Post by: suzukipride on April 07, 2013, 03:13:03 AM
We have built sound barrier walls, not enough to satisfy. Now, sound testing is mandatory to ride and the level is 94!
My four strokes have no problem meeting this level. Even my 450 passes with a stock exhaust.
People are failing left and right with two strokes and it's unfair. Two strokes can be loud, standing next to them, but the sound is not traveling as far as the 250f and 450f bikes, which is the entire point to all this strict testing.
I recently put on an FMF fatty and Powercore II (not the shorty) silencer on my 2007 RM125. Has 6 hours of riding time on it. I'm REALLY hoping it passes. I guess if it doesn't, I will try the factory silencer and new packing but I really don't want to kill the extra power the fmf package produced. Any silencer recommendations for 94 db with minimal if any power loss?
Post by: msmola2002 on April 07, 2013, 03:21:26 AM
Post by: suzukipride on April 07, 2013, 03:21:43 AM
Post by: msmola2002 on April 07, 2013, 03:25:01 AM
Saw the fences and I know they have testing, shitty situation you guys have.
Post by: suzukipride on April 07, 2013, 03:29:32 AM
I'm trying to find the AMA sound testing guidelines. From what I have heard, yes, the new AMA standard is 94db, but I believe it is still 96db for the two strokes AND/or, tested at a different RPM than the 4 strokes.
If I can find these guidelines, I may be able to bring it up at a club meeting in honor of those who still want to ride our two strokes without completely killing the power output, while the four strokes continue to ride with further noise travel
Post by: Jeram on April 07, 2013, 04:00:34 AM
Failing that, for road worthy inspections on my road 2T's, there are a few tricks to get the detectable noise levels down.
The exhaust tip should face towards the ground which means the sound travels twice as far (pipe to ground to sensor) and encounters losses when it hits the ground and reflects, to further the effect of this mod, the downward facing spout does not need to be made of metal, you could use a silicon hose peice which would absorb more sound.
Thirdly: cut your expansion chamber open, extend the stinger inside the pipe so that the stinger tube opening is now several inches inside the pipe, not at the end. This decreases sound levels by a large amount and does not affect performance at all.
Get a good fabricator to take everyones exhaust system and carry out all the mods at the same time on everyones bikes.
Will make it nice and cheap and then there will be zero issues regarding noise tests!
Post by: cnrcpla on April 07, 2013, 04:08:38 AM
Just kidding, but the above posts are some good ideas. It's BS that people knowingly move next to a track and not think of noise. Its like moving next to a farm and hating the smell
Post by: vetman on April 07, 2013, 06:17:47 AM
Post by: 2T Institute on April 07, 2013, 10:50:09 AM
Put some steel wool in your silencer for scritineeringFew more of these posts and I won't need to type anything.
Failing that, for road worthy inspections on my road 2T's, there are a few tricks to get the detectable noise levels down.
The exhaust tip should face towards the ground which means the sound travels twice as far (pipe to ground to sensor) and encounters losses when it hits the ground and reflects, to further the effect of this mod, the downward facing spout does not need to be made of metal, you could use a silicon hose peice which would absorb more sound.
Thirdly: cut your expansion chamber open, extend the stinger inside the pipe so that the stinger tube opening is now several inches inside the pipe, not at the end. This decreases sound levels by a large amount and does not affect performance at all.
Get a good fabricator to take everyones exhaust system and carry out all the mods at the same time on everyones bikes.
Will make it nice and cheap and then there will be zero issues regarding noise tests!
Plus retard your ignition for a static test and put heat wrap on the front half of the pipe if it's a ride by test.
Main thing is you actualy realise that if you make less noise you get to keep your track. When housing extends close to circuits, developers and councils get greedy they will always say 'they are acting on complaints received' but I am suspecting this is a bit of a red herring. As just about EVERY circuit I have seen close quickly turns into a housing estate.
You can also purchase a dB meter very cheaply to conduct your own testing and if anyone does decide to turn up with a meter you have your own on hand. Once at a Speedway event at the Old Sydney Show ground (was used for regular speedway until the 70's) when leaving we came upon the EPA doing noise testing (bikes and cars had to be fitted with big mufflers) I asked the fellow what readings he was getting, he said the crowd noise registered the highest at over 100dB. I asked him how the speedway crowd noise is different to the crowd noise from the adjacent large football and cricket stadiums and did they ever do any noise testing then? His response was to pack up and leave !
Post by: SachsGS on April 07, 2013, 02:48:33 PM
Post by: eprovenzano on April 07, 2013, 04:18:15 PM
Sometimes I can't blame them... I'm sure they too get fed up with trying to please the powers to be.
Post by: kim wedding on April 07, 2013, 05:16:47 PM
If it's so easy to make a 2 stroke quietier and not lose performance WHY DOES'NT SOME ONE BUILD THESE PIPE'S FOR THE RIDER'S. It's a no brainer. Quieter bike's mean's more place's to ride or we find out it's an excuse to take the land for another subdivision. I've been told if you ceramic coat a pipe it make's it quieter and add's performance. You can wrap a pipe as well as add a pipe protector doesn't that make em quieter? Sound's like a business to me. Food for thought. KIM
Post by: suzukipride on April 07, 2013, 08:28:11 PM
We, as a club, have sacrificed our riding hours for these complainers. We have built quite an impressive sound wall with sound reflective material. We have implemented the 94 db sound test. Nothing seems to please =(
Post by: kim wedding on April 07, 2013, 09:16:15 PM
I know that thinking's caused this crap in the first place, but usually it's us the rider's getting crapped on. Sue the loser claiming they have affected you're mental health. If you can't ride you're track you're going thru depression and they caused it. Have another sue over their physical health deterating cause some loser's crying over alittle noise during the day. My point is when they have to appear in court constantly maybe alittle bike noise won't sound so bad.
If you can make you're bike or all the 2 stroke's quieter by the above mentioned post's DO IT..... Talk to some of you're club member's and test the option's and do a fix it post. You might help not just yourself but all 2 stroker's in the world. Still wish it was as easy as the crybaby shuttin up or a judge telling them to get some ear plug's and shuttin up. Jeram had some good idea's and i thru out a few and if they all work 2 stroke's might be super quiet. Just a thought GOOD LUCK no matter what you guy's do. KIM
Post by: 2T Institute on April 07, 2013, 09:25:34 PM
Post by: kim wedding on April 07, 2013, 10:14:19 PM
Post by: Jeram on April 07, 2013, 10:16:28 PM
Post by: kim wedding on April 07, 2013, 10:46:17 PM
?? The bike's are loud and anythinng that work's to quiet them down and not take away from their performance is awesome. I know of 2 guy's that had db snorkel exhaust add-on and both rider's said it took away from the top-end and over-rev same thing with the quiet q from fmf or the pro-circuit quiet exhaust. Which as far as i'm concerned is ruining the bike. KIM
Post by: rlaj1004 on April 09, 2013, 08:54:51 PM
I like your idea to fight back and go after the cry babies, I just wish in this day and age it would actually work. We continue to coddle the weak, the lazy, the whiners, the stupid and igonorant. We lower our standards every year for our childrens schools or entry to college, or to get in a career. Unfortunately IMO Motocross, dirt bikes are outside the norm so just by being a rider you are outside the accepted. Large business' win because it benefits the community, like airports. How many places around the country have you seen have encroached on an airport and then complain that the 747 landing in there backyard upsets there dog poopsie.
As you said this stuff just makes me mad.
Ok off my soap box..........got to go find my happy place now LOL
Keep fighting for your rights suzukipride
Post by: 2T Institute on April 09, 2013, 09:54:14 PM
Jeram you're idea of extending the stinger into the expansion chamber and cutting the sound level but not the performance sound's good ,but if it work's why doesn't someone already do this?
Mainstream aftermarket pipe manufacturers are solely interested in selling you a pipe.
Kim,
I like your idea to fight back and go after the cry babies, I just wish in this day and age it would actually work. We continue to coddle the weak, the lazy, the whiners, the stupid and igonorant. We lower our standards every year for our childrens schools or entry to college, or to get in a career.
Looks like you never considered that people raising concerns may actualy legitimate and well founded concerns have you? The club and members are far better to engage with residents instead of dimissing their concerns. Attitude and behaviour can make all the difference, things like the way you enter and leave the venue. Best think that a race track is a privelige not your right, even if the club/track owner is smart you can negotiate a solution where you agree to close a track and move to a better venue councils will probably even assist.
Post by: kim wedding on April 09, 2013, 11:59:42 PM
Showing the hater's how the exhaust emission's aren't pollution ,but perfume. The sound isn't bad it's beautiful. it's physically demanding , visually stunning and the greatest motorized sport on earth. RIGHT NOW. If 2stroke dirt bike's never get any quieter or cleaner than they are today they still don't make up enought pollution to hurt you're ear's or health.
In the country of freedom out of all those freedom's to be here, my favorite freedom is to ride a 2 stroke 125 moto-x bike and their's people who don't even see that as freedom. It would be nice if you could show the other side you're view on this subject and settle it in you're favor. GOOD LUCK ON RIDING ON YOU'RE TRACK!!!!!!!!KIM
Post by: Jeram on April 10, 2013, 12:27:57 AM
We have a similar situation where my work build a sewage treatment plan in the 1960s in the middle of nowhere and now have a century later houses back onto our propertly on all four fence lines.
You meet with them a few times per year so that both the club member delegated and the representatives of the community can discuss their concerns and issues and put things in place to resolve the issues.
Ei: you would do a presentation on the clubs meetings for the 3 months leading up to the committee meeting, showing all the good things the club does for the local community and the greater motorcycle community.
Then you present all of the sound level data for those same three months to show that it is all well within restrictions.
You will find that once this happens, if anyone outside of the CLC complains to the police, you can not only present them the sound data but also state that representatives of the community which were nominated by the community are satisfied that the sound levels from the track are well within both the EPA and council guidelines.
Post by: 2T Institute on April 10, 2013, 04:50:16 AM
The club will also have to look at things they can and can't control. Such as you cannot stop housing development unless they by up the land around the track, it's wasteful and counter productive to rail agsinst anyone who bought a cheap house, near the race track. You can modify behaviours , and stop noise and dust.
The situation is a bit like live music venues, lots of times the the complaints against live music venues were not about the music in the venue but more about groups of people leaving the events late at night usualy drunk, then the surrounding residents get fights, bottles smashed, people pissing in their yards, vandalisim etc etc. If that was a regular occurance in your street would you be happy? What would you say to someone who said "Well you should have known when you bought a house near the venue".
Post by: Jeram on April 10, 2013, 08:55:52 AM
Post by: rlaj1004 on April 10, 2013, 02:48:17 PM
I started to respond to your comments and decided there is no point, as it is obvious how you think.
As Kim stated, good luck in the future to continue to ride on you're track
Post by: Charles Owens on April 10, 2013, 03:09:47 PM
Post by: 2T Institute on April 10, 2013, 10:08:04 PM
2T
I started to respond to your comments and decided there is no point, as it is obvious how you think.
As Kim stated, good luck in the future to continue to ride on you're track
What's "obvious"? These days if you wish to stick your head in the sand and ignore complaints about noise your doomed. Blaming the complainant isn't going to save a track is it?
94 DB is crazy. The Daytona YZ 250 put out 111 DB for AMA sound check with the FMF pipe and shorty.
This track isn't Daytona, 111dB is a very generous level , 96dB is easily achievable without performance loss.
Post by: _X_ on April 10, 2013, 11:16:05 PM
Post by: factoryX on April 11, 2013, 05:22:28 AM
Post by: msmola2002 on April 11, 2013, 06:01:04 AM
Says on that diagram it is from the washington marina - A quick google finds one in DC, across the potomac from ronnie reagan airport.
It's about 2 miles northeast of the runway (using my fat fingers to approximate distance on google maps). Assuming the plane does not turn and stays at the approx north south bearing of the runway, it is probably half a mile east of the plane taking off at whatever altitude the plane is at so that may be up to 3/4 of a mile away.
The 130 is probably next to the thing.
the 104db figure from gravelly point is a park that starts about 500' from the end of the runway, so pretty close, depending on where they put the meter.
and for racerx - Manowar, viking metal rockers formerly of auburn NY, (home of frozen ocean mx, useless tidbit of the day) has recorded noise levels of up to 139dB.
Post by: rlaj1004 on April 11, 2013, 02:17:54 PM
Looks like you never considered that people raising concerns may actualy legitimate and well founded concerns have you? The club and members are far better to engage with residents instead of dimissing their concerns. Attitude and behaviour can make all the difference, things like the way you enter and leave the venue. Best think that a race track is a privelige not your right, even if the club/track owner is smart you can negotiate a solution where you agree to close a track and move to a better venue councils will probably even assist.
[/quote]
What's "obvious"? These days if you wish to stick your head in the sand and ignore complaints about noise your doomed. Blaming the complainant isn't going to save a track is it?
2T Institute
Actually I owe you half and apology, I read your post as directed at me as ( Like the way you enter and leave ) kinda skipped over the venue part.
The part where you said I never considered other people raising legitimate concerns is wrong. I do and will but in a case like this, which may be total speculation, it seems that they have done more than enough to cut down noise for the NEW homeowners. But like I said people buy houses near existing business's, airports, factories, even warehouses and then bitch about the noise, traffic etc. In my opinion they shouldn?t have bought there or they can move.
I have seen this happen, there was a family owned track a couple of hours from me. Was in the family for a couple of generations, the city moved in around and the new homeowners started complaining. The owners shortened hours, built fences to no avail. They closed the track a few years ago. You talk about rights, what about the rights of that family to operate and business. In that case a few homeowners put pressure on the city council to take away the rights of one family. Having a track to ride is not a right or a privilege, it?s a business that either benefits the community or not, I can chose to go or not, like shopping at Wal-Mart instead of the local Mom and Pop.
We as a group have very little recourse when someone starts to complain, unless you have people on the city council that ride, your response to complaints will fall on deaf ears. I doubt they will help move an motocross track and that is hardly a viable option. The tracks around me are 105 acres, 260 acres. So the owners that have invested time, money and sweat get to pack up, try and find a large section of land to spend thousands if not tens of thousands to move their business because some ill informed group of people purchased and house on the edge of their existing business. Our tracks have spent years adding to the soil, sand, mulch to get the dirt to be the best it can be.
Removing rocks, stumps, drilling wells for water, tanks for storage, septic tanks and drain fields for the bathrooms.
Really, move the track?
?And it is not about blaming anyone, it is about turning the tide back on the complainers. The track was in operation prior to the new housing. The rights of the owners of the track should be considers, the revenue the track brings in to the area with the riders. How loud really are the bikes, is the complainer a grumpy *&^& that has a hard on for motorcycles in general? ( if you have ever road street bike, trained on a road bike you would have experienced drivers who don't want to share the road)
My point was really was this:
By coddling the whiners we empower them, we need to fight back to keep our tracks open. Continuing to quiet down our bikes and build soundproof fences and ignoring the fact that the track benefits a large group of people and the community is back-ass-wards.
As long as the bikes are within reason, noise wise, and Suzukipride has made and effort to help with the noise, which he has, enough is enough.
Post by: kim wedding on April 11, 2013, 05:05:45 PM
A person can pay money to go to a rock concert and have ringing in their ear's for a day or two after the concert. I mean real hearing damage. I've never had ringing in my ear's from a m-x bike's. As loud as bike's are their not excessively loud and again i wish that when people complain about dirt bike noise the city council or judge would tell them to buy some earplug's and get over it. I personally believe when someone want's to infringe on my right's they should lose all their right's. I'm willing to bet if this happen just a couple of time's the crybabies would stop crying about the sound from dirt bike's. One question when did it happen that every freedom we have is up for debate or confication? People that hate dirt bike's or freedom are the one's taking them from us. What ever happen to LAND OF THE FREE HOME OF THE BRAVE.... KIM
Post by: rlaj1004 on April 11, 2013, 05:37:35 PM
Post by: kim wedding on April 11, 2013, 08:44:50 PM
I told you this post ril'es me up!! I mean some freedom's we all share, but the one's that each man carries in their selv'es are the sweetest one's and most precious to some of us. I COUNT MYSELF AMOUNG THEM.KIM
Post by: rlaj1004 on April 12, 2013, 02:18:12 PM
I agree, to me this is the same crap we deal with at work, or schools, society, One idiot does something well idiotic and we get a knee jerk reaction. You see it all the time.
We (society) have decided not to point fingers at the offenders, OMG don't punish the individual, change the rules so that moron doesn't have the chance to do that again. Restrict everybody
I do think a track can produce alot of revenue for a city, depending on the location. Property taxes would definitly be higher for a 1-200 acre track then MCd's. And on busy weekends, every local resturant has a stream of trucks with trailers/bikes runnnig through them. But I live in a small town area, it probably wouldn't have the same impact on larger cities.
Back to the original post, Suzuki, have you gone into the complainers neighborhood and listened, or even took some sound readings yourself. Hard data is hard to refute. If you end up in city meetings with data that says, our tracks are quieter than than the mower he is using it may show he is just a wanker ( always wanted to use that word )
I like the "EPA", you have a sign up sheet, but (corupt politicians), isn't that an oxy moron, just politicians will do, its the same thing.
Post by: motoxr377 on April 13, 2013, 06:48:40 PM
yes, but at what distance?
Says on that diagram it is from the washington marina - A quick google finds one in DC, across the potomac from ronnie reagan airport.
It's about 2 miles northeast of the runway (using my fat fingers to approximate distance on google maps). Assuming the plane does not turn and stays at the approx north south bearing of the runway, it is probably half a mile east of the plane taking off at whatever altitude the plane is at so that may be up to 3/4 of a mile away.
The 130 is probably next to the thing.
the 104db figure from gravelly point is a park that starts about 500' from the end of the runway, so pretty close, depending on where they put the meter.
and for racerx - Manowar, viking metal rockers formerly of auburn NY, (home of frozen ocean mx, useless tidbit of the day) has recorded noise levels of up to 139dB.
Post by: opfermanmotors on April 13, 2013, 11:41:14 PM
They do it because of the perseption is that they can and they don't like the dirt bikes to begin with. I've been in neighborhoods where a train was next to the houses, the houses completely rock and shake when the train goes by and sometimes they go by at 5am. People there suck it up or don't buy a house there.
Post by: riffraff on April 14, 2013, 02:05:56 AM
Post by: factoryX on April 14, 2013, 02:11:38 AM
Post by: bearorso on April 19, 2013, 06:50:29 AM
But, that's besides the point. The noise standards / testing, is what has been set by whoever it is that set them.
So, meet them. Unless the standards 'they' require, are outrageous. Give 'em an inch, and they'll take a mile? Yes, it can happen. But, "give them an inch, then use the results to stop them from taking a mile", is a pretty good tactic. Meet a reasonable standard, then fight the ****ers from a stronger stand point. It can, and does, work, with dealing with a lot of mongrels that want to control things. It's worked over the years, and very recently, for my friends and I, with regards to dealing with councils and environmental 'police'.
A quieter muffler required - fit one.
A lot of extra noise beyond what is coming from the end of the muffler, comes from resonance within / of the expansion chamber. Pipe guards - fitted properly, can attenuate a lot of noise.
An old tube, over the chamber, can seriously reduce chamber noise. Daggy?, shit yes but cheap, and with a bit of experimentation, not that bad in producing other pollutants, such as burning rubber.
Things that vibrate - there's a Lot of them on a bike, especially a non counter balanced 2t - such as exhaust springs / loose pipes, even the shock spring . Just revving your bike, and looking at the shock spring can have you seeing big vibration / hearing a lot of noise from said spring. Just rotating it can help, before changing pre-load (think of the spring as a tuning fork, and you'll have a basic understanding of it, and it's 'frequency changes - of course, set it back to what it Should be, if you need to take the extra, or less, pre-load route, when you actually ride the bike). Foam in the air box vents, can lower noise, without messing with your bikes power - intake noise, is a big component of noise output.
As for the "idea" of the extended stinger into the convergent cone of the chamber - well howdy - it's been done for years, by those of us that know of it, and, funnily, it's recommended in a couple of "old school" 2t tuning books that come in for a fair bit of ridicule, from a few here, quite often. I think you'll find it in Gorden Jennings book, in the section on exhausts. It works well - I've done exactly that to most of my 2ts I've had over a fair few decades now. Even if they have been "track only" bikes, be they dirt, or tar. I much prefer to have a quieter bike, over a louder one. Anyone with a bit of grey matter between their ears, usually does.
Post by: Jeram on April 21, 2013, 09:38:38 AM
As for the "idea" of the extended stinger into the convergent cone of the chamber - well howdy - it's been done for years, by those of us that know of it, and, funnily, it's recommended in a couple of "old school" 2t tuning books that come in for a fair bit of ridicule, from a few here, quite often. I think you'll find it in Gorden Jennings book, in the section on exhausts.
Yes it is from Gordon Jenning's book.
Whether he was actually the first person to apply such a technique, I would doubt it but thats not the point.
But I suppose what your trying to say is that I can't pick and choose sections of his book based on objective thinking and descision making to decide what is fact and what is non-fact?, I have to either believe in it all or believe it none of it?
Thats starting to sound more like religion than science!
The great thing about science is that it is natural for theories and ideas overtime to be superseeded, with the previous knowledge being ruled obsolete by more recent studies and reports.
But just because a large portion of his book has been superseeded over time by more modern technologies does not mean that there aren't pages in the book which are still correct and useful today.
The reason the stinger pipe theory is still relevant today is that the theory behind it is very basic.
Why reinvent the wheel?
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on April 21, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
Now I don't know what the required number is anymore but it just shocked me they were so close. And my guess is that the 500 prolly never had the silencer repacked!
I think maybe someone should do a sound check at the start and see what 40 450Fs reach before they let off for the first turn.
In your case though, no matter what, these neighbors would complain though even if it was electric motorcycles. Crowds, annuoncers, traffic, trash, all piss off the "locals". The sound is just easy to get you on.
Post by: Jeram on April 23, 2013, 09:22:38 AM
Keep in mind that the decibel scale is not linear it is exponential
If my math is still up to scratch there is a 151% difference between a bike with 108dB and a bike with 112bB0.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on April 23, 2013, 09:31:17 AM
The other thing - as others have pointed out is how the sound carries. The lower frequencies (deeper tones) of the 4-strokes seem to carry farther and penetrate obstacles better - like house walls.