Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: coblefutch on June 27, 2011, 05:28:50 PM
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Just a hypothetical, if Reed, Dungy, and Villipoto were all racing 250 2 strokes in the 450 class would they still be sitting atop the points? Does their talent get them to the front more than the slight advantage in hp and torque? Nothing against Jeff Gibson but does he finish any better when riding a 450?
Until a top 5 level racer shows up on a 250 2 stroke will we really see what is possible.
I think that Reed on a YZ250 would still finish top 3. That will never happen though cause the top guys will never be allowed to do that. Too bad that we never got to see Cedric Soubeyras, he might have had the talent to scare someone.
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Talent may not trump all else, but it does a few xtra HP.
I would say most of the top 5 would be top 5 regardless of 250/450.. If they know how to ride them, most of them do. :)
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Villopoto has a works kx250 i believe kawasaki built for him while he was injured last year, itd be cool if he showed up to a national on that, then we'd know for sure
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I think if you had Reed,Dungy and Villipoto on 250's and K'dub on a 450, K'dub would win.
Not by much but I just think a 450 has to much power & traction.
I don't think that the very "best" riders (on a 250) would beat a very "good" rider (on a 450).
Would be nice to find out. :-\
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I was reading that Ricky Carmichael would possibly like to ride in the 2012 SX race in Vegas for the 1 million dollar prize money & I would more than love to see him do it on any 250 2-stroke! I think he still could win races on any of the modern bikes! Probably will never happen but I sure would love to see that!!! :P ;D :D :o
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Carmichael developed a cardio problem after he stopped racing... Idk if he can still go the whole moto
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The other thing to consider is that those 450 4$'s are big money/big power engines. No one is out there is on a box stock motor. Even with all the hype about Chad Reed being a "privateer", he invested "millions of dollars of my own money" (in his words) in setting up his team and had a lot of help along the way. He especially noted "engines from Pro Circuit".
Not that the 2T's are not just as expensive. I remember when Ronnie Tichenor went to race in Japan. He said that once he got off the factory ride, it was IMPOSSIBLE to get those power plants and it was impossible to compete without them. He went to Japan because there he could make a living at racing. Even with the AMA's claiming and production rules, you couldn't get the tech. Eventually, Pro Circuit and others started building equal or near equal equipment but it is still out of the price range of most Pro riders.
Motocross may still be one of the few motorsports that the driver/rider is the largest percentage of the equation but at the pinnacle of the sport, the percentage that is equipment is greater. There are 4 parts to the equation but it must all equal 100% to win; Talent, Ability (strength, endurance etc.), equipment, and luck. Drop 5% and you are back to racing Arenacross.
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You don't have to look back very far in AMA history for your answer. When Windham made his return to the line on a CRF450 while everyone else was on 250 2-strokes, he gave RC fits for most of the season. Windham is a strong outdoor rider, but when you leveled the playing field RC got his second perfect season. Second example is look at how Stewart struggled while Kawi kept him on a 250 an extra year after everyone else went to the 450. Yes he ran up front but when speed among people is pretty equal, the extra power of the 450 makes a difference. Especially now that the bikes are down to the weight limit, which was certainly not the case 5 or 6 years ago.
As for Cedric Soubeyras, I dunno.. I wouldn't hold my breath on him lighting the world on fire especially outdoors. He raced the French GP a few weeks ago and managed a single point between 2 motos. SX would have been anyone's guess, but I still say he'd have trouble making the main at best.
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You don't have to look back very far in AMA history for your answer. When Windham made his return to the line on a CRF450 while everyone else was on 250 2-strokes, he gave RC fits for most of the season. Windham is a strong outdoor rider, but when you leveled the playing field RC got his second perfect season. Second example is look at how Stewart struggled while Kawi kept him on a 250 an extra year after everyone else went to the 450. Yes he ran up front but when speed among people is pretty equal, the extra power of the 450 makes a difference. Especially now that the bikes are down to the weight limit, which was certainly not the case 5 or 6 years ago.
As for Cedric Soubeyras, I dunno.. I wouldn't hold my breath on him lighting the world on fire especially outdoors. He raced the French GP a few weeks ago and managed a single point between 2 motos. SX would have been anyone's guess, but I still say he'd have trouble making the main at best.
Agreed.
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The biggest problem with bringing the 2 strokes back now is that they are now 5 or so years behind in development on the highest racing level.
Even if DI becomes a reality and it is a big positive, we will still need quite a few years until they get the best out of them.
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Even if DI becomes a reality and it is a big positive, we will still need quite a few years until they get the best out of them. [\quote]
Disagree. If the AMA and FIM wanted "fairness", they could equate them with the flick of the pen:
Change the classes back to 125, 250 and 500 cc and not give a handicap to the 4$.
...and if I were king, I'd add an emissions test to tech inspection along with an enforcable noise rule. With this rule, I could "brag" about how GREEN the sport is, yada yada.
And even if they didn't, and if the stories are true about DI, it's all that the 250 2T's need to be the equal of the 450 4$. They are only a little behind now. Not the great leaps between a modern 2T and say an XR400.
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The biggest problem with bringing the 2 strokes back now is that they are now 5 or so years behind in development on the highest racing level.
Even if DI becomes a reality and it is a big positive, we will still need quite a few years until they get the best out of them.
Development schmellopment, give Mitch Payton a two stroke and you'll think they never left.
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They will need some chassis work more than anything. Was talking to a guy that is a pro fmx rider, travels around oz doing shows an stuff. They used to be sponsored by yamaha so he rode a yz 250 but they have been taken over by Kawasaki and they let him test the new 250f and 450f and he said the 250f was better in the air than his yz
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They will need some chassis work more than anything. Was talking to a guy that is a pro fmx rider, travels around oz doing shows an stuff. They used to be sponsored by yamaha so he rode a yz 250 but they have been taken over by Kawasaki and they let him test the new 250f and 450f and he said the 250f was better in the air than his yz[\quote]
That is surprising since most FMX guys are still on 2-strokes. As for chassis developement, I don't see the need. Shock development is the same between types and Race Tech et al have that covered. Only the frames have not been updated so really, what has changed in the last 10 years?
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My TM's cutting edge
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If the 2Ts were allowed to run the leaded fuel they used to be able to run, then it would be interesting. I'd love to see it happen, or even better, sneak a 300cc smoker in there. That would even the playing field a little.
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It would be nice to see a top talent ride a CR500AF in the Monster Energy Cup!
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DI + Eric Gorr = affordable, reliable bike which is performance wise beyond anything we have seen to date.