no black or white, only shades of grey. Except Honda, they're just black. :D
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But JETZ, 4 strokes are bikes too :D , and disliking a manufacturer for producing them is just wrong. 4 strokes have a place in this world, even on a motocross track, as long as it's on an even footing.
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That's shocking jetz!
Do you know what motor is in that thing ?
P.S. What have you got against Aluminum frames ?
They are not the work of the devil.
Lucky down here in NZ we only have bikes with Ali-min-ium frames not Alu-man-um !!!
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It's a bandwagon issue. The fact is, I don't think half of these guys would be making them if they were on an equal footing at all. Or at least, not in motocross form (I can understand four-stroke trail bikes). Just look at the history, when did they come back? Right when the rule change came in. Before that, no one even pondered entering a four-stroke into the top-level competition. Would they try it today, on equal ground? Yeah, probably. However, until the bandwagon is taken away and idea of building the better bike returns, I'm going to count jumping on the bandwagon as a tick in the "against" column. That goes for aluminium frames too, something that's been the topic of much debate, but which I classify as a bandwagon item that doesn't really improve performance (and certainly makes maintenance more of a pain.
Anyway, I believe that's a true Maico four-stroke motor. The cases are 1978-82 Maico cases, and check what's on the other side of the cylinder.
(http://www.fmunsters.nl/motor/images/maico4stroke03.jpg)
Looks pretty official to me, though I could be wrong.
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I thought all the 300's had 1 ring pistons.
Mine has the single ring.
I was after a bit more durability.
I did not know about 2 different cylinders.
I will have to try and find out more.
I looked up the Wossner website and they list a piston for my bike. Just dosn't say if 2 or 1 ring.
Yep all single ring as far as i know, i'm using a wossner piston next rebuild.
try motoxparts.co.nz they gave me a really sharp price on the TM kit, tell them callum put you onto them and i might get a discount next time haha.
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I have nothing against four strokes EXCEPT when: 1. they are given a 2 to 1 displac. advantage 2. they have only 2 rings, no piston skirt and a 10 hour maintenance interval ("ticking" timebomb). As for aluminum frames they seem to be reliable but they still make me nervous. I've replaced far too many mountainbike frames. I used to work a lot with aluminum structures and for a motorcycle frame I think chro-moly steel is still the superior material.
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I'd also like to add that Maico built some proto-type 4s in the late 70's using converted 2s bottom ends, think early Husky 4s. In the early 1990's Lorenze Merkle owned Maico and they actually sold some Rotax powered 4s Maico's, I saw one advertised used once.
Husqvarna produced decades of 4s motorcycles before they started manufacturing 2s in the mid 60's.These Husky 4s were quite successful both in road racing and offroad.
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Hey totalnz.
Hep i have buying parts of craig for awhile now.
6 week delivery for Wossner kit.
I was going to use a Wossner anyway.
I was just interested in what some other people thought.
It's always good to get different veiwpoints.
Might start a poll.
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I think I should be because TM has a 'M' in it.
Oh shit sorry ford.
There we go again.
WTF??? >:( Who just said that damn M word again?Don't make me come over there >:( :o :)
As for me,I like a steel single backbone frame and a 2t engine-BUT-if I couldn't get a steel frame I'd have an aluminum one and if I couldn't get a 2t I'd have a 4t.I've had both as I believe in giving something an honest try before condemning it.
I think to condemn a manufacturer because they are building what the majority of the public wants is a little ridiculous-just be happy they're still building what you want.
As for sticking to your guns,damn the torpedoes,full speed ahead-regardless of market demand...anyone remember the British motorcycle industry in the seventies?
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If you are coming over, make sure you bring some beer's.
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Guaranteed.Is Keiths ok? :)
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Crikies! I thought you guys knew what TM stood for? Tony's Maico!
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There's that M word again.I thought this was a family site :-\ :)
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(http://northphoenixagent.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/shocked-face-of-little-girl.jpg)
Now here's a shocker... I like four-strokes.. well at least for certain situations.
Personally I don't care if a company builds four-strokes or not... but I do care about the ones that build two-strokes. I'm not quite as militant about the whole thing as some folks are.
What really bugs me in motocross are the slanted displacement rules... but you guys already knew that...
That other "M" word...
(http://www.crossfitoakland.com/old_site/moo.jpg)
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I feel the same way as you do John, I fondly remember the old SL70, TT/XT 500, the 4 stroke nationals and all the other nostalgic 4 stroke stuff. As for the new 4 stroke wonders, they're cool looking sorta and they are dirtbikes, but I would never buy one and if someone gave me one I couldn't afford to ride it.
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if someone gave me one I couldn't afford to ride it.
I'd sell it.... :P :P :P
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Don't know if I would sell it, I'd have to stuff my YZ490 engine in it.
(http://articles.superhunkyforum.com/images/articles/12/PIG.jpg)
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aahhh, a classic picture :D
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That was a real $100,000 shot, right there. DB lost thousands in ad revenue over that picture. Then, when they gave the Elsinore a positive review, Honda ads just mysteriously started appearing again, like nothing had happened. Here's what it says in Monkey Butt.
"We realized that a trial bike was far different from a race bike, and treated each test bike with its intended purpose in mind. But when we received the Honda XL175 for a test, we concluded that this was a truly bad bike, no matter what its intended purpose was.
A four-stroke single, the Honda did nothing well. It was under-powered, heavy, came with wretched tires, had a grim suspension, carbureted like a frog was stuck in the intake, and handled like the frame had a hinge in the middle.
We all agreed that the bike was a pig. David got assigned the task of doing some kind of interesting photography for the test. When I told him he ought to photograph it in a pig-pen, his eyes lit up and he gathered up his beloved Canons and headed off to get the job done.
We got the proof sheets back from the lab and howled with glee! Swift had done it. He located a farm in Newhall, where the owner kept animals that were used in movies. The owner let David park the Honda in a pig-pen next to a large white sow, Nammed Dolly, and Dave ripped off a few rolls of film.
The lead photo we ran with the test had the pig staring intently at the Honda. to add fuel to the fire, I had the art department put an "oink" cartoon bubble out of the Honda's exhaust pipe, and a question mark "thought balloon" over the pig. We laughed our asses off at the finished product.
When the magazine hit the stands, the shit genuinely hit the fan! Honda went berserk and called the boss, bitching to high heaven. We got nasty letters from Honda dealers and ugly letters from people who truly liked that wretched little bike.
A meeting was held at our offices, and several Honda VPs showed up, looking very stern and sour-faced. I sat there, flanked by David and Pete, trying to look serious, while the Honda people called us un-professional and a detriment to the profession, and so forth.
Bill tried to calm them down, and even offered them a cover on the next issue. They didn't want any part of anything short of our asses in a sling. One of the Honda VPs said that the real motorcycle magazines conducted themselves in a dignified manner. I asked them what they thought a good motorcycle magazine was, and after thinking for a moment, he noted that Cycle Guide was a classy publication.
I cleared my throat. "We outsell those pompous assholes four-to-one on the news stands. If you mean classy as boring, then they're as classy as can be. We're Number One on the news stands because people believe what we say. And let's face it guys, the 175 is not your best effort."
After that, the conversation deteriorated into a yelling and shouting match, and the Honda people left in a huff. Three days later, we received a notice from their ad agency that all Honda ads were being cancelled because of a lack of professionalism on our part.
Bill wasn't too thrilled about that, but Dirt Bike was still packed with ads and the sales were increasing each and every issue. He had the golden goose laying eggs and realized it.
Some time later, we gave a Honda Elsinore a rave review, which it richly deserved, and suddenly Honda loved us dearly once again, and started running ads.
In fact, throughout the 1070 through 1974 era, we had to defend our position on certain bikes when we gave them a thorough roasting in a test.
Some of them readily to mind:
* There was the Yamaha SC-500, a 500cc two-stroke that seized constantly, handled like a bucket of shit, and had gruesome suspension components. We noted it was the same color as a turkey and handled about the same. Yamaha cancelled their ads, too, but renewed later on when they got a good write up on another bike that deserved it.
* Jawa/CZ went ballistic when we buried a CZ-250 enduro in the dirt, bolt upright like a crucifix, and mentioned that it was an embarrassing effort from the company that made the CZ MXers.
* When we tested the Spanish TT bikes, and noted that they blew up with regularity and had the quality control of a Chinese fire-drill, the phone lines damn near turned blue with calls from pissed-off people.
* We even ran into trouble with the legendary John Penton, when we tested the Penton Mud Lark (a 125cc Sachs-engined, Wassel-framed Trials bike) and called it "John Penton's Thousand-Dollar Blunder!"
* When we told the truth about how crummy Sachs gearboxes shifted, the dealers howled. But people who had to live with the miserable shifting knew we were telling the exact truth.
* Suzuki dealers told their potential TM-400 customers that we were full of shit. Riders who got injured on those bikes realized they should have listened to us.
* We called the Harley-Davidson 100cc Baja a "re-hashed Italian street bike," and Harley yanked their ads for a few months.
* Husqvarna came out with a real pile of crap in 1974 with their 450CR, and we told the readers that it was a bogus bike. Husky refused to give us any more bikes for testing, so we went out and bought one from a dealer to test it. After Husky changed bosses in the US, the new manager realized that it wasn't smart to feud with the press and made peace with us. At the same time, they also came out with the new Mag Huskies, which were good bikes. We gave them good reviews."
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Yep, Dirtbike and MXA were the ultimate reading material, wish I had all my old copies. Don't really bother with any bike magazines anymore
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I was at the airport last month and I was looking for some reading material for he flight. I searched for a good dirt bike magazine but alas I could only find street bike magazines. The best I could find with any type of dirt bike mention was CYCLE WORLD.
So I purchased this wretched piece of shit magazine and read their ill founded idiotic reviews of the latest and crappiest dirt bikes. Boy did it make my blood boil reading their lame ass review. It has many flaws starting with the opening paragraph.
"Don't let displacement fool you: Not only have 250cc four-stroke motocrossers edged 125cc two-strokes out of the picture, they've pretty much created a class of their own. Sure, the Lites class is still full of the youthful spirit associated with the 125cc bikes of the past but the performance is higher than ever..."
Ok, DON'T LET FUCKING DOUBLE DISPLACEMENT FOOL YOU INTO WHAT? THINKING THAT THEY HAVE AN ADVANTAGE? That fucking whole first sentence reads like it was written by a retarded sloth. The sentence makes absolutely no fucking sense in the sane world.
Now, it does get better because their reviews of these bikes essentially have turned "4 strokes" on their heads, IMHO. The reason is quite simple. Four strokes in the past were said and had a wide power band. They had pull from a low RPM to a high RPM, while not fast revving, they made good trail bikes for the semi-retarded. Reading these reviews about these new four strokes read like two strokes. Bravo Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, you've now turned four strokes into two strokes with less power than the eqvuilvent two stroke, more moving parts and yes, the same damn narrow power band that was the only thing four strokes were supposed to have an advantage with (with the execption of Maico, who got this right in a 2 stroke, they are still the most amazing engines ever produced and ever will be produced :)
Some memorable quotes from this article.
"Bottom end delivery is completely flat, no immediate hit; the engine only starts doing some serious buissness way past the middle of the rpm range."
"But the YZ doesnt quite cut it in the power department, needing more oomph everywhere".
"In engine performance, the KX-F has excellent midrange and top-end power but lacks a little punch right off the bottom where it lugs instead of having an abrupt pull."
My thoughts? Uh, sounds like a wanna be two stroke, isn't that a complaint they have against the two strokes? Narrow power bands? I know the reviews are ridiculous and not to be taken seriously but still sounds fishy to me. Oh and I LOVE the next quote.
"Okay, one tester that the engine was too abrupt in tis on/off throttle response. Sissy!"
Oh wow, another complaint they have about 2 strokes being too hard hitting and uncontrollable, however when it's in a crap ass four stroke they love it and think it's great. I remember a recent Maico article where they complained they peed their pants attempting to ride it and liked the panties of the sissy four strokes.
For me, I don't really give a crap about double displacement. These bikes are junk. They should have kept the old four stroke, they had purpose, they lasted longer for all their moving parts and they were different from two strokes. Now, they are just trying to be two strokes and failing miserably. Trash this crap and melt it down into connecting rods, pistons and bearings for the old Maicos and KTMs is what I say.
There was one interesting article though after this one that talked about how expensive maintaining a 4 stroke was and at the end had shit LULZ quote:
"Many an MX dad has asked his district referee if there's any way to bring back that simple machine, the two-stroke."
If anyone is interested, I will scan it this article for the LAWLZ.
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oh no, not a Cycle World MX bike test. the WORST dirt bike test of all American mags. i remember the last one i read back when the Honda was still making steel framed CR's. they said the CR250 was too fast.. what? are you kidding? are you all a bunch beginers? that's was the last time i ever looked at that mag again.
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"Many an MX dad has asked his district referee if there's any way to bring back that simple machine, the two-stroke."
If anyone is interested, I will scan it this article for the LAWLZ.
Could you please scan that... I'd love to read it. ;D ;D
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I agree totally Opferman.
I know plenty of people looking to get back into riding and are stumped as to what to buy.
Now i'm not talking about experts here, just guys wanting to go riding.
There are not alot of choices for the average bloke without much mechanical ability.
You can buy a gutless bike like a XR, DRZ, TTR and such which is stone reliable ( and heavy ) but gives you no thrill.
Next up the tree are bikes like the KDX200's,RMX's which once uncorked go pretty good and stone reliable.
KLX300's were popular but people soon get rid of them once they spend a few rides trying to get the bloody thing to go when hot.
I know, I had one a couple of years ago. >:D
Too many people are scared to buy a 250F because of the maintenance issue's. Guy's i know who can afford it, buy a 250F new and then get rid of it after 12 month's before something goes wrong.
Which leaves us with 2 STROKES.
The number of smokers is increasing all the time as people realise they can have the thrill and excitement in a cost effective bike.
I see more & more every ride from old WR's to newer bikes.
One of the most popular bikes for guy's over 40: 300 2 Strokes. ;D
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And the vintage scene is getting big, too. Where once you had to magically know a particular guru to find X part from Y bike of Z year, now you can just hit the internet and get practically anything you want, unless you're working on a KTM. And, from my experience, they tend to be pretty damn reliable, too. Probably not as much so as a 280lb trail turd, but certainly leagues better than any 250F. Oh, and let's not forget that something like half of the vintage bikes are open-classers, which are excellent for easy riding because they have so much low end to crawl around with.
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Here are the two articles from the Cycle World, I scanned them into a PDF.
http://www.maicowerk.com/Articles/PDF/cycleworld_4_stroke_crap.pdf (http://www.maicowerk.com/Articles/PDF/cycleworld_4_stroke_crap.pdf)
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"And big jump landings on the Honda feel more like your touching down on a bed of feathers"
WHAT? ::)
Sounds like a press release from Honda.
Strange bike test.
I like the last page " A look inside these phenomenal 250cc four-strokes. :'(
The last paragraph say's it all. " is there any way to bring back that simple machine, the two-stroke." ;D
Thanks for shareing that.