Post by: luthier269 on December 08, 2009, 07:58:21 PM
Post by: JohnN on December 08, 2009, 08:08:03 PM
Personally I have used Golden Spectro, Yamalube, Maxima and Bel Ray. I think any one of them would serve you well. The idea is not to mix them, sometimes they don't play well together.
When I used to ride every week, I used to buy two-stroke oil by the case. It was cheaper that way, I didn't have to go anyplace to pick it up and it was never out of stock at my local dealer.
Post by: bigbore on December 08, 2009, 08:15:10 PM
Post by: Recovered on December 08, 2009, 08:34:06 PM
1. It's 2010 and you SHOULD be using a synthetic.
2. Pick a brand and stick with it (jet accordingly).
3. Pick a pre-mix ratio and stick with it.
You are correct...I am found wanting in mathematical skills :-*
Post by: metal_miracle on December 09, 2009, 07:01:14 AM
my tm85 needs 32:1
but my on ktm85 its recommended 40:1
Post by: Recovered on December 09, 2009, 08:30:52 AM
See my above post.
Post by: compmoto on December 10, 2009, 07:52:10 PM
Post by: Hondacrrider on December 12, 2009, 09:41:15 PM
Post by: westsiderippa on December 15, 2009, 05:38:51 PM
Post by: ford832 on December 15, 2009, 05:45:25 PM
Post by: theeternaltwostroker-mr.h on December 15, 2009, 06:54:50 PM
You would surprise yourself trying the cheapest outboard boat oil you can find that's certified TC -w3 or whatever that is...
Walmart supertech is less than 10 a gallon, and will blow your mind in performance when mixed at appropriate ratios (around 30:1 for most people works great)
Penzoil's oil is great too...along with a lot of other "budget" outboard oils.
As far as mx specific oils, pretty much can't go wrong if you mix at the right ratio for your application, some of the amsoil products burn incredibly clean though I have had some odd issues with it in other areas.
Castor 927 is IMHO the best all out race lubricant but I suggest frequent tear downs with it for carbon.
Post by: KXwestYZ on January 05, 2010, 01:52:54 PM
Post by: Cable Stretcher on January 05, 2010, 04:22:35 PM
Post by: DESERTFOX19 on January 07, 2010, 07:23:49 PM
Post by: ford832 on January 11, 2010, 04:31:09 PM
Post by: Recovered on January 11, 2010, 05:13:25 PM
Motul 800 always.The best I've found to date for protection and engine cleanliness at tear down.
That is 100% synthetic right??
Post by: ford832 on January 11, 2010, 05:38:18 PM
Post by: admiral on January 12, 2010, 05:36:22 PM
I would like your opinon. I've been using Pj1 gold fire but its getting hard to find around here. I'm looking to switch to an oil thats easy to find here. The main choices are Yamalube,red line, All the Maxima oils,Belray ,Motul,golden spetro. Thanksi find Yamalube, Belray MC-1, and Golden Spectro to be diry with too much carbon build up. as stated the Motul 800 is very clean and so is the Redline. all the oils will protect your engine some just burn cleaner.
Post by: Helmut Clasen on January 22, 2010, 01:13:31 PM
OPTI-4 in all my modern KTMs 4 strokers.
(its the same oil almost every chainsaw pro is using.)
Maico was using it under there own Name MAICO RACING oil 100-1.
The German Munich oil company was sold several years ago to Castrol.
But a sister company bought the license early enough and is making the oil in the USA.
Blaine , Washington
www.opti2-4.com (http://www.opti2-4.com)
Post by: admiral on January 22, 2010, 04:38:12 PM
(its the same oil almost every chainsaw pro is using.)
[/quote]
chain saw pro? how do you become a professional chain saw-er?
Post by: ford832 on January 22, 2010, 07:07:12 PM
Post by: TotalNZ on January 22, 2010, 10:24:43 PM
Easy,you run a chainsaw for a living-like totalnz for instance(and it's wayyyyyy harder than you may think)-he just doesn't run much of chainsaw-that's all. ;DSorry,I couldn't help it.I run stihl/husky/jred in mine which I believe is made by castrol though I do use stihl bio for bar oil-but don't tell totalnz :-Xha ha your just sick of your new jred bogging down all the time. Yeah i run husqvarna low smoke cause thats what my work uses. top marks for using the bio baroil, it's very environmentally responsible of you.
And yes i'd definitely consider myself a chain saw pro ie professional chainsaw operator.
Post by: Helmut Clasen on January 23, 2010, 05:48:35 AM
[quotechain saw pro? how do you become a professional chain saw-er?
(its the same oil almost every chainsaw pro is using.)
[/quote
We Canadians say Chainsawpro for the timber guys who are out there and,...you know .... :)
In the early 70s when SACHS-Hercules was importet into Canada,as a sideline they importet SACHS DOLMAR chainsaws.
To brake into our market the saws where given to the timber pros for very little money.
Because the winter time was quiet time for the motorcycle business,Horst Kempter,Prez of SACHS Canada,ask me to visit the timber camps in the east to see how our saws worked.
A team of two would be working up to 8 hours a day,walking on frozen ground where in the summer would be swamp.Biggest complaint weas,inhaling the fumes of the exhaus coming out in frond of the saw,inhaling very cold winter air,getting sometimes dissy,....
So we started experimention with a flexible exhaust pipe fsatened to a harness on the shoulder.
But was not practical to disconnect when the saw was running empty and was handed over to the helper for filling and sharpening.
So we wend with one of our Pro saws to the then still existing PIONEER chainsaw company in Peterborough.They had a kind of a dyno test bunker to set up there saws for the world champion ship.
Here we mounted our saw and fed her with our SACHS saw oil(yes you get it) OPTI 2 oil.
Over a period of hours we leant the mix out from starting with a 100-1 and decreasing it steadyly until we had reached 300-1.With that mix we run the saw 10 hours non stop.After that we took the saw apart and where amased that absolutely no wear was to be found.We could not convince the timber people to use 300-1 but got them to use at least the 100-1.
Interesting also the story how the oil was original developed. ;D
Post by: admiral on January 23, 2010, 06:31:04 AM
Post by: Helmut Clasen on January 23, 2010, 06:41:37 AM
ok, a lumberjack. i get it. since i started using Husky saws in the the '80's (266 & 181 models) i will call myself a chain saw amateur.
NEW NAME: ADAM. ;D
Admiral-Amateur..... :) :) :)
Post by: Chokey on January 24, 2010, 07:44:42 PM
Pre-mix Oils
This isnā??t exactly a scientifically conducted test, itā??s just my opinions and observations about several different oils that I have tried over the last few years, on both my KX250 and my KDX250. All of these results are obtained running a 26:1 ratio, with jetting as close to perfect as I am capable of. Each oil was used through the life of at least one top-end. I only use Wiseco pistons and rings. Remember, these are just my observations and opinions, I'm not trying to to bash anybody's choice of oil, so don't get your panties in a wad...
Golden Spectro: This oil did a good job of protecting the piston and cylinder. The piston was a little shiny on the intake side, but wear was within specs, and the piston and cylinder otherwise looked OK. There was a good coating of residual oil in both the top and bottom of the engine. It is a dirty-burning oil, however. It leaves a lot of carbon deposits on the piston crown and head, and really gums up the ring grooves and the power valves. And this oil spooges! No matter how sharp you try to jet, the spooge simply canā??t be completely eliminated. I wouldnā??t run this oil again unless I had no alternative, itā??s just too dirty. As a side note that may or may not be related to the oil, this is the only pre-mix that I have ever had an engine failure while using, with the thrust-bearings on the KDX250 crank pin seizing. It was probably just a fluke, and I canā??t pin it down to lubrication failure, but itā??s always stuck in my head.
Maxima Super-M: This oil didnā??t protect the piston as well as I would like to see in my engines. The piston was noticably shiny and scuffed on both the intake and exhaust sides, and the top-end was almost dry upon tear-down, although the bottom-end seemed to be well lubed. The ring grooves were reasonably clean, but the piston crown and head had significant deposits, as well as the powervalves, although not as bad as the Golden Spectro. Another oil that I just canā??t recommend, it just doesnā??t seem to leave the engine well lubricated or clean. I also felt this oil left an off-color on the plugs, making jetting a little more difficult.
Maxima Castor 927: Very slight scuffing on the intake side of the piston, but over-all everything looked good. The ring grooves had slight deposits, and the piston crown and head had slight build-up that was well within reason. The powervalves were gummy, but not to the point of seizing or failing, again within reason for a non-synthetic oil, and excellent for a castor-based oil. Both the top and bottom-end of the engine were very oily and well-lubed with plenty of residual build-up. And the smell of this oil is wonderfully sweet, better than any other oil Iā??ve used. I liked using this oil just for the smell! Overall a good oil with no real bad points.
Redline: This was a strange oil. The piston and cylinder looked good, with minor shiny spots but no scuffing, and everything was reasonably clean and well-lubed. But this oil actually left surface rust on the crank wheels, and tarnished the carb brass. It also had a tendency to gum up the carb jets for some reason. How a metal surface can be both oily and have rust on it is beyond me, but clearly this oil lacks any proper corrosion-inhibitors, and it must have very high levels of esters that give it a strong hygroscopic effect. I would never use it again, nor could I recommend it.
Mobil 1 MX2T: The piston and cylinder looked great with this oil. No noticable shiny spots or scuffing on the piston at all. The top and bottom of the engine were well lubed with plenty of residual build-up, and even the powervalves were oily and lubed. No other oil that Iā??ve used compares to the cleanliness of this oil. The piston, head, and powervalves were nearly spotless, the valves didnā??t even really need cleaning. If I were a serious racer, this would be my oil of choice. The only reason I no longer use it is the awful, acrid-smelling exhaust it produces. Since I just play-ride with my buddies, they all complained srongly about the smell when they were riding behind me, and my brother-in-law went so far as to tell me he would ban me from riding with him if I didnā??t change oils. This oil used to be clear, with no dyes whatsoever added to it, creating potential problems with not being able to tell if the gas is mixed or not. But it has since been re-named Racing 2T, and has been dyed red. The smell is still there, though...
Bell Ray H1R: This oil was similar to the Super-M in every way. It left the piston shiney and scuffed-looking, although the top-end wasn't left as dry looking. Deposits were less than with the Super-M, but still heavy enough on the valves to be a problem for riders that run their top-ends for extended periods of time. I could see this oil gumming up the valves enough to cause them to stop functioning. An acceptable but un-exceptional oil.
Yamalube 2R: For a dino-based semi-synthetic oil, this is an exceptional product that performs as well as any full-synthetic out there. The piston and cylinder always look good, with no significant shiny spots or scuffing. The ring grooves, piston crown, and combustion chamber were very clean, with only a light circular carbon pattern on the crown and head. The valves are almost as clean as with MX2T, although not clean enough to not need removing and cleaning. The top and bottom of the engine are always well lubed with plenty of residual oil, even on the powervalves. This is my oil of choice, and I whole-heartedly recommend it to everyone, racer and casual rider alike.
These are only a few of the oils on the market. There are plenty of great oils out there for people to use, these are just the ones I have personally used.
Post by: TotalNZ on January 24, 2010, 11:32:21 PM
Post by: JohnN on January 25, 2010, 04:13:11 AM
I wrote this up a few years ago on another forum, this seems like an appropriate thread for it:
Pre-mix Oils
This isnā??t exactly a scientifically conducted test, itā??s just my opinions and observations about several different oils that I have tried over the last few years, on both my KX250 and my KDX250. All of these results are obtained running a 26:1 ratio, with jetting as close to perfect as I am capable of. Each oil was used through the life of at least one top-end. I only use Wiseco pistons and rings. Remember, these are just my observations and opinions, I'm not trying to to bash anybody's choice of oil, so don't get your panties in a wad...
Golden Spectro: This oil did a good job of protecting the piston and cylinder. The piston was a little shiny on the intake side, but wear was within specs, and the piston and cylinder otherwise looked OK. There was a good coating of residual oil in both the top and bottom of the engine. It is a dirty-burning oil, however. It leaves a lot of carbon deposits on the piston crown and head, and really gums up the ring grooves and the power valves. And this oil spooges! No matter how sharp you try to jet, the spooge simply canā??t be completely eliminated. I wouldnā??t run this oil again unless I had no alternative, itā??s just too dirty. As a side note that may or may not be related to the oil, this is the only pre-mix that I have ever had an engine failure while using, with the thrust-bearings on the KDX250 crank pin seizing. It was probably just a fluke, and I canā??t pin it down to lubrication failure, but itā??s always stuck in my head.
Maxima Super-M: This oil didnā??t protect the piston as well as I would like to see in my engines. The piston was noticably shiny and scuffed on both the intake and exhaust sides, and the top-end was almost dry upon tear-down, although the bottom-end seemed to be well lubed. The ring grooves were reasonably clean, but the piston crown and head had significant deposits, as well as the powervalves, although not as bad as the Golden Spectro. Another oil that I just canā??t recommend, it just doesnā??t seem to leave the engine well lubricated or clean. I also felt this oil left an off-color on the plugs, making jetting a little more difficult.
Maxima Castor 927: Very slight scuffing on the intake side of the piston, but over-all everything looked good. The ring grooves had slight deposits, and the piston crown and head had slight build-up that was well within reason. The powervalves were gummy, but not to the point of seizing or failing, again within reason for a non-synthetic oil, and excellent for a castor-based oil. Both the top and bottom-end of the engine were very oily and well-lubed with plenty of residual build-up. And the smell of this oil is wonderfully sweet, better than any other oil Iā??ve used. I liked using this oil just for the smell! Overall a good oil with no real bad points.
Redline: This was a strange oil. The piston and cylinder looked good, with minor shiny spots but no scuffing, and everything was reasonably clean and well-lubed. But this oil actually left surface rust on the crank wheels, and tarnished the carb brass. It also had a tendency to gum up the carb jets for some reason. How a metal surface can be both oily and have rust on it is beyond me, but clearly this oil lacks any proper corrosion-inhibitors, and it must have very high levels of esters that give it a strong hygroscopic effect. I would never use it again, nor could I recommend it.
Mobil 1 MX2T: The piston and cylinder looked great with this oil. No noticable shiny spots or scuffing on the piston at all. The top and bottom of the engine were well lubed with plenty of residual build-up, and even the powervalves were oily and lubed. No other oil that Iā??ve used compares to the cleanliness of this oil. The piston, head, and powervalves were nearly spotless, the valves didnā??t even really need cleaning. If I were a serious racer, this would be my oil of choice. The only reason I no longer use it is the awful, acrid-smelling exhaust it produces. Since I just play-ride with my buddies, they all complained srongly about the smell when they were riding behind me, and my brother-in-law went so far as to tell me he would ban me from riding with him if I didnā??t change oils. This oil used to be clear, with no dyes whatsoever added to it, creating potential problems with not being able to tell if the gas is mixed or not. But it has since been re-named Racing 2T, and has been dyed red. The smell is still there, though...
Bell Ray H1R: This oil was similar to the Super-M in every way. It left the piston shiney and scuffed-looking, although the top-end wasn't left as dry looking. Deposits were less than with the Super-M, but still heavy enough on the valves to be a problem for riders that run their top-ends for extended periods of time. I could see this oil gumming up the valves enough to cause them to stop functioning. An acceptable but un-exceptional oil.
Yamalube 2R: For a dino-based semi-synthetic oil, this is an exceptional product that performs as well as any full-synthetic out there. The piston and cylinder always look good, with no significant shiny spots or scuffing. The ring grooves, piston crown, and combustion chamber were very clean, with only a light circular carbon pattern on the crown and head. The valves are almost as clean as with MX2T, although not clean enough to not need removing and cleaning. The top and bottom of the engine are always well lubed with plenty of residual oil, even on the powervalves. This is my oil of choice, and I whole-heartedly recommend it to everyone, racer and casual rider alike.
These are only a few of the oils on the market. There are plenty of great oils out there for people to use, these are just the ones I have personally used.
This is a fantastic post!! I love when something is based on personal experience like this... you get a real sense for how something works.
Welcome to the forum!
Post by: GPRRacing52 on January 25, 2010, 08:36:53 AM
the are one of the best 2 stroke oil in the world!
Post by: MMS on January 25, 2010, 09:10:29 AM
Are here no guys that are using Castrol A747 or XR77?
the are one of the best 2 stroke oil in the world!
I'm a Castrol user. 747 for everything I have that needs pre-mixing and TTS or R2 for any of the road bikes that have an auto-lube system.
I assume that for whatever reason Castrol isn't available in the "States" at all or else has a very poor distribution network or something.
I stick with 747 over the XR77 as even Castrol themselves say that despite everything else, nobody has come up with a full synthetic component to match the ultimate anti-seize properties of castor oil. It's only drawback is that it won't mix well with most of the specific race fuels on the market, which is when you should use XR77, but that doesn't affect me so I'll be using 747 as long as they keep it on the market.
I use it in the Maico's, any newer 250's that I've had, had an EC300 Gas Gas for a while and run it, the minibikes, we also have an 100cc direct drive kart with a very trick (Italian) Iame Sirio engine that revs to the moon and back and it runs on it. I know I few guys still running TZ's both old and new, Banshee quads, all of them swear by 747, and me too!
Post by: ford832 on January 25, 2010, 01:38:24 PM
ok, a lumberjack. i get it. since i started using Husky saws in the the '80's (266 & 181 models) i will call myself a chain saw amateur.
Well,you may be an amateur,but given your choice of brand,you're still much better equipped than totalNZ. :D
As for the definition of an NZ lumberjack,google Monty Python's "I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok"
There,totalnz,that's what you get for saying the mighty jred bogs down-lol.
In keeping with the topic of saw choices/superiority,it's all relative.My grandfather worked in the woods his entire life from the horse/oxen/woods camp/river log drive era right up until his death about 15 years ago.My summer vacations were usually spent in the woods with him though when I was younger I used to haul the logs out as he figured I was too young to run a chainsaw safely.Anyhoo,we were at a forestry exhibition one time and were looking at some restored vintage two man chainsaws.After picking one up I said-holy %@$#,what a pig.How would anyone ever use the likes of that monstrosity.Well,he says,when you were used to a double bitted axe and bucksaw,these were quite an amazing piece of gear.Things have certainly come a long way since then.
Post by: ford832 on January 25, 2010, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: Helmut Clasen
Interesting also the story how the oil was original developed. ;D
[/quote
Interesting also the story how the oil was original developed. ;D
[/quote
Well,we're waiting........ :)
I'd be interested not so much in an obvious piston/cyl wear but a long term crank bearing life as compared to another brand of high end synthetic mixed at a more common ratio.
Post by: ford832 on January 25, 2010, 01:48:26 PM
I wrote this up a few years ago on another forum, this seems like an appropriate thread for it:
Pre-mix Oils
This isnā??t exactly a scientifically conducted test, itā??s just my opinions and observations about several different oils that I have tried over the last few years, on both my KX250 and my KDX250. All of these results are obtained running a 26:1 ratio, with jetting as close to perfect as I am capable of. Each oil was used through the life of at least one top-end. I only use Wiseco pistons and rings. Remember, these are just my observations and opinions, I'm not trying to to bash anybody's choice of oil, so don't get your panties in a wad...
Golden Spectro: This oil did a good job of protecting the piston and cylinder. The piston was a little shiny on the intake side, but wear was within specs, and the piston and cylinder otherwise looked OK. There was a good coating of residual oil in both the top and bottom of the engine. It is a dirty-burning oil, however. It leaves a lot of carbon deposits on the piston crown and head, and really gums up the ring grooves and the power valves. And this oil spooges! No matter how sharp you try to jet, the spooge simply canā??t be completely eliminated. I wouldnā??t run this oil again unless I had no alternative, itā??s just too dirty. As a side note that may or may not be related to the oil, this is the only pre-mix that I have ever had an engine failure while using, with the thrust-bearings on the KDX250 crank pin seizing. It was probably just a fluke, and I canā??t pin it down to lubrication failure, but itā??s always stuck in my head.
Maxima Super-M: This oil didnā??t protect the piston as well as I would like to see in my engines. The piston was noticably shiny and scuffed on both the intake and exhaust sides, and the top-end was almost dry upon tear-down, although the bottom-end seemed to be well lubed. The ring grooves were reasonably clean, but the piston crown and head had significant deposits, as well as the powervalves, although not as bad as the Golden Spectro. Another oil that I just canā??t recommend, it just doesnā??t seem to leave the engine well lubricated or clean. I also felt this oil left an off-color on the plugs, making jetting a little more difficult.
Maxima Castor 927: Very slight scuffing on the intake side of the piston, but over-all everything looked good. The ring grooves had slight deposits, and the piston crown and head had slight build-up that was well within reason. The powervalves were gummy, but not to the point of seizing or failing, again within reason for a non-synthetic oil, and excellent for a castor-based oil. Both the top and bottom-end of the engine were very oily and well-lubed with plenty of residual build-up. And the smell of this oil is wonderfully sweet, better than any other oil Iā??ve used. I liked using this oil just for the smell! Overall a good oil with no real bad points.
Redline: This was a strange oil. The piston and cylinder looked good, with minor shiny spots but no scuffing, and everything was reasonably clean and well-lubed. But this oil actually left surface rust on the crank wheels, and tarnished the carb brass. It also had a tendency to gum up the carb jets for some reason. How a metal surface can be both oily and have rust on it is beyond me, but clearly this oil lacks any proper corrosion-inhibitors, and it must have very high levels of esters that give it a strong hygroscopic effect. I would never use it again, nor could I recommend it.
Mobil 1 MX2T: The piston and cylinder looked great with this oil. No noticable shiny spots or scuffing on the piston at all. The top and bottom of the engine were well lubed with plenty of residual build-up, and even the powervalves were oily and lubed. No other oil that Iā??ve used compares to the cleanliness of this oil. The piston, head, and powervalves were nearly spotless, the valves didnā??t even really need cleaning. If I were a serious racer, this would be my oil of choice. The only reason I no longer use it is the awful, acrid-smelling exhaust it produces. Since I just play-ride with my buddies, they all complained srongly about the smell when they were riding behind me, and my brother-in-law went so far as to tell me he would ban me from riding with him if I didnā??t change oils. This oil used to be clear, with no dyes whatsoever added to it, creating potential problems with not being able to tell if the gas is mixed or not. But it has since been re-named Racing 2T, and has been dyed red. The smell is still there, though...
Bell Ray H1R: This oil was similar to the Super-M in every way. It left the piston shiney and scuffed-looking, although the top-end wasn't left as dry looking. Deposits were less than with the Super-M, but still heavy enough on the valves to be a problem for riders that run their top-ends for extended periods of time. I could see this oil gumming up the valves enough to cause them to stop functioning. An acceptable but un-exceptional oil.
Yamalube 2R: For a dino-based semi-synthetic oil, this is an exceptional product that performs as well as any full-synthetic out there. The piston and cylinder always look good, with no significant shiny spots or scuffing. The ring grooves, piston crown, and combustion chamber were very clean, with only a light circular carbon pattern on the crown and head. The valves are almost as clean as with MX2T, although not clean enough to not need removing and cleaning. The top and bottom of the engine are always well lubed with plenty of residual oil, even on the powervalves. This is my oil of choice, and I whole-heartedly recommend it to everyone, racer and casual rider alike.
These are only a few of the oils on the market. There are plenty of great oils out there for people to use, these are just the ones I have personally used.
Though I've never used it,it was always my understanding that 927 was a very good oil if you tore your engine down frequently,as it tended to be a a somewhat dirty/gummy oil.As for yamalube,I've found that works well but always left the pv much dirtier than the motul800 I've used for the last number of years.Completely unscientific mind you as far as my own testing goes,just what I've noticed at tear down over the years.
Post by: Chokey on January 25, 2010, 06:15:49 PM
Are here no guys that are using Castrol A747 or XR77?The only Castrol pre-mix oil that is readily available in this area is Castrol 2T Motorcycle oil. It's a generic premix oil that in my opinion doesn't have an adequate additive package for high-rpm high-performance engines. I would only use it in a pinch.
the are one of the best 2 stroke oil in the world!
(http://www.castrol.com/assets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/images/products/2t_motorcycle450x999.jpg)
Post by: Chokey on January 25, 2010, 06:32:01 PM
I do tend to rebuild at fairly frequent intervals, typically 40 hours or so. But based on my useage patterns, neither 927 or Yamalube is excessively "dirty".
Though I've never used it,it was always my understanding that 927 was a very good oil if you tore your engine down frequently,as it tended to be a a somewhat dirty/gummy oil.As for yamalube,I've found that works well but always left the pv much dirtier than the motul800 I've used for the last number of years.Completely unscientific mind you as far as my own testing goes,just what I've noticed at tear down over the years.
927 is an excellent oil for hard-core "I can ream a 250 like an 85" racers, because it's a blend of de-gummed castor and a polyalkylene glycol base. The addition of the synthetic base significantly reduces the varnish formations that castor is known for, while the unique ester-forming properties of the castor under intense heat will do an excellent job of protecting the engine when you're pushing it to it's thermal limits.
Synthetics are very clean-burning lubricants, but none of them can protect like castor when running at the ragged limits of your engine. As castor breaks down under thermal stress, it responds by forming ever-heavier esters, in effect becoming a better lubricant as it breaks down. Castor will continue to lubricate long after a synthetic oil has simply boiled away.
Post by: reefmuncher on January 26, 2010, 05:00:30 AM
A long time ago (early 90's) I used to swear by Shell outboard oil and Evinrude XP outboard oil. Both oils had this distinct smell (could be same oil different dye?) and worked really well with clean burn and on my road going aircooled engine hone marks were totally in tact. Not sure of ratio as it was on pump, but it worked for me with no issues.
At some point a dealer started selling Silkolene oils so I tried the injector and comp 2 oils. For me both ended up making lots of carbon and bore wear seemed more obvious for sure. I quickly went back to the outboard stuff.
On my racing bikes I used blendzall which was super impressive for wear resistance, just did mean ring sticking was something to watch for.
Next came Klotz racing oils and so I used their injector oil on the road bike and premix stuff on the race bike with no troubles. I don't remember all the details then as I guess it worked fine for me so no worries. I started to use Castrol A747 on the race bikes which also did a fine job.
Down the road to more recent times Motul became available to us and I started to use the 510 and 710 on the road bikes and the 800 premix when I blasted them on track days. A friend of mine races scooters which rev at a constant high RPM and they found even the 800 wouldn't offer the protection they required, so they use the Motul kart racing oil which is for 23,000rpm racing engines. They swear by the stuff now and a regimented maintence schedule.
My experiences aren't scientific at all, just what I've stumbled upon along the way. I premix at 32:1 with no deviation, just adjust the oil type for the loading the engine will be doing. So cruising road bikes get the 510 easy to burn off oil, tuned road bikes which get a bit of stick get the 710 better protection oil and when I go to the track (race these days) I mix with the 800 for maximum protection.
I think most brands offer similar oils in their lineups so if I switched to Castrol or others I'd probably follow a similar regime.
Post by: Hondacrrider on January 26, 2010, 11:07:00 AM
Post by: ford832 on January 26, 2010, 05:20:41 PM
I do tend to rebuild at fairly frequent intervals, typically 40 hours or so. But based on my useage patterns, neither 927 or Yamalube is excessively "dirty".
Though I've never used it,it was always my understanding that 927 was a very good oil if you tore your engine down frequently,as it tended to be a a somewhat dirty/gummy oil.As for yamalube,I've found that works well but always left the pv much dirtier than the motul800 I've used for the last number of years.Completely unscientific mind you as far as my own testing goes,just what I've noticed at tear down over the years.
927 is an excellent oil for hard-core "I can ream a 250 like an 85" racers, because it's a blend of de-gummed castor and a polyalkylene glycol base. The addition of the synthetic base significantly reduces the varnish formations that castor is known for, while the unique ester-forming properties of the castor under intense heat will do an excellent job of protecting the engine when you're pushing it to it's thermal limits.
Synthetics are very clean-burning lubricants, but none of them can protect like castor when running at the ragged limits of your engine. As castor breaks down under thermal stress, it responds by forming ever-heavier esters, in effect becoming a better lubricant as it breaks down. Castor will continue to lubricate long after a synthetic oil has simply boiled away.
Good info Chokey.Thanks.By the sounds of it,the 927 would have been good for my 125's but with the 250,all I ream is my head into the dirt.I'll likely stick with the 800 for that.
Post by: mxaniac on February 19, 2010, 03:53:19 PM
Read the fine print, small engines need more oil than large ones. I wouldn't run a 65 cc bike with less than 32:1, the lower rod end bearing has a tendancy to go out. I say that but my youngest sons 65 cc bike recommends 60:1 but only because they did a crappy power valve design and it gums up and breaks.
Post by: maicoman009 on April 01, 2010, 02:42:56 PM
Motorex and also why does the new Maicos use Maxima 2t oils?
Post by: grumpy on April 01, 2010, 08:32:57 PM
TCW3 (outboard motors) oil is designed for motors that do not exceed 300 degrees in the ring land area, so I'd recommend you avoid it. It's a shame too as TCW3 oil is so much cheaper.
API-TC is the rating you should be using. I'm pretty cheap myself and like to run 16:1 in my old bike. So Yamalube 2R or ValvolineĀ® 2-Stroke Motorcycle Oil (not the outboard stuff) works for me.
I use 16:1 instead of 20:1 because it's a simple ratio to measure out (yes, I know that makes me lazy). Since I ride an old bike I feel better with these ratios. Check out http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf (http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf) for a good read on premix ratios. ;)
Post by: evo550 on April 02, 2010, 03:40:14 AM
At about $15 a liter it's half the price of motul and motorex, although as mentioned elsewhere, castor oil has a short life once mixed and is very hydroscopic(attracts moisture), carbon build up is also a down side, OH and the smell :-* :-* :-*
Post by: 2T Institute on April 02, 2010, 04:45:07 AM
This is a cylinder last ran in 2001 or something been sitting round ever since, some everso slight surface rust on a cast iron bore. NOTHING protects like castor oil. I have yet to have any issues with this varnish everybody talks about?
Have recently sorted big end issues with a bored out KX60 it would last a lap and a half on TTS at 30:1 runs for many meetings on Castor at 20:1
Post by: graham472 on April 03, 2010, 12:32:06 AM
Post by: Jesse162 on April 13, 2010, 11:06:23 PM
Post by: RideRedMx2 on April 15, 2010, 05:44:55 PM
Post by: RedFoxCR on May 31, 2010, 05:44:59 AM
Now i have little left, so i went to an opposite block, where AGIP dealer is (Russians ain't no tribesmen! we're civilized!!!) and bought AGIP Cross 2t . Haven't tried it yet.
What do you think?
Post by: 2T Institute on May 31, 2010, 04:29:43 PM
Post by: ford832 on May 31, 2010, 04:48:51 PM
Post by: RedFoxCR on June 01, 2010, 12:13:51 PM
I use AGIP KART , it's very very good oil and so is CROSS 2T. Much better than the chainsaw stuff.
You sure? I jetted the bike for Agip mixture and it seems fine. But what about protective qualities. Somewhere in the forum there was an article abot semi-synt . It is supposed not to boil out the cylinder, but to crack and form heavy, hi-viscosity esters, protecting the engine
Post by: Chokey on June 01, 2010, 08:11:10 PM
Petroleum-based oils will not form esters when heated. Only castor will do that.I use AGIP KART , it's very very good oil and so is CROSS 2T. Much better than the chainsaw stuff.
You sure? I jetted the bike for Agip mixture and it seems fine. But what about protective qualities. Somewhere in the forum there was an article abot semi-synt . It is supposed not to boil out the cylinder, but to crack and form heavy, hi-viscosity esters, protecting the engine
Post by: RedFoxCR on June 02, 2010, 12:15:38 AM
Post by: teriks on June 02, 2010, 01:22:10 AM
Castor oil? You mean that stuff, sold in drugstores? Heard about it. How much should i add?You could always add a small quantity of for the great smell of it ;)
Seriously unless you are prepared to clean the power valve and combustion chamber often, don't use it. It sure has some great qualities, but I personally don't think it's worth using in an (recreational) mx bike.
This comes from someone who's forced by rules to use a mix of 80% methanol and 20% castor in model racing engines. -Tear down and clean, clean clean every ~10 minutes of running... it have saved me from disaster when running too lean a number of times thoug.
Here's some old but good info on castor oil.
http://www.go-cl.se/castor.html (http://www.go-cl.se/castor.html)
The discussion is mainly about application in two-stroke model engines, but it's still applicable on a two-stroke mx bike.
Post by: RedFoxCR on June 02, 2010, 02:38:37 AM
Post by: teriks on June 02, 2010, 05:13:22 AM
I really don't have too much experience of tuning a gasoline two-stroke engine, and I'm convinced that it's behavior differs a bit from the methanol glow-ignition engines I'm used to.
In other words, your question is better answered by someone else. :)
Edit: I do own and run a dirt-bike, a KTM 250SX. It's got more power than I need, so i have no reason for jetting it "on the edge". Hence no real experience in tuning an mx bike.
Post by: 2T Institute on June 02, 2010, 06:48:23 AM
You sure? I jetted the bike for Agip mixture and it seems fine. But what about protective qualities. Somewhere in the forum there was an article abot semi-synt . It is supposed not to boil out the cylinder, but to crack and form heavy, hi-viscosity esters, protecting the engine
Unless you have found some thing that EVERY GP125/Shifterkart/Sprint kart/vintage mx and road racers have yet uncovered. They use power valves etc etc. If you have deposits/gum it's your jetting and igniton that is at fault.
The difference between lean and too lean is the former you go fast the latter you go real fast then stop.
Post by: teriks on June 02, 2010, 07:44:22 AM
I guess that was a response to my post? If not, just forget this part.You sure? I jetted the bike for Agip mixture and it seems fine. But what about protective qualities. Somewhere in the forum there was an article abot semi-synt . It is supposed not to boil out the cylinder, but to crack and form heavy, hi-viscosity esters, protecting the engine
Unless you have found some thing that EVERY GP125/Shifterkart/Sprint kart/vintage mx and road racers have yet uncovered. They use power valves etc etc. If you have deposits/gum it's your jetting and igniton that is at fault.
I can see that I was a bit unclear, the "Tear down and clean, clean clean every ~10 minutes of running"-part applies to my 6.6cm^3 (.40cui) engines producing around 4hp at some 33000 to 34000rpm. Due to design they are very sensitive to deposits.
A typical two-stroke MX-engine would not require even close to the same amount of cleaning.
I still believe that running castor oil in an mx bike will lead to more deposits than a modern syntetic oil. Not worth it in a recreational bike i.m.o.
Quote
The difference between lean and too lean is the former you go fast the latter you go real fast then stop.Sounds similar enough to the small engines. Really fast to start with -> Loss of power -> Sudden stop. ;)
Post by: FatBiker on June 23, 2010, 08:41:21 PM
I fully agree modern synthetics have a lot of plusses...however with ANY "performance" two stroke oil price is not one of them!
You would surprise yourself trying the cheapest outboard boat oil you can find that's certified TC -w3 or whatever that is...
Walmart supertech is less than 10 a gallon, and will blow your mind in performance when mixed at appropriate ratios (around 30:1 for most people works great)
Penzoil's oil is great too...along with a lot of other "budget" outboard oils.
As far as mx specific oils, pretty much can't go wrong if you mix at the right ratio for your application, some of the amsoil products burn incredibly clean though I have had some odd issues with it in other areas.
Castor 927 is IMHO the best all out race lubricant but I suggest frequent tear downs with it for carbon.
It's interesting that you mention such cheap 2 smoke oil. When I drug home my "new" '82 RM 250 I didn't have any 2 stroke oil. I went up to Wal Mart and bought there brand of "outboard" 2 stroke oil, Supertech. I just wanted to see if/how good my new acquisition ran. It ran a little smokey at first, iirc they all do 'til warm, but then cleaned right up after a few rips around the back 2 1/2. It runs great on that stuff! I doubt I'll run it after this bottle runs out. It stinks just like a chainsaw but seems to work. I mixed it 32:1.
Post by: keeptwostrokesalive on July 15, 2010, 09:46:57 AM
Post by: factoryX on July 15, 2010, 03:53:50 PM
klotz super techniplate is awesome. It smells amazing and i have never had any problems what so ever with it.
x2
Post by: crash796 on July 17, 2010, 09:48:53 AM
Post by: Super Trucker on July 23, 2010, 10:14:51 AM
klotz super techniplate is awesome. It smells amazing and i have never had any problems what so ever with it.I just bought 2 bottles for my cr144, the mechanic at the KTM dealership said he ran it in all his 2-strokes, including a cr134. I was using Belray H1R at 40.1, in the 38 hp 04 cr125 decked,ported, carb borred to 40mm, icat, pc pipe,silencer, wiseco gp piston. I never had piston problems, the crank bearings went out at about 40 hrs., I ride it very hard though and the crank was 5 yrs. old. So I think Klotz or 927 Maxima is a better oil, for a overborred motor, that creates more heat, correct me if I,m wrong.
Post by: RideRedMx2 on July 23, 2010, 10:57:15 AM
Post by: Coop on July 23, 2010, 11:52:02 AM
......The main thing is find a good oil and stick with it dont vary
+1, too many folks change brands every time they need gas/oil and wonder why they can never figure their jetting issues out.
Post by: luthier269 on November 23, 2010, 08:12:47 PM
Post by: opfermanmotors on November 23, 2010, 08:28:15 PM
Post by: ford832 on November 24, 2010, 03:42:40 PM
I just use peanut butter. It was good enough for Mister Ed.
And good enough for any Maico as well :D A horse is a horse of course,of course.... :)
I was using motul 800 and recently went to interceptor simply because the shop I work at is selling it now.
On the other hand,my grandfather,who worked in the woods all his life used 10w30 in his saws and snowmobiles and never blew an engine.He'd just give them a really good shake before use as it tended to separate.I think some of this oil hype is overrated-but I still like good stuff-just in case :)
Post by: SachsGS on November 24, 2010, 05:24:15 PM
So the next time you have that Yammi pinned and are vainly trying to catch a Maico disappearing in the distance, breath deeply, you might smell peanut butter ;)
Post by: charlieofak on November 24, 2010, 06:30:32 PM
Post by: ford832 on November 27, 2010, 04:46:10 AM
Given how durable the Maico engine is, it probably would tolerate just about any plant based lubricant.
So the next time you have that Yammi pinned and are vainly trying to catch a Maico disappearing in the distance, breath deeply, you might smell peanut butter ;)
Hahahaha,I'll try to take note of it in the future. :D So far though,I've only noticed the smell of strawberries from a buddies KTM who uses Ipone. :)
Charlieofak,the Interceptor I use now is an Amsoil product-it's good stuff.
Post by: rookie on November 27, 2010, 05:30:55 AM
Post by: HS125 on November 28, 2010, 04:00:05 PM
Post by: MyckMcClung on January 07, 2011, 04:27:00 AM
Post by: beaner on October 12, 2011, 11:17:01 AM
I was looking for an answer to something that I can't explain, and google led me to this thread, which has had a decent technical component to to.
4 years ago, when i bought my RM 125, I was trying different oils (mostly an availability thing) and ended up with some Belray H1R. I immediately noticed a power increase. A significant power increase. I didn't believe it was possible, so I did some back to back testing. It was a very obvious, and very significant difference.
A few weeks ago, I ran out of the Castrol GP 2 stroke I've been using in my vintage bike, and my dealer had a deal on Belray MC 1. I tried it, mixed at the same 40-1 and noticed a significant power increase. Exactly the same as the above, I was able to duplicate it.
Both times it was Belray, and both times the difference was significant. If somebody told me the same thing, I probably wouldn't believe it. The first time I chalked it up to possibly jetting, or the way the oil contributed to combustion, but exactly the same result twice on 2 different bikes.
Can somebody explain what's going on?
Post by: TMKIWI on October 12, 2011, 12:24:59 PM
I had intended to change to H1R 6 months ago from Total 2R.
Bought the oil ( I can get it at cost ) but broke myself and havn't been on the bike since.
Will find out soon what you are talking about when i get back on the bike.
Wouldn't think there was a power increase , I'm just after best protection I can get.
Post by: oldermxr on October 12, 2011, 01:35:56 PM
Post by: Mountain Goat on October 12, 2011, 10:30:50 PM
Post by: scotty dog on October 13, 2011, 12:10:55 PM
Post by: beaner on October 13, 2011, 12:43:55 PM
I'm going to move this here, as it was the reason I brought the thread back, but is probably lost in the new page. There seems to be some decent technical knowledge here. I'd like to see is anybody has an idea why this is happening.
So forgive me for dragging up an old oil thread, but this is the reason I found the forum.
I was looking for an answer to something that I can't explain, and google led me to this thread, which has had a decent technical component to to.
4 years ago, when i bought my RM 125, I was trying different oils (mostly an availability thing) and ended up with some Belray H1R. I immediately noticed a power increase. A significant power increase. I didn't believe it was possible, so I did some back to back testing. It was a very obvious, and very significant difference.
A few weeks ago, I ran out of the Castrol GP 2 stroke I've been using in my vintage bike, and my dealer had a deal on Belray MC 1. I tried it, mixed at the same 40-1 and noticed a significant power increase. Exactly the same as the above, I was able to duplicate it.
Both times it was Belray, and both times the difference was significant. If somebody told me the same thing, I probably wouldn't believe it. The first time I chalked it up to possibly jetting, or the way the oil contributed to combustion, but exactly the same result twice on 2 different bikes.
Can somebody explain what's going on?
Post by: Swimr2DaResQ on October 13, 2011, 12:45:47 PM
I used Silkolene before the rebuild, full synthetic, not bad stuff, but not as good as Castor in my opinion.
::)
Post by: downonmonday on October 14, 2011, 05:39:57 PM
Post by: 2T Institute on October 18, 2011, 09:48:01 AM
So forgive me for dragging up an old oil thread, but this is the reason I found the forum.
I was looking for an answer to something that I can't explain, and google led me to this thread, which has had a decent technical component to to.
4 years ago, when i bought my RM 125, I was trying different oils (mostly an availability thing) and ended up with some Belray H1R. I immediately noticed a power increase. A significant power increase. I didn't believe it was possible, so I did some back to back testing. It was a very obvious, and very significant difference.
A few weeks ago, I ran out of the Castrol GP 2 stroke I've been using in my vintage bike, and my dealer had a deal on Belray MC 1. I tried it, mixed at the same 40-1 and noticed a significant power increase. Exactly the same as the above, I was able to duplicate it.
Both times it was Belray, and both times the difference was significant. If somebody told me the same thing, I probably wouldn't believe it. The first time I chalked it up to possibly jetting, or the way the oil contributed to combustion, but exactly the same result twice on 2 different bikes.
Can somebody explain what's going on?
Commonly called th 'placebo effect' If it has 'significant' power increases they dyno should ick that up no problems. The lowest oil ratio I ever use is 25:1 or 4%
Post by: beaner on October 18, 2011, 02:42:56 PM
Post by: Recovered on October 19, 2011, 04:45:39 PM
the secret to keeping number plates nice is to stop buying those "shorty" silencers and buy the standard length fmf or PC one that sits flush with the sideplate. shorties sound cool i suppose but its not worth destroying a number plate every 3-4 rides, especially when everyone is running pre-printed backgrounds that take a month to come in the mail.
Post by: 2T Institute on October 20, 2011, 09:07:04 PM
Definitely not placebo affect. The difference really was that big, and I wasn't looking for it either time.I find that very hard to believe. A before and after run on a dyno should be pretty easy.
Post by: beaner on October 21, 2011, 12:35:53 AM
Definitely not placebo affect. The difference really was that big, and I wasn't looking for it either time.I find that very hard to believe.
So did I. Like i said, if somebody told me, I probably wouldn't believe it either.
Post by: Kodackamera on October 26, 2011, 03:28:04 AM
Post by: johnfritos on August 06, 2012, 11:39:13 PM
. had a yamaha blaster (hated it). but i got klotz benol castor racing 2 stroke oil at the dealer, a worker said he had a rm125 last year and he used that. but ivee heard that castor oil is bad ... not sure. but was thinking of the klotz oils the r50, or the super techniplate. what do you think. btw i ran 31:1 for about 5 practices.
Post by: beaner on August 08, 2012, 03:10:34 AM
http://www.maximausa.com/tech-tips/oil-migration.php
Read the conclusions, and follow the recommendations. I think any of the major oils are fine. I am partial to Belray and Maxima oils, but from what I understand, Klotz is topnotch stuff. I use Maxima castor oil in my own 125 and my vintage bike.
You can't go wrong mixing 32-1 for your 125
Post by: Swimr2DaResQ on August 10, 2012, 04:27:57 AM
http://www.maximausa.com/lube-news/lubenewssummer2001.swf
Post by: _X_ on August 11, 2012, 07:53:48 PM
Post by: _X_ on August 11, 2012, 07:55:59 PM
Post by: beaner on August 11, 2012, 08:11:44 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on August 16, 2012, 01:10:04 PM
Post by: Jeram on August 21, 2012, 11:16:55 PM
Its got a ceramic additive in it that is tested to be 3 times slipperier than PTFE (the most slippery substance know to man).
Comes in 2 variants,
1. full synth
2. castor synth
Ill let you guys know how it goes in the supermotard
Post by: riffraff on August 22, 2012, 05:07:00 AM
Who makes the stuff Jeram, or is it a secret for now?
Post by: Jeram on August 22, 2012, 06:26:17 AM
not too bad value at $45 AUD a liter (bout the same as AGIP), would be cheaper in the USA and Europe too.
Has been very successful in superkart racing.
Post by: scotty dog on August 25, 2012, 03:45:19 AM
its available to the public, but I want to test it out first in a month or so and Ill let you know how it goes.$45 a litre
not too bad value at $45 AUD a liter (bout the same as AGIP), would be cheaper in the USA and Europe too.
Has been very successful in superkart racing.
Holy s!!t!!
Post by: factoryX on August 25, 2012, 05:35:26 AM
Post by: Jeram on August 25, 2012, 01:22:49 PM
its available to the public, but I want to test it out first in a month or so and Ill let you know how it goes.$45 a litre
not too bad value at $45 AUD a liter (bout the same as AGIP), would be cheaper in the USA and Europe too.
Has been very successful in superkart racing.
when it saves a $600 of nikasil plating and piston its worth it.
Post by: beaner on August 25, 2012, 08:43:07 PM
Post by: Jeram on August 26, 2012, 12:48:04 AM
Post by: SachsGS on August 26, 2012, 03:24:29 AM
Post by: TotalNZ on August 26, 2012, 05:25:40 AM
Post by: TMKIWI on August 26, 2012, 07:35:40 AM
when it saves a $600 of nikasil plating and piston its worth it.
Yes and no there Jeram.
I think most of us have no problems when using good quality oils.
If a ring decides to brake or a locating pin comes out of the piston it doesn't matter jack what oil you use , your nikasil is gone.
Just saying.
Post by: Jeram on August 26, 2012, 07:52:20 AM
when it saves a $600 of nikasil plating and piston its worth it.
Yes and no there Jeram.
I think most of us have no problems when using good quality oils.
If a ring decides to brake or a locating pin comes out of the piston it doesn't matter jack what oil you use , your nikasil is gone.
Just saying.
yes but thats about as relevent as saying, if your backwheel falls off will your premix save you.
both are unrelated to premix.
but where good oil comes in to save your barrel is when the piston gets very hot and expands to the point where you have very little or no clearance between the piston and the bore
at hot temps, synthetic oils simply vaporise and all their lubricating properties are lost, but racing castors form even more complex esters at high temps. So the hotter your engine runs the more lubricating capacity castor oil has which is reverse proportional to synthetics.
Add some castor to some synthetic and add a dash of super slippery ceramic additive and you get a very nice oil that gives you the best of both worlds.
1. cleaner running and less varnish due to the synthetic, great lubricating properties for low temp running
2. high temp protection when you need it thanks to the castor
3. reduced friction due to ceramic additives when you really need it (seizure time)
Post by: TMKIWI on August 26, 2012, 08:03:25 AM
For a racer who has their motor jetted for max horse power ( on the verge of seizing ) yes the oil you are talking about will have major benefits.
Post by: TMKIWI on August 26, 2012, 08:07:57 AM
Post by: 2T Institute on August 26, 2012, 09:57:33 AM
Yes I agree with all of the above, I was thinking for the average rider who shouldn't have problems with high piston temps, flash oils are not necessary.
For a racer who has their motor jetted for max horse power ( on the verge of seizing ) yes the oil you are talking about will have major benefits.
Not really have seen significantly less piston wear and scuffing on the cylinder simply adding Castrol R30 to the tank at (100:1) running in conjuction with an oil pump on a daily rider Aprilia RS125
Post by: Jeram on August 26, 2012, 01:23:23 PM