Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: Paul P on April 03, 2010, 09:50:32 AM
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Just want to spred some good news. We had a few riders come into our shop this week and talked about a recent Southwick NEMX race with a lot of two-strokes on the track. He claimed there was about a 50/50 split, even in the pro class, with John Dowd riding a 2 stroke. One of the riders said the 4 strokes took all the fun out of racing for him with their extreme expense to keep them running an entire season.
:) Paul :) :)
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The reason many of us ride / race is for the grin ;D factor.... the piggy 4 strokes took that away, and made many riders lazy and lighter in the wallet :o .... I too see in my area 2 strokes making their presence known. I'm more off-road, GNCC / Enduro riding, but in this type of racing, smokers are also increasing in numbers. :D :D
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with the bad economic situation last year i started to notice more and more two strokes at the tracks. alot of 2000- '05 era bikes were starting to show up. not a 50/50 split but just not me and my friends anymore. in my area more like a 10-20% showing which is much better than the 1-3% it was a few years ago.
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People just started to realize that 4 stroke was all hype and doesn't offer anything better that 2 stroke..
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Yep,2010 is the biginning of the return of the 2 stroke! ;)
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I'd like to think that sites like this may have had some effect. Aside from the forums, we've got a seemingly-bottomless pit of articles and stuff that really make a strong case. I haven't seen anyone writing long argumentative editorials on four-strokes, because all the arguments boil down to, "Look at (insert big name here), he rides four-stroke!" and "Look at (insert number here), it's bigger!" It'd be interesting to see if there has actually been someone who's written an editorial-style argumentative in favor of thumpers. I'd rather like to see how strong/weak the arguments are.
By the way, here's a shameless plug for my own paper, in case you missed it or didn't know it was me.
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/03/two-stroke-superiority-internal-combustion-engines-compared/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/03/two-stroke-superiority-internal-combustion-engines-compared/)
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Place 4 stroke blown parts where old world is. Jedi with 2 stroke ;D
(http://www.viewpoints.com/images/review/2008/91/12/1206983660-97848_full.jpg)
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People just started to realize that 4 stroke was all hype and doesn't offer anything better that 2 stroke..
The four-strokes do offer more than the two-strokes!!
More displacement...
More expense...
More whining...
More noise...
See.. you get a lot more with a four-stroke!! ;D ;D
JETZcorp - thank you for the compliment about this site... it is greatly appreciated. Of course a part o me would like to think the site had some influence, but it's all the folks that see or have seen that they can make a difference. One bike at a time.
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I went to the first open practice at southwick the day after the NEMX race and there was a ton of 2 strokes out there, way more then i expected. My buddy even blew a piston on his crf and the track guys were giving him a hard time at how much he was going to pay to rebuild it haha. But there was definately close to a 50/50 split in the novice and amateur classes
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i wish it was better here in cali. at least amongst the fast guys. i was expecting to see more and more but its really the same. at least i myself help the situation. i just raced the loretta qualifier at hangtown last week and thought i would see some serious 2t's on the line. they were slim pickins. none in the 250/450 exp / pro. there was 1 kid on a yz who rode in 250b and did well, i had my eye on him the entire race. couple of 125's. the super mini's were dominated though by 85 over the 150 and it always fun to watch the 65's. will see how it looks when i head south to qualify down there at peris.
oh and who said 250 2t were not competitive. sh-t i qualified against a line of 450's and went 3,3 and im heading to honey lake for the regional on my yz, yah baby. who knows god willing i might just be driving to tennessee. yah right, i wish. man that would be a dream come true, i think i would retire if i got a bib!!!
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westsiderippa CONGRATULATIONS!! That is awesome that you did so well!
You point out a very important detail.. at the motocross epi-center (California) the slant is still leaning more to the four-stroke. Not sure why that would be, but as you can see other areas of the country are making some big changes...
Most of the magazines and factories are located in California, so this is what they see every week, four-strokes. But they have no idea what is going on in the rest of the country...
It's almost like the two-stroke resurgence is going un-noticed by them!! How weird!
2010 will be their eye-opening year!
Braaaap!
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You know, I think that California is very into the latest thing, although, the joke may soon be on them, they may be running outdated equipment soon:) And also, a question, why are so many magazines based out of California? It get's kind of annoying, the same tracks they talk about, and, to me, i would not have my magazine based in California, I would have it somewhere where real dirt actually exists in great amounts, like Montana, or Canada, I don't know, just an opinion.
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Here's an interesting link. Seems the big OEM's are not as smart as they like to think. Look at the percentage of KTM's over the other makes. I know I went into a dealer looking for a 2010 KTM 150sx and was told those sell as fast as he gets them and he could sell 10 more if he had them. KTM is listening to the population and giving what they want.
http://www.moto-tally.com/nepg/Manufacturers.asp (http://www.moto-tally.com/nepg/Manufacturers.asp)
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Not happy about the FIM 250 class, but I think this is a step in the right direction! Hey AMA, how about doing this? ( I hope it's okay to post this link)
[url]http://www.easterndirt.com/?p=3054] (http://[/url)http://www.easterndirt.com/?p=3054
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Here's an interesting link. Seems the big OEM's are not as smart as they like to think. Look at the percentage of KTM's over the other makes. I know I went into a dealer looking for a 2010 KTM 150sx and was told those sell as fast as he gets them and he could sell 10 more if he had them. KTM is listening to the population and giving what they want.
http://www.moto-tally.com/nepg/Manufacturers.asp (http://www.moto-tally.com/nepg/Manufacturers.asp)
I wanted to buy a 250sx earlier this year but i was told they are all sold out for 2010. that was in late january. :o
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I have a friend who's considering getting a 250SX, though he wants an '80s Husky more. The main advantage is financing, apparently, even though the KTM is more than twice as expensive. If he does decide to get the KTM over the Husky, though, it sounds like they might not even have one for him. Crazy.
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You know, I think that California is very into the latest thing, although, the joke may soon be on them, they may be running outdated equipment soon:) And also, a question, why are so many magazines based out of California? It get's kind of annoying, the same tracks they talk about, and, to me, i would not have my magazine based in California, I would have it somewhere where real dirt actually exists in great amounts, like Montana, or Canada, I don't know, just an opinion.
The big reasons that all the magazines are located in California are;
Close to all of the Big 4 US Distributors.
Most of the accessory manufacturers are located there.
Good weather year round.
It's know as the motocross capital of the world.
While these can be useful, they are not the be all and end all... I agree that the dirt out there is not quite the same as in other parts of our country... many areas of the country have actual dirt!! lol
The issues are that it's more difficult to get bikes to test and no one really thinks that a magazine could do well here. Although the one exception is Racer X, but they have chosen to report more on the lifestyle than on the machines of motocross.
A few of you have also brought up a very good point, man of the dealers have been selling out of the two-strokes... just keep on asking your local dealers for bikes... they will pass this information onto the distributor, who will in turn (hopefully) pass it on to the manufacturers...
That is the path to a two-stroke future!
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I grew up in IL, started riding at 8, raced in central IL on two strokes. I've had both and love both (2-4 t's). I have also lived in SC and rode there as well. Now I live in CA and have to say that I miss riding in the black topsoil of IL! Although I get to ride a ton more and in more places, riding in the dirt is easier, more forgiving, and more fun then in sand and rocks. I always dreamed of riding out here in the dunes and got jealouse when I would see those videos and here that people could actually go into Chapparal vs ordering from their catalog! lol.
Saying all of that, I have to defend Cali a lil. I'm in SoCal and so I haven't been able to make a trip to northern, or even central to ride yet. They have it all here! If you want dirt, then go north. If you want hills and rough terrain, go anywhere. If you want sand and great GP racing, then stay south. It's just a matter of driving to what you want to ride. I miss home because my type of riding was in my back yard. My backyard here is desert and it's not as fun. It's harder for me because falling in the dirt or grass is nothing, but dumping it on rock filled desert terrain is kinda harsh (yeah I'm older and worry about that now). It's also harder to pull some good long wheelies when you have to dodge rocks and ride into sand patches. Still though, Cali has it all, you just gotta drive for what you want! you can even ride in the snow almost all year:)
Now for my thoughts on the 2t thing....I love them, have both, want both, and just love all motorcycles period. I'm not against any bike, ever! I have a Buell (guys either love or hate them), have a CRF450 (same thng), and a CR125. I like them all for certain reasons. You see more CRF's here then anywhere else because of the desert, that's a fact. They seem like they were built for it out here in the desert. I feel out of place on a GP track on my 2t. But I also feel out of place on a motox track on my 450. I hope to god that I can get the chance to buy a new CR 250 one day and go to a race and only hear a 2t start! It's that buzzing in your ears long after the races are over that kept me wanting more as a kid and teen. I miss that sound and know all of you do too!
I just thnk it's kinda silly to hate a bike for what it is. I get that a lot from harley guys when I go into their bike shop to get parts of help. I also get it a lil on other boards that cater towards rice rockets saying that my bike can't go 160+. Who F'n cares about one bike being a roach and another being hot!?? people ride what they like because, well, they like it right? I wouldn't pull up next to a guy who was riding a beat up 1975 whatever it is and laugh while I pulled a wheely on him. Same for the dirt....I woulnd't give a guy a hard time if he took a 1982 RM 250 off of his truck and asked if he could ride with me against my 125 or 450. I seen a nice a@@ 02 CR 250 at the gas station before Ocotillo Wells yesterday and we commented on each others bikes! It was cool to see it since they are so rare here.
This site is great because most of the racers and younger riders have only ridden 4t's and don't really know what they are missing. They come into here after riding a 2t finally and want to learn more and then they are hooked. It's a great starting place. If I were to race again, I'd be on a 250. My 450 is too tiring for me on a track. But I'd also keep it for desert racing for sure! You just can't compare when you are out going 60+ over endless woops the wind made in the sand. But back to what I originally said...it's not the bikes fault. You can't hate a 4t....or a 2t. Look back through time, we are just in a transition. it will change and when it finally does.....all the tables will be turned.
to be continued......
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Sand = CR500AF.
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Wexy21 - I hear you... hopefully I have not coma across as hating the four-strokes, because that is not true. They are fine machines and have many uses.
My beef comes from the fact that the manufacturers and AMA have created lopsided rules which have all but eliminated two-strokes from Pro racing.
Not for nothing but giving any type of machine and almost double displacement advantage and then calling it fair, well that just rubs me the wrong way. If these bikes are so great, why can't they race using equal displacement??
As for California, I was not ragging on them so much as stating why so many magazines are based there. For all the reasons that you stated, California is great for motocross.
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If we got equal displacement, I think I would like four-strokes a lot more than I do now. Like at Woodland, for example, there was the guy racing a big four-stroke against 440 Maicos and such. He put himself at SUCH a disadvantage with all that weight and crap, you just had to feel for him. All eyes were on that guy, because they knew that if HE could win on THAT hog, everyone would know that they his skill was an epic thing to behold. As John said, a lot of the hostility for four-strokes comes from the fact that they represent "the man" and are allowed to cheat on a daily basis. Everyone wants to root for the underdog, whether the underdog belongs in that position or not.
So yeah, I'd certainly have more respect for four-strokes if they would just stop cheating.
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I have a friend who's considering getting a 250SX, though he wants an '80s Husky more. The main advantage is financing, apparently, even though the KTM is more than twice as expensive. If he does decide to get the KTM over the Husky, though, it sounds like they might not even have one for him. Crazy.
LOL... it is a no brainer! He is helping the 2 stroke cause and will have some resale value and won't look like a trailer park goon rider :P
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I have a friend who's considering getting a 250SX, though he wants an '80s Husky more. The main advantage is financing, apparently, even though the KTM is more than twice as expensive. If he does decide to get the KTM over the Husky, though, it sounds like they might not even have one for him. Crazy.
The 250SX is a very popular machine. It come standard with many of the aftermarket goodies that most of us would purchase in the near future, (none of us leave our bikes stock). If his local dealer does not have one in stock, they may be able to locate one for him, or he can search other dealers and have it shipped to him.
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I have a friend who's considering getting a 250SX, though he wants an '80s Husky more. The main advantage is financing, apparently, even though the KTM is more than twice as expensive. If he does decide to get the KTM over the Husky, though, it sounds like they might not even have one for him. Crazy.
LOL... it is a no brainer! He is helping the 2 stroke cause and will have some resale value and won't look like a trailer park goon rider :P
I never get the resale-value thing. It's like people think that you'll lose money if you buy vintage more than buying something new. The prices of late '70s - early '80s bikes are actually rising. My dad got his 490 maybe six years ago for $2500, but I guarantee you it's worth three times that today. At the same time, if you buy a brand new showroom bike, park it in your garage without even turning over the motor, you'll lose a large percentage of its value just because it's not "new" in the chronological sense. And worse, when it comes to be ten years down the line, or twenty, the new bike will surely be almost worthless, just as late '80s bikes are now.
And as far as looking like a "trailer park goon rider" goes, the cure for that is simple. It's called sixth gear. Passing people (safely) at eighty-five does a lot to eliminate the "Model-T" image people have of old bikes. Besides, like I said, the '80s Husky is $3000 cheaper.
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last weekend was a pamx race at high point there was about 20 or so 2 strokes racing not including the 80's or smaller bikes. the fastest kid out there was on a kx250 and just tore up. he also was sponsored by cernics. many more on yz 125's and 250's some fast some in the middle plus some vet guys on some late 90,s yz's i was very cool. the 80 class was very cool there was 1 kid that was absolutly hauling wide open.
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It's amazing what can be done with those little chainsaw motors.
Logan Karnow wins first moto of Sr. Mini at OIR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moupVhwxT6I#)
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Wexy21 - I hear you... hopefully I have not coma across as hating the four-strokes, because that is not true. They are fine machines and have many uses.
My beef comes from the fact that the manufacturers and AMA have created lopsided rules which have all but eliminated two-strokes from Pro racing.
Not for nothing but giving any type of machine and almost double displacement advantage and then calling it fair, well that just rubs me the wrong way. If these bikes are so great, why can't they race using equal displacement??
As for California, I was not ragging on them so much as stating why so many magazines are based there. For all the reasons that you stated, California is great for motocross.
No, not at all...I like this thread, and you're right about the AMA. I took a break from moto-x and didn't know anything about what they are trying to do until last year. It's crazy that someone can make obsurd rules. But you can't put a 125 two stroke against a 125 four stroke. It would be more unfair that way vs the way it is now. A 250 two stroke can hang and beat out 450's, it really just comes down to the rider and he handles the bike. Comparing the two is no different then comparing a....well normally I'd say a two stroke vs a four stroke! LOL....you just can't. that is how different they are. If you think about it this way....a 450 would be more equal to a 250 because it fires every other stroke, so it would need the extra displacement because the smaller bike is already at the advantage. I see it as the 450's are at the disadvantage because of this. they are the ones who need to keep up. they are also heavier. So war two-stokes!
Saying all that.....I never had a grin on my face as big as I did the first time I rode a 450! I went from racing 125's and riding a few 250's to taking a long break, to jumping on a 450. So yeah, it was crazy powerfull to me. I still can't believe how much power they produce, and at such low rpm's.
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Sounds a lot like my first time on an open two-stroke. I was just going to cruise along this gravel road, so I gave it a little gas to lug up a hill, expecting the thing to sort of growl and claw its way up. Until that point, it was behaving just like my 250 so I thought it would do the same on the hill with the 390. That's not what happened! It was like surfing on this big wave of torque, the bike just lunged forward in this great unexpected leap. Just out of nowhere, right from idle, whoosh. I just started screaming, "holy shit, holy shit, holy shit!" I didn't nail the throttle or anything, I just rolled it on a little tiny bit to putter up this hill, and the thing takes off like a jet. That was the exact moment that I started really really wanting a 440. I don't know how much low-end a 450F could possibly have, but I know that the 390 could burn a roost, raise the front end toward Jupiter, and blast off into the sunset right off idle. No need to "find the powerband" here, boy.
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But you can't put a 125 two stroke against a 125 four stroke. It would be more unfair that way vs the way it is now. A 250 two stroke can hang and beat out 450's, it really just comes down to the rider and he handles the bike. Comparing the two is no different then comparing a....well normally I'd say a two stroke vs a four stroke! LOL....you just can't. that is how different they are. If you think about it this way....a 450 would be more equal to a 250 because it fires every other stroke, so it would need the extra displacement because the smaller bike is already at the advantage. I see it as the 450's are at the disadvantage because of this. they are the ones who need to keep up. they are also heavier. So war two-stokes!
Saying all that.....I never had a grin on my face as big as I did the first time I rode a 450! I went from racing 125's and riding a few 250's to taking a long break, to jumping on a 450. So yeah, it was crazy powerfull to me. I still can't believe how much power they produce, and at such low rpm's.
I agree that you can not put a 125 two-stroke against the 125 four-stroke, it would be a slaughter not a race. But at the same time the current rules are not correct either.... so what to do....
The truth is that there would be no competitive four-strokes without the absurd ruling allowing double displacement. So there is a great deal to answer for.
Just so you know the formula you stated is not quite correct, it's not just that they fire every other stroke, which is why they need to be double displacement, it's a bit more complicated than that. Although that is probably what they used to create the rule in the first place.
You are correct there are some simple changes that could be done to make racing fair. They could start with a sound rule that really does something, instead of the joke of a rule they currently have. Right now they test the bikes at a low idle, which the pipe companies know how to work around. The pipes will be at the correct level for testing, but at wide open throttle they are over 30db louder than the rule!!
Just a quick aside, a 6db increase in sound level DOUBLES how loud a sound is!!
If the AMA/FIM instituted a rule that actually lowered sound levels all the way to wide open throttle, it would open the door for two-strokes to compete in a more equal way with the current absurd displacement rules.
Another rule that the AMA/FIM instituted to give the four-strokes an advantage is Unleaded fuel. This was truly the nail in the coffin for the two-stroke. Even after the displacement advantage the two-strokes were still competitive and beating the four-strokes. With Unleaded fuel, the two-stroke can not run as high a compression that they had in the past... thus lowering the power...
Of course they also have a rule called homologation, which basically keeps any of the smaller manufacturers from being able to compete. Keeping the Pro Series as the exclusive playground for the Big 4 manufacturers. The funny thing is that this year the Big 4 are having trouble because there are still lot's of '08 and '09 model four-strokes in their warehouses, so they are not building as many. So someplace along the line they lowered the number of machines for this rule, but you can not find this information any where!!
At every turn they have made it more difficult for the two-stroke to compete...
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Octane rating is what determines how high you can run your compression. Most of the 2 stroke motors I've built came through with compression that will run great on 93 octane. But this new pump gas is no good. Pro riders are forced to use the special gas, but amatuers can run whatever.
If you think magazine test bikes are stock off the showroom floor, you're dreaming. I've talked to enough of the testers to know otherwise. If you think one of the big 4 is going to let a bike get tested without a crew of technicians tagging along, you've been very misled.
The reason a lot of posts are referriing to the 81 and up Maico's can be directed right to a photo on this site with photos of the new Honda and 81 Maico laid over each other showing the similarities between the two. If the bike is that outdated why does the 'new' Honda share so much of the frame/chassis dimensions?
Dissing the new Maico's because the fenders are 'Outdated' is the same ignorant thinking that got this whole 4 stroke steamroller going in the first place. There are only three things that should be considered when buying a new bike; engine performance(meaning ridability, not peak power), handling, and durability. Being close to the dealer is not a reason, nor is if RC is riding one. I have an aluminum framed CR250 2stroke and have not had to worry about durability, it doesn't handle as well as my 81 Maico but it's not bad, and the low to mid power is great for a 250.
Equal displacement and get rid of that foolish homo. rule.
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"Of course they also have a rule called homologation,"
good points above but I do believe in this rule....it's the same in all motorsports. It gave us the Ford Thunderbolt (my fa'v car) and the Daytona! Thank God for that rule! lol. Sucks for the little guy....but that rule has been around longer then some of the little guys. It would be cool to see ATK and Maico compete, and all the others, but it'll never happen. It would however make people like the riders more then their bikes...There would be so many bike choices to pick that fans would focus more on how well the rider does. Atleast that's what I thnk.
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"Of course they also have a rule called homologation,"
good points above but I do believe in this rule....it's the same in all motorsports. It gave us the Ford Thunderbolt (my fa'v car) and the Daytona! Thank God for that rule! lol. Sucks for the little guy....but that rule has been around longer then some of the little guys. It would be cool to see ATK and Maico compete, and all the others, but it'll never happen. It would however make people like the riders more then their bikes...There would be so many bike choices to pick that fans would focus more on how well the rider does. Atleast that's what I thnk.
While I do understand where you are coming from in regards to the rule, it is not in the spirit of competition. Not only that but it gives both the manufacturers and the general public the wrong impression about the true value of the products they manufacture.
You need look no further than the whole debacle that is called the American car industry. It seems as though they decided to build vehicles that they could make the highest profit on and did not really do the R&D needed to build great cars. So the manufacturers from other countries made huge headway into the market, in effect taking the lions share of the sales away from the Big guys....
But the Big guys didn't seem to care because they were making big profits. But when your thinking is so small market shifts have a huge effect, so when gas was selling at almost $5 per gallon, which vehicles do you think were left on dealers lots? Yup the big SUV money makers...
In the meantime Toyota became the number one selling car in America...
Why, because they made cars that the American people wanted at the time.
The same with motocross machines, how do we know we are getting the very best? We don't...
Just as an aside the homologation rule used to be set at 400 machines of each size had to be imported to the country. Now that has been lowered, although no one from the AMA is talking about it... from reports I've heard that the limit is now 50!! This is in the realm of where the smaller manufacturers could compete...
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i was at the track yesterday and there were plenty of 2 strokes. this is the first time in the last 5 years i can honestly say it was a close 50/50 split. my buddies and i counted. of course there's always the chance that they all happened to show up that day at that track.
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Going back a few posts, I have to disagree with you guys saying that we can't have a 125 two-stroke against a 125 four-stroke. My approach is that there's no point in trying to make the two fair. It'd be like trying to make steam engines and diesel engines have a fair economic footing by deciding how much free money to give to steam operators. If you stop the flow of handicap money, the steamers wouldn't be able to compete. It would be unfair. But you know what? That doesn't really matter. Morally and logically, all engines should be put on an equal footing to compete, whether economically on the rails or through rules on the track. If someone comes onto the MX scene with a Wankel rotary engine and wipes out all the two-strokes at equal-displacement, that'll suck for us, but we will have been beaten fair and square. There is a big difference between fair rules and fair results. Fair rules lead to relentless competition to bring better and better products. Fair results means relentless pushing to convince Big Brother that the Other Guy's bike is too good.
As I've said elsewhere, I think it should break down this way.
125 Class: Any naturally-aspirated, single-cylinder internal combustion engine less than or equal to 125cc displacement, must homologate.
250 Class: Any naturally-aspirated, single-cylinder internal combustion engine greater than 125cc and less than or equal to 250cc displacement, must homologate.
500 Class: Any naturally-aspirated, single-cylinder internal combustion engine greater than 250cc and less than or equal to 500cc displacement, must homologate.
Open Class: Run what ya brung. Any displacement, any engine type, any number of cylinders. Jets, electrics, turbocharged, Buick V-8s, whatever you think will work. No traction control, no homologation.
The Open Class would be incredible. You'd have a massive search to find the ultimate go-fast holy grail. DI two-stroke? Turbocharged rotary? Stroked 426 Hemi? Who knows?! It would be battled out on the track in lap times and hospital rooms. Anything too crazy would hurt lap times and maybe lead to bad press (if the bike blows the rider into goo, for example) so they'd be cautious to make 8500hp bikes. It would bring motocross back into the spotlight as a properly innovative and cutting-edge sport. I think the technology might be able to exceed F1. And with the other classes, homologation would be set on a factor other than raw numbers, so that smaller manufacturers could participate. Perhaps old NASCAR style, with a bike or two per dealership required production, although that'd have to be adjusted with internet sales.
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Just been reading this:
I just returned from my yearly visit to the GasGas factoryâ?¦.saw the 4-stroke again. It's almost done, all they have to do is to finish the final head design and figure out the mapping for the fuel injection system. Not muchâ?¦.however, due to the economy, which is really bad in placeEurope,
they have put the project on hold for the short future. IF the economy comes back, they will resume the final testing next summer and it will be a 2011 model.
Unemployment in placecountry-regionSpain is running 23% right nowâ?¦.pretty incredible! Lots of small businesses are gone, including some of the ones that made parts for the factory. They had to really work to find other sources of these parts from other business, which took awhile, which is why the bikes are late this year.
The 4-stroke bikes are dead in placeEurope. Too high an initial cost and also a high repair cost. Two stroke enduro and trials bikes are coming back rapidly over there.
When it comes down to comparing all the qualities of 2-stroke verses 4-stroke, the ONLY advantage the 4-stroke has (and it's small) is better traction in slippery conditionsâ?¦.that's it. The factory engineers and riders all say that the 2-stroke is far superior.
Montesa just closed their new factory just outside of placeCityBarcelona and laid off 250 workers. Guess that says somethingâ?¦.their trials team will end after 2010. (posted Dec. 22, 2009)
http://www.thewhimsicalwagon.com/eurodirt/id248.htm (http://www.thewhimsicalwagon.com/eurodirt/id248.htm)