Post by: citabjockey on April 26, 2013, 07:45:23 PM
- IF Charles' riders are doing well on two strokes....
- IF there is a open class 2T motor in a modern chassis available...
- IF that motor is tuned to be effective (i.e. rideable - similar to a 450)...
- IF the potential rider can get some significant practice on it...
Would such a team be able to qualify in Las Vegas? would the team do well? THAT would give the TV folks something to watch, yes? I for one would be willing to donate something to such an effort.
What do you guys think?
Post by: Charles Owens on April 26, 2013, 08:52:33 PM
Post by: citabjockey on April 26, 2013, 10:27:19 PM
Grrrrr....
We considered it, MEC says it's invitation only.
Post by: Stusmoke on April 26, 2013, 10:31:40 PM
Post by: citabjockey on April 26, 2013, 10:40:30 PM
Think KTM380AF (or maybe 2013 380SX)
But if the promoters are in Kahoots with the 450 manufacturers then there is a snowball's chance of getting that invitation. *sigh*
I wonder of JS7 is looking for a bike for the event? ;-) He might be crazy enough to ride (and crash spectacularly) a 500.
I think a 500cc two stroke wouldn't even make the main. 450s have almost as much power, deliver it in a MUCH more usable, tractable and forgiving way and, no offence to charles and his team, but they have better riders on them. A 250 two stroke would have a much better chance. BETTER YET! A 350cc two stroke. Wish Jeram would pull his finger out with that new cylinder hes talking about
Post by: Stusmoke on April 26, 2013, 10:50:34 PM
450's don't have anywhere near the peak power of a CR500. Or KX500. But of course you are quite correct regarding it being tough to use.
Think KTM380AF (or maybe 2013 380SX)
But if the promoters are in Kahoots with the 450 manufacturers then there is a snowball's chance of getting that invitation. *sigh*
I wonder of JS7 is looking for a bike for the event? ;-) He might be crazy enough to ride (and crash spectacularly) a 500.I think a 500cc two stroke wouldn't even make the main. 450s have almost as much power, deliver it in a MUCH more usable, tractable and forgiving way and, no offence to charles and his team, but they have better riders on them. A 250 two stroke would have a much better chance. BETTER YET! A 350cc two stroke. Wish Jeram would pull his finger out with that new cylinder hes talking about
Not off the production line, no, but a full factory 450 has got to come close. If the AMA didn't sell out the motocross world, KTM probably would have continued with their 380sx. Would have been awesome to see.
Post by: vetman on April 26, 2013, 11:03:21 PM
Post by: citabjockey on April 26, 2013, 11:10:18 PM
Ok so this may in fact not happen.
BUT if a invitation could be had, what would be the best two stroke weapon to take to this gunfight? And keep the proposals realistic. No DI/Computer/ActiveSuspension futuristic nonsense.
I would have loved to see a 12+ year old honda CR500 out there with modern forks and shock on it. Maybe a head mod and some port work to make a reasonable powerband. Otherwise stock. To have such a bike finish in front of any 2013 450 would be just too funny to watch. And even more fun to watch it run away from the 450s on the long straights.
Post by: factoryX on April 26, 2013, 11:12:04 PM
Post by: factoryX on April 26, 2013, 11:12:51 PM
Post by: factoryX on April 26, 2013, 11:15:49 PM
Post by: citabjockey on April 26, 2013, 11:41:08 PM
Post by: _X_ on April 26, 2013, 11:59:21 PM
Ok, so to whom do we send a case of nice wine to get that invitation?wine? really citab? wine? lets send those bastards some growlers of ale like men would do! wine?
Grrrrr....We considered it, MEC says it's invitation only.
Post by: luthier269 on April 27, 2013, 12:00:54 AM
Post by: Charles Owens on April 27, 2013, 12:18:51 AM
Post by: citabjockey on April 27, 2013, 12:23:06 AM
Ok, so to whom do we send a case of nice wine to get that invitation?wine? really citab? wine? lets send those bastards some growlers of ale like men would do! wine?
Grrrrr....We considered it, MEC says it's invitation only.
Post by: citabjockey on April 27, 2013, 12:25:06 AM
If we had the chance we would more than likely run a 300SX, well built of course.
Post by: Charles Owens on April 27, 2013, 12:29:03 AM
Not sure if it's Outdoors or just SX points, I would assume SX. If that's the case, maybe next year!
Post by: _X_ on April 27, 2013, 12:34:53 AM
RacerX, we are dealing with money bags folks. Not plumbers. Chateau Lafite, goes over better (and greases the rails) better than Budweiser. Of course that case would cost more than the most expensive 450 to show.... Tisk Tick...Ok, so to whom do we send a case of nice wine to get that invitation?wine? really citab? wine? lets send those bastards some growlers of ale like men would do! wine?
Grrrrr....
now your vagina is talking citab.We considered it, MEC says it's invitation only.
Post by: Stusmoke on April 27, 2013, 04:21:44 AM
Stu, the cr500 had 65hp in 87 and tuned down to 55hp(Which is still more than any 450 off the line). 86/87 made the most power. A kx500 made like 67hp stock. They just did a land speed record with one not to long ago. No off the line the only thing better today on 450's is suspension and frame ergo. That's it, nothing else.
Exactly... it was detuned to 55. And the KTM 450sxf makes almost 57 off the showroom floor according to mxa. I dunno about the KX500 though. I realise its not comparable but I felt the need to point it out anyway.
Post by: 2T Institute on April 27, 2013, 04:46:52 AM
Post by: TMKIWI on April 27, 2013, 06:27:15 AM
I would think the best bike that might have a chance would be a well tuned 2013 KTM 380SX.60 + Hp and a good handling bike.
Post by: citabjockey on April 27, 2013, 06:31:09 AM
Post by: factoryX on April 27, 2013, 06:57:32 AM
Post by: factoryX on April 27, 2013, 07:01:39 AM
Post by: 2T Institute on April 27, 2013, 08:09:54 AM
Every 500AF/modern frame video I've seen has plastered 450-'s like they were nothing. Again, 57-60hp is about useless everywhere other than outdoors. I honestly can't believe these behemoths were set against 250 2 strokes, unreal. At this point 500 vs 450 is really the only fair race...
Show me the video where a 500AF beats a 450 with a National level rider.KX500's don't go near 70 HP standard. It's isn't about peak HP it's about torque(HP is torque X rpm) and the spread of torque, a HRC kit for a TRX450 gives about 60 or so hp with 37 odd ft/lbs torque and maintains that for something like 5 or 6000 rpm.
What needs to happen is the rate of change in the torque curve needs to be as gentle as possible
Post by: Stusmoke on April 27, 2013, 08:51:53 AM
Every 500AF/modern frame video I've seen has plastered 450-'s like they were nothing. Again, 57-60hp is about useless everywhere other than outdoors. I honestly can't believe these behemoths were set against 250 2 strokes, unreal. At this point 500 vs 450 is really the only fair race...
Show me the video where a 500AF beats a 450 with a National level rider.KX500's don't go near 70 HP standard. It's isn't about peak HP it's about torque(HP is torque X rpm) and the spread of torque, a HRC kit for a TRX450 gives about 60 or so hp with 37 odd ft/lbs torque and maintains that for something like 5 or 6000 rpm.
What needs to happen is the rate of change in the torque curve needs to be as gentle as possible
Its not often I agree with 2Tinstitute, but I definitely do here. You'll see it in every single class motocross has to offer. Equal displacement in the lites class WORKS! Why? rideability. NO motocross bike ever released is easy to ride (When compared to models released in the same category, at similar times). But 250 smokers and 250Fs are worlds apart. Take the 2013 KTM 250sxf for example, all you need to do is rev it out. It breaks 40 HP at like... 11 grand or something dont quote me there and stays that way till its 14000 rev limiter. Heres a guide on how to ride it fast: Rev, point, shoot. No questions asked.
If the 250sxf's powerband is like trying to smash a crab with a sledge hammer, then the 250sx is like trying to perform surgery on a dust mite. 250 two stroke power delivery is an intimidating thing; it hits hard, likes to step out from the rear and wheelie if you get lazy in your seat position. 250SXF might rev to the bloody moon, but it still hooks up, puts its power to the ground and doesn't make the rider replace their riding pants and seat every moto. Just leave it pinnned. 250sx? treat it with respect or you'll be having an intimate relationship with the dirt.
Every 500AF/modern frame video I've seen has plastered 450-'s like they were nothing. Again, 57-60hp is about useless everywhere other than outdoors. I honestly can't believe these behemoths were set against 250 2 strokes, unreal. At this point 500 vs 450 is really the only fair race...
IKR, even at their introduction, 450s had more HP, Torque and they were alot more rideable than 250s.