Post by: SachsGS on February 17, 2013, 03:30:12 PM
Please note that this is a Japanese Suzuki EFI 2T. The owner said the motor was very smooth, very powerful and fuel efficient. Electronics are cheap , the motor was volume wise almost as compact as a 250 4T and it really got me thinking. Imagine if Suzuki built a new RM250 using this technology, it could be as tiny as a 125 and would only cost a fraction of what it costs to produce a 4T. They could do it right now.
Post by: eprovenzano on February 17, 2013, 04:02:58 PM
OH that's right, they have warehouses full of unsold RMZ's...
Post by: beaner on February 17, 2013, 04:46:14 PM
Post by: ford832 on February 17, 2013, 05:38:12 PM
That was the first year of Bombardiers SDI.That's why I shake my head when people go on about the mysterious DI that will never happen.It's been commonplace and proven in snowmo's and outboards for years.
The twins are compact of course there's no internal trans or clutch involved.600cc snowmo's have been floating around the 110hp figure for years.
My last sled before the current yamaha was a Cat ZR900 and stock was good for 150 hp.As completed,it was slightly over 165.I had the dyno sheet somewhere.....
Anyway,the technology is there-and has been for years.Someone just needs to step up.
Post by: Lolerbabop on February 17, 2013, 09:09:39 PM
DOSH.
Post by: ford832 on February 18, 2013, 11:54:16 AM
It would cost no more than what it cost to FI a 4t,but unless the # of units sold approached the 4t level,itlikely wouldn't be worth it.
Maybe some are waiting for BRP's patents to come off.I know Polaris traded some tech with Ski-Doo.I forget who was first with the electro reverse(just electronically adjust the timing to spin the engine backwards-much better than gears etc.)I'm thinking maybe Polaris traded Perc for some DI tech or something.
Regardless,it's here,has been for years(even in outboards so size is no issue)is proven and bulletproof.
Who will be the first? Yamaha sometimes pulls something like this out of their hat but I'm betting the bean counters wouldn't allow it.More likely would be one of the small Euro's for a test bed.Maybe Husky now or GasGas.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on February 18, 2013, 01:37:03 PM
Post by: ford832 on February 18, 2013, 01:43:37 PM
The problem is,it's not a retrofit,it's an internal engine design.The biggest part would probably be a CDI sized ECU.
Post by: SachsGS on February 18, 2013, 03:10:08 PM
All the 2T German micro cars of the 50s had the ability to spin the motor the other way to back up.
Post by: citabjockey on February 18, 2013, 04:10:42 PM
I'm thinking more 800cc dual sport (seriously).
All the 2T German micro cars of the 50s had the ability to spin the motor the other way to back up.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on February 18, 2013, 04:49:29 PM
Seriously? a 800cc, 270 lb 160+ HP dual sport? You could never crack the throttle over 1/4 in the dirt!
Oh yes I would!!!
Post by: ford832 on February 18, 2013, 05:32:18 PM
Seriously? a 800cc, 270 lb 160+ HP dual sport? You could never crack the throttle over 1/4 in the dirt!
Oh yes I would!!!
Damn straight.
I think the only relevant question with DI is why anyone would want to bother.4t's are accepted and enough time has passed that many young people coming up to the pros don't know anything else-and wouldn't want to ride a 2t anyway other than just to try it.
I'd be interested to know the average age of all site members here.I'd be willing to bet it's not 18-25.
Post by: citabjockey on February 18, 2013, 06:08:11 PM
Seriously? a 800cc, 270 lb 160+ HP dual sport? You could never crack the throttle over 1/4 in the dirt!
Oh yes I would!!!
Damn straight.
I think the only relevant question with DI is why anyone would want to bother.4t's are accepted and enough time has passed that many young people coming up to the pros don't know anything else-and wouldn't want to ride a 2t anyway other than just to try it.
I'd be interested to know the average age of all site members here.I'd be willing to bet it's not 18-25.
Yes, I would think the average age exceeds that by a few years (decades?). Probably right in between vital and "steamenginemotocross.com"
Post by: ford832 on February 18, 2013, 06:50:44 PM
Post by: motoxr377 on February 18, 2013, 11:32:10 PM
Post by: motoxr377 on February 18, 2013, 11:33:40 PM
Post by: citabjockey on February 19, 2013, 01:36:40 AM
So don't give up on us younger guns!
Post by: SachsGS on February 19, 2013, 03:08:51 AM
Now where's that bottle of Geritol?
Post by: citabjockey on February 19, 2013, 03:55:35 AM
Now where did I put that steam boiler over pressure relief valve?
As quickly as the switch was made to 4T$ the industry could switch back.
Now where's that bottle of Geritol?
Post by: TMKIWI on February 19, 2013, 07:13:24 AM
I think a bunch of the current 4T dominance is driven by a "conventional wisdom" that 4T engines are the only way to meet various governmental environmental pollution regulations -- both those in place now and those that will *probably* show up in the coming years.
That is the problem with 2 strokes. The public have this perception that they are "dirty" engines, and it was easy for the manufactors to push the 4 stroke.
The TRUTH is most modern DI 2 strokes have LESS polution then 4 strokes.
It is very hard to change that perception.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on February 19, 2013, 09:34:49 AM
If your ad campaign was "With the new EStuff technology, our advanced 2T engine with our patented bunghole exhaust for a quieter ride is 4x cleaner and twice as much power and the next leading engine at twice it's capacity..." Followed up by "...and we've won championships in America and on the world stage..." You'd be the leading seller by the end of the year.
Marketing sux but if you've got the microphone, that is all the sheeple will hear.
Post by: citabjockey on February 19, 2013, 05:33:21 PM
BUT -- a manufacturer would be spending millions to develop (and eventually race) said bike and they are already spending lots of cash to keep the 4T development going to keep the existing bikes competitive. If the economy doesn't provide for more $$$ then nobody is going to step up to the two stroke plate and execute that plan. If it was easy it already would have been done on bikes.
KTM might but they seem to be doing quite well with the existing designs -- i.e. not spending boatloads on brand new 2T technology. Although rumor has it that they have a DI motor ready to rock and roll when Euro pollution regs would require it.
Post by: motoxr377 on February 20, 2013, 12:00:48 AM
Mighty fine systems.
Post by: Stusmoke on February 20, 2013, 12:16:01 AM
Post by: TMKIWI on February 20, 2013, 05:34:26 AM
It is not hard to change the perception if the manufacturers WANT to sell it. Advertizing is everything - and I mean everything. Look at Europe (damn hippy tree huggers), they mostly drive (clean) diesels. Yes that is due to diesel being cheaper than petrol but a diesel is CLEANER than a petrol yet you cna still see the particle emissions.
If your ad campaign was "With the new EStuff technology, our advanced 2T engine with our patented bunghole exhaust for a quieter ride is 4x cleaner and twice as much power and the next leading engine at twice it's capacity..." Followed up by "...and we've won championships in America and on the world stage..." You'd be the leading seller by the end of the year.
Marketing sux but if you've got the microphone, that is all the sheeple will hear.
Thats not true I am afraid.
BRP spent tonne's of money on marketing the ETEC's about their advantages. And they were Lighter/less emmissions/more torque/less maintanance etc.
People still buy more 4 strokes.
Boats might not be dirtbikes but the same principles apply. More power for less weight.
I should know as I sold them for 10 years.
People are easily brain washed.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on February 20, 2013, 10:12:25 AM
Post by: SachsGS on February 20, 2013, 03:10:52 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on February 20, 2013, 10:10:46 PM
Post by: citabjockey on February 21, 2013, 04:29:25 AM
People in my area have reverted back to 2T snowmobiles, with the odd guy building a 250+ hp 4T Yamaha hill climbing monster.
Post by: TMKIWI on February 21, 2013, 07:40:05 AM
I'm not arguing with you TMKIWI. However, I think that people prefering to continue to buy the 4strokes might have a bit to do with price and brand. Most people who buy boat engines are brand loyal...like pickup truck owners or NASCAR fans. All the talk in the world will not change some red-necks opinion.
Not quite vintage.
Back in the early 2000's when all the enviromental scare started, most of the outboards were 2 stroke but you could buy 2 strokes/DI 2 strokes & 4 strokes from most manufactors.
2 strokes were still the biggest seller at the start of the decade as 4/S & DI's were 30% dearer, but as it became clearer that 2 strokes were going the be fazed out and petrol prices went up, all the marketing pushed "clean" technology.
Yamaha buyers could buy a 2 stroke, a HPDI 2 stroke or a 4 stroke. Most ended up buying the 4 stroke.
It was easy to convince the public that 4 strokes were clean because everyone has a 4 stroke car,lawnmower etc.
Not saying it is all relevent, just saying what I have observed from another industry.
Not all companies are blind tho. I still find it funny that in 06' Mercury were going to drop the Optimax range (Orbital injection) for the new "designed by Cosworth" (spent millions) Verado supercharged 4 stroke. After magazine test's failed to hide that it was 20% + worse on fuel then their Optimax , they changed their mind. You can still buy an Optimax today.
A DI 2 stroke is quite a wonderful engine when you need power, economy and lightness.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on February 21, 2013, 09:40:48 AM
Of course, DI 2T a good alternative but when the changes started, we didn't have a reliable DI system in place (or the techs to work on them!) for several years. By then...people had committed to what they knew.
Post by: SachsGS on February 21, 2013, 03:12:48 PM
Post by: ford832 on February 23, 2013, 07:34:43 PM
Those 250+ hp Yamaha sleds are turbo charged and seem to last about as long as a fruit fly.
Hard to believe that when you wring every bit of power out of an engine you make it fragile.
Fwiw,the Yamaha's are basically an R1 streetbike engine.http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/sno/advantage/page3.aspx
Post by: Jeram on April 16, 2013, 12:14:39 PM
a jetski motor isnt nearly under the same loads as a bike.
all it has to do is spin a propeller
Post by: Jeram on April 16, 2013, 12:18:35 PM
once you add an alternator, a primary drive, a clutch and a 6 speed gearbox, that suzuki motor wont be any more compact than a Yamaha RZ/Banshee motor.
You can easily and cheaply get that much power from a banshee/RZ motor, people have added EFI to them in the past with kits you purchase over the internet, and they fit into MX bike frames as done by a few people already.
In saying all of this, I am still trying to convince Neil to merge a sled motor with a 600 sport bike gearbox so that it will drop straight in, because I do see the benefits of a modern/reliable big bore EFI 2T.
Post by: Jeram on April 16, 2013, 12:31:40 PM
MXZ800 snowmobile cylinders bolt straight onto it, add an off the shelf billet clutch, off shelf billet crank and a 6 speed gearbox and your good to go
Post by: SachsGS on April 16, 2013, 03:31:50 PM
Post by: factoryX on April 16, 2013, 04:26:11 PM
Post by: Jeram on April 17, 2013, 02:33:58 AM
Cylinder spacing can vary from std to 150mm to support sled cylinders or 98mm bore racing cylinders (imagine a 98x98mm twin)
Then to add to this you can have it made as a triple or four cylinder.
I would love to have a 120 degree 1263cc triple utilising a billet crank clutch and gearbox.
As much as a 2000cc four cylinder apeals, I think it would be too much for anyone accept for a promos drag bike.
Post by: shanes on April 17, 2013, 06:17:52 AM
Post by: Jeram on April 17, 2013, 07:29:40 AM
and being a jetski motor Im not sure that it would have edqaute cooling capacity for non aquatic duties? how does a jetsky cool the motor? through a very efficient heat exchange?
How much power those 1200's put out standard?
From what I've heard those monster 1000cc twin banshees are around the 200hp mark, but you never know because those banshee riders are always full of **** haha
Id imagine itd vibrate enough to satisfy any woman?
Post by: shanes on April 17, 2013, 07:34:42 AM
would need a clutch and gearbox added to make it any good for what I want.
and being a jetski motor Im not sure that it would have edqaute cooling capacity for non aquatic duties? how does a jetsky cool the motor? through a very efficient heat exchange?
How much power those 1200's put out standard?
From what I've heard those monster 1000cc twin banshees are around the 200hp mark, but you never know because those banshee riders are always full of **** haha
Id imagine itd vibrate enough to satisfy any woman?
they are water cooled , i have a 1100 cc in my ski , Dassa said around 180 - 200 HP depending on squish and try of fuel im running , top end power from 1000-1200 about the same it the torque and hit that you notice
Post by: factoryX on April 17, 2013, 09:57:42 AM
Post by: Jeram on April 17, 2013, 10:21:21 AM
http://blog.caranddriver.com/lemons-goodbad-idea-of-the-week-two-stroke-miata/
Post by: factoryX on April 17, 2013, 02:39:36 PM
Post by: Uniflow on April 17, 2013, 09:10:45 PM
Post by: Jeram on April 18, 2013, 02:24:28 AM
If I could get my hands on a 3L V6 two stroke engine Id add methanol and nitrous and probably build a top fuel bike
Post by: Uniflow on April 18, 2013, 03:27:20 AM
Post by: Jeram on April 18, 2013, 05:46:41 AM
Post by: bearorso on April 19, 2013, 10:30:38 AM
what about using Dassa crank and cylinders , here is a 1200 cc billet engine
Here's a start :
http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qmca2a6
It's always a bit scary when you se P.O.A.
But, there's plenty of high end gearboxes and clutches, made by quite a few companies, for non unit construction engine / gearbox usage. Chain / belt primary drive, take your pick.
The only limitation, is your imagination, and depth of your wallet.
Post by: Jeram on April 19, 2013, 01:23:05 PM
what about using Dassa crank and cylinders , here is a 1200 cc billet engine
Here's a start :
http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qmca2a6
It's always a bit scary when you se P.O.A.
But, there's plenty of high end gearboxes and clutches, made by quite a few companies, for non unit construction engine / gearbox usage. Chain / belt primary drive, take your pick.
The only limitation, is your imagination, and depth of your wallet.
Theres not much difference between these and aftermarket gearboxes.
You can get billet/forged harley 6 speed transmissions for under $1500 that arnt made in china.
are made for 128"+ 140hp motors.
The big issue, is packaging and the fact that once you pay for the 1500 dollar gearbox, get all the custom linkages, pulleys and cogs made to fit it all professionally crammed it into a chassis, for the same cost you could have done the following
- taken a late model sport bike transmission,
-made a mold of it and simply lopped off the front part (cylinders)
-and added the mold of a snowmobile case to the front (over simplified the process yes I know)
-then you same much time and money with engine mounting as you can now mount your big bore sled engine directly into the chassis which the engine came from.
I suppose its the same problem but two very different solutions, both costing the same but the deciding factor being where your skill sets lie. (or the skill sets of people you know!)
You actually almost gave me a brilliant idea with your post though,
I thought that a buell would be an amazing donor bike as the Harleys had external gearboxes! but sadly the buell motor has an intergral transmission which is a pitty.
Would have been amazing to mount a sled motor into the XB firebolt chassis.
Imagine how light and nimble it would have been.
Got any ideas for suitable donor bikes which already have external gearboxes?
Post by: TMKIWI on April 20, 2013, 04:19:41 AM
If I could get my hands on a 3L V6 two stroke engine Id add methanol and nitrous and probably build a top fuel bike
Plenty of 3L V6 outboard engines around.
Post by: factoryX on April 20, 2013, 04:24:00 AM
Evinrude 250hp
Post by: TMKIWI on April 20, 2013, 05:55:39 AM
Na, too small.
Johnson 4L V8. 300Hp.
Post by: factoryX on April 20, 2013, 07:31:02 AM
I heard those motors were a bit on the heavy side? Any details? I know with a prop the v6 weighs like 400-500lbs but the motor alone is about 200-300. A few drag builds I've seen with the v6 were pushing 400+hp easy.
Post by: TMKIWI on April 20, 2013, 09:06:59 AM
I have only worked on 1. Wish I took a video of it running in my test tank. Doh.
They were 2 x 2L looper engines cast together. I think they had a few issues with the crank being so long.
The sound of a V8 2 stroke running on a test prop at 5k rpm is something every petrol head needs to hear.
I think they weighed about 260kg. Still less then a similar 4 stroke which are over 300kg.
Post by: TMKIWI on April 20, 2013, 09:21:49 AM
374 HP.
Post by: factoryX on April 20, 2013, 09:44:18 AM
Skip to 5:11
Post by: Jeram on April 20, 2013, 11:23:32 AM
I heard those motors were a bit on the heavy side? Any details? I know with a prop the v6 weighs like 400-500lbs but the motor alone is about 200-300. A few drag builds I've seen with the v6 were pushing 400+hp easy.
show me these drag builds
All I can find is a 90% finished one on dragbike.com that I've been following for years but never really got finished.
would love to see one running.
Post by: Jeram on April 20, 2013, 11:26:10 AM
Post by: factoryX on April 20, 2013, 12:01:13 PM
Post by: factoryX on April 20, 2013, 12:02:19 PM
LMFAO hahahaha
Holy mother of god. imagine this in a road racing miata set up haha.
Post by: Jeram on April 20, 2013, 01:11:05 PM
photos
Not sure if it ever went very well though. I think you could go much quicker on a hotted up RZ350 motor.
Post by: factoryX on April 20, 2013, 07:33:27 PM
Post by: Jeram on April 22, 2013, 01:48:20 PM
But I just fired up my 421cc twin this evening for the first time and I remembered why the 421Cub motor is so good.
Its just pure bang for buck reliability.
I dont think you can build a reliable pump gas 85hp two stroker for less, and have the ability to squeeze out 100hp down the track with big carbs, high compression and methanol.
Going to have some good fun on the 1/4 mile this weekend hopefully
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on April 24, 2013, 12:21:33 PM
Na, too small.
Johnson 4L V8. 300Hp.
That's it?
4L V8 an you only get 300hp?I know of Vauxhall Corsa`s that make more from a 1.6L engine!
Also isnt that V8 a two stroke? I would of thought that it would make atleast 5 or 6 hundred horses without trying.
Post by: Jeram on April 24, 2013, 02:24:09 PM
thats whyits more about being a simple, reliable, light weight, compact and fuel efficient package that makes the same hp as a comparable 4 stroke.
Post by: factoryX on April 24, 2013, 05:17:15 PM
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on April 24, 2013, 07:32:58 PM
Post by: TMKIWI on April 25, 2013, 06:20:40 AM
That's it?
I know of Vauxhall Corsa`s that make more from a 1.6L engine!
Also isnt that V8 a two stroke? I would of thought that it would make atleast 5 or 6 hundred horses without trying.
You can't compare a turbo to a N/A motor.
And 300Hp was standard. They can be tuned to 450Hp.
And as Jeram said, No expansion chambers.