Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: 2smoker on March 01, 2011, 11:00:46 AM
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Racing 4 junk this year in Germany. KTM 350. :-[ But Back in October on U.S. sole for Supercross on a 250cc two stroke Yami or KTM.!!!!!!
http://www.motoverte.com/site/des-news-de-cedric-soubeyras-58170.html (http://www.motoverte.com/site/des-news-de-cedric-soubeyras-58170.html)
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I completely agree....the KTM350 is junk.
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Man, KTM should be ashamed of themselves!
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is he gonna be back for a full season or just a few races? Either way in 2012 between TSM and Cedric theyll be some 2strokes in the mains
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:P let's, some smokers'll be competing next year, my bro inlaw races oldtimers and has swithed to the KTM SX250 this year, he's been on 450 thumpers for a long time. He actuallyt said he was getting bored riding the 450's, dump'r into 3rd and ride it like you stole it.....with the SX250 he'll up and down the gears like a yoyo = fun.... :P
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Racing 4 junk this year in Germany. KTM 350. :-[ But Back in October on U.S. sole for Supercross on a 250cc two stroke Yami or KTM.!!!!!!
http://www.motoverte.com/site/des-news-de-cedric-soubeyras-58170.html (http://www.motoverte.com/site/des-news-de-cedric-soubeyras-58170.html)
its his loss, he will melt away in to the 4 stroke also rans.
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is he gonna be back for a full season or just a few races? Either way in 2012 between TSM and Cedric theyll be some 2strokes in the mains
At the moment, I aint holding my breath. Things seem to be dwindling for two strokes at the top level, rather than rapidly improving. I do hope that we see that change, but at the moment, it doesn't look like it. Here in Australia, even now you can race a 250 two stroke in the lites class, it doesn't look like we will have any top riders on two strokes for the nationals. That is disappointing. Even now at the amateur level, the rules allow equal displacement, and the last club day I did a couple of weeks ago, still only had a couple of two strokes on the gate, and the start gate was a full 40 man field. I hope that the two stroke numbers increase over the course of this year, especially at the top level in the USA !!
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Pessimism will not get anyone very far... You can say you're being 'realistic' but the truth is that two stroke really are coming back.. I mean look around... Check out youtube.. Read some comments. Check out any two stroke video. Two strokes are kicking ass. The only reason that junk is still around is because of the factories. Seriously, they tried and tried to get two strokes out but to no avail. Some even totally stopped two stroke production. But they are still around and gaining ground. What does that mean to you? To me it says a lot. I don't know how to put this the way I feel exactly, but you just can't purge something that is simply better than what you are trying to replace it with. Even if it makes you more money, you will never totally purge it. We may be a dumb society as a whole but as long as there are a few logical ones out there who have voices, we can make a difference.
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Pessimism will not get anyone very far... You can say you're being 'realistic' but the truth is that two stroke really are coming back.. I mean look around... Check out youtube.. Read some comments. Check out any two stroke video. Two strokes are kicking ass. The only reason that junk is still around is because of the factories. Seriously, they tried and tried to get two strokes out but to no avail. Some even totally stopped two stroke production. But they are still around and gaining ground. What does that mean to you? To me it says a lot. I don't know how to put this the way I feel exactly, but you just can't purge something that is simply better than what you are trying to replace it with. Even if it makes you more money, you will never totally purge it. We may be a dumb society as a whole but as long as there are a few logical ones out there who have voices, we can make a difference.
Hey bud, if you are directly replying to my post, I am just stating how things are here in Australia at the start of this year. I am as two stroke die hard as anyone, probably more, I work in the industry, I have been involved in this website for a long time, since the two stroke mulisha days, and was looking forward to seeing a lot of two strokes on the line at the races with the rule changes here in Aus. At the moment, it hasn't been as good as I thought it would have been. So no pessimism here, just simply stating facts. And I definitely hope to see two strokes on the line of the AMA nationals this year. This is where the biggest impact can be made. Just need to have the right rider on the right bike.
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As long as the top teams in the biggest events don't put one of their riders on a 2 stroke,
nothing will radically change.
It's nice to see 2 strokes in front, at all the events wich don't get tv media attention.
But most people don't get to see this. They only broadcast pro sx and nationals!
Hardly nobody in the mainstream crowd at pro races knows these riders, or events.
Why doesn't Mitch Payton build 1 really trick 2 stroke for one of his Pro Circuit riders?
Or KTM put 1 rider on a 2 stroke...
I think it's because it's in the contracts of the pro teams to use 4 strokes.
You could use a 2 stroke according to the racing rules, but the big contracts say something else...
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Pessimism will not get anyone very far... You can say you're being 'realistic' but the truth is that two stroke really are coming back.. I mean look around... Check out youtube.. Read some comments. Check out any two stroke video. Two strokes are kicking ass. The only reason that junk is still around is because of the factories. Seriously, they tried and tried to get two strokes out but to no avail. Some even totally stopped two stroke production. But they are still around and gaining ground. What does that mean to you? To me it says a lot. I don't know how to put this the way I feel exactly, but you just can't purge something that is simply better than what you are trying to replace it with. Even if it makes you more money, you will never totally purge it. We may be a dumb society as a whole but as long as there are a few logical ones out there who have voices, we can make a difference.
Hey bud, if you are directly replying to my post, I am just stating how things are here in Australia at the start of this year. I am as two stroke die hard as anyone, probably more, I work in the industry, I have been involved in this website for a long time, since the two stroke mulisha days, and was looking forward to seeing a lot of two strokes on the line at the races with the rule changes here in Aus. At the moment, it hasn't been as good as I thought it would have been. So no pessimism here, just simply stating facts. And I definitely hope to see two strokes on the line of the AMA nationals this year. This is where the biggest impact can be made. Just need to have the right rider on the right bike.
Yes, you're dead right - Your're just stating the facts, as they are.
And you're dead right about the need for 2ts to be in the premier series (in Europe and) the States, to get a quicker uptake of 2ts. It would take equivalency at those levels to allow a rider on a 2t to be going into battle armed for the job. Until then, the bigger 4ts rule the roost
Most younger blokes, who are the racers in our major series here, have little experience on bigger 2ts, and much of that will be when they've gone up against the bigger 4ts - not a great way to be convinced, as a rider, of the viability of racing a 2t. I did a few months at one of OZ's suspension 'experts' (what a joke that is -), and the young apprentice there was whining about / dreading the coming rebuild of his 250f - I said, "lets go out and get the same manufacturers 2t engine, and I'll put it into your chassis" - he looked at me as if I was an axe murderer, so convinced he was of the superiority of his 4t engine. Thicker than 2 short planks, I kid you not. He is the sort of young, competent (from what I gathered) rider, who makes up the field at racing, with no chance of the big deal, but with enough contacts in the industry to easily subsidize his racing, no matter if he's on a 4t or 2t. And the attitude he showed is another, big part of the lack of 2ts out there.
Sponsors , the industry, is geared for 4ts. To get a good deal, through a shop, on a bike, the shop , if it's lucky, can get a 'race support price' from a distributor, to help the rider and give the shops a 'Team'. The shops really only have 4ts to sell and promote, just like the distributors. KTM and Yamaha, are the only , real quantity sellers of 2ts, and they sell whatever they can get.
Whilst our MC market has had Nothing like the downturn the US, and other markets have had, the manufacturers are churning out current 4ts, having a lot languishing in storage, so they sure as hell have little incentive to push 2ts, be they current models (if they have any) or make new 2ts that we are so desperate for.
So the shop support riders - the majority of riders out there in our racing in OZ, plus the bigger teams, have 4ts to ride - that's how it is. I wish KTM would have at least one rider on a 250SX, but, they need to sell the 4ts. I wish Yamaha would do so too, but it's the same scenario.
The Big Hope I have, is that the coming in of the Euro4 stds in 2012, will finally bring us the much hoped for modern 2ts - but, I admit, I haven't chased up the Euro 4 rules to see if they are harsher than the current Euro3 rules are, which KTM and others, currently pass quite easily with their 2ts. 2ts are coming back, but much moreso in off road. DFI, AST, AR, whatever tech that a manufacturer chooses to keep 2ts as being able to be legally sold, for road use - which is very important in many markets - will benefit all riders. And things, that "hard man" 2t die hards might scorn , like electric start, And oil injection, are the sort of thing that will get people on 2ts. It's not just the capacity advantages the 4ts have that gave them the edge, it the magic button that really got so many off roaders on 4ts - no longer needing to become one of the people who knew how to start a hot 4t in the bush, opened the market for 4ts dramatically.
I have a bit of a different outlook on the lack of 2t "dominance" in racing, where equivalency has been granted.
Far from the destruction of the dominant 4ts, it's made little difference (if only because of lack of numbers).
This Is A Good Thing.
It makes those that say the 4ts would be wiped out in racing look disingenuous, if not stupid, so undermines the supposed need to retain the capacity advantages. As I said, a good thing. Show irrefutable evidence that equivalency is not the end of the world, and it makes it harder to justify retaining such stupid rules.
I for one, am rather glad we haven't seen a sudden blitzing of the 4ts, when we've got equivalency - it gives us a realistic chance of it being granted, sooner, rather than later, at the higher levels of the sport - the levels that influences buyers (especially new riders), and therefore, manufacturers to produce what the buyers want.
As for Cedric - he's a young, talented racer, who is trying to make a living from racing. He has to take the best deal he can get, and it's currently inevitable that it will mean he rides a 4t. KTM seriously lost the plot there, as he got an inordinate amount of exposure for them. But there's the rub - exposure for a bike they make less of, whose sale takes away sales from the 4ts they have put so much money into. It's not hard to see why he's on a KTM350. I assume, still with Sarholtz?
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While the 4T engine retains it's iron clad grip on the upper echelons of MX 2ts have won a number of offroad events overall both in the U.S. and Europe in the last short while so it's not all doom and gloom.As well,a number of members overseas and in N.A. have reported substantially increased 2T participation at club levels so change is in the air.
Last night I was viewing the classifieds - 06 Husky TC510 $3000 and every similar KTM 300 was $800 to a grand more,used 4Ts aren't moving anymore.
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I definitely hope to see two strokes on the line of the AMA nationals this year. This is where the biggest impact can be made. Just need to have the right rider on the right bike.
I hate to pee in anyones cheerios but your not going to see any 2t on any line at any Pro Nationals this year in the US. They could put Dungey out there and he would still get thrown out the door. The motorcycle simply isnt competitive at that level anymore. Sad but true.
Supercross is the best chance to see a 2t in pro racing and even then I think the only ones your going to see will be doing backflips. As Ive said many times on here, 2 strokes are done racing motocross at the professional level in the US.....atleast for now.
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I am giving KTM the benefit of the doubt. They are lobbying for the AMA to reduce the four stroke cc limit to 350. And they aren't just "talking" about it, but they put their money where their mouth is with the 350F.
It is a longshot, but if their efforts produce a reduction in cc's to 350 across the board, could you think of a better time to drop the Direct Injection 250 two stroke bomb!?!?
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Exactly, KTM is putting spotlight on the 2 strokes.
Did you guys forget about the interview I did with Mike Sleeter, he will be on a 250SX in a few nationals..
Just have patience, the 2 stroke will be back.
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Exactly, KTM is putting spotlight on the 2 strokes.
Did you guys forget about the interview I did with Mike Sleeter, he will be on a 250SX in a few nationals..
Just have patience, the 2 stroke will be back.
Yeah I still dig that up for a good read.
Guys, idk what type of racing you're watching... I don't think you're getting this... But two strokes are winning 75-90% of the races here. Who said it's all about the pro industry? Because its obviously not. They make an impact yes, but they can't purge a better machine. It's simple. I made a whole video to express my point and you don't see it? Two strokes ARE here. Two strokes ARE winning. 250D 1st 2nd and 3rd. 250C 1st, 2nd, and 4th. 250B 1st, 2nd, 3rd. (those clips I used were from moto 1 & 2, they were doing this consistently) Those are real results. I didn't make them up. I filmed it all. If someone new to the sport comes to the track and sees all these pingers leading the pack... What are they going to go buy? This is a process of momentum. We're adding weight and velocity every day. My buddy was consistently winning 250C on his 125. He was kicking their butts. A few weeks later I saw the guys he was whuping on 250 2t's. Hmmmm....
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It would help a lot if the smaller (euro) 2 stroke brands finally get allowed worldwide.
An engineer at KTM said their 2 strokes with carbs will even pass the Euro5 standards.
So i'm a bit reluctant to all the supposed upcoming (direct) injection types.
We keep hearing a lot of great talk, but no serious confirmations. (well, not yet...)
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is he gonna be back for a full season or just a few races? Either way in 2012 between TSM and Cedric theyll be some 2strokes in the mains
At the moment, I aint holding my breath. Things seem to be dwindling for two strokes at the top level, rather than rapidly improving. I do hope that we see that change, but at the moment, it doesn't look like it. Here in Australia, even now you can race a 250 two stroke in the lites class, it doesn't look like we will have any top riders on two strokes for the nationals. That is disappointing. Even now at the amateur level, the rules allow equal displacement, and the last club day I did a couple of weeks ago, still only had a couple of two strokes on the gate, and the start gate was a full 40 man field. I hope that the two stroke numbers increase over the course of this year, especially at the top level in the USA !!
I also live in OZ. My brother is looking at a bike and wants a 250f. i am trying to convince him to go 250 2T but he wont have it. he wants to race and i said that the 250's race eachother now and he couldnt believe it. we argued about it for a while until i reminded him that robbie maddison raced one in the super x. One problem for him is he is a die hard kawasaki fan and he also said to me that he reckons he could ride a 4 stroke harder for longer. i laughed at him and called him a wimp.
the financial side of things isnt as tough in OZ as the rest of the world and people arent really feeling the pinch so rebuilding a 4T isnt that much for people to do. he also has a mate that is a mechanic so he gets all the labour for nothing anyway.
Was in yamaha the other day and asked if they sold many 2 strokes and the salesman said only to freestyle riders and even they are goin to 4T's because of the more predictable power spread. but then when yamaha want 9k for a 125 and 10k for a 250 who would buy them. the ktm store may say something different.
OZ follows the trends in the USA more than Europe does and at the moment the trend is 4T's and thats where the majority of australian riders are. it sucks but its true
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Even so, you have to look at the simplicity of the 2-stroke, regardless of economy and trends. The 2-stroke motorcycle is easier to produce and maintain than a 4-stroke. Its unatractive to some since you have to mix the gas, but is a purer race machine. We have to continue to hope and plug away, and eventually we'll come out on top.
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Well we are ment to be going riding this weekend weather permitting and he will be riding his mates 250f. My goal will be to spank him and show him the superior machine.
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What about a KTM 150? It's lightweight and will spank any 250F.
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hopefully I will be racing a few nationals this summer on my RM, I plan too, just depends if I can lose enough weight by then
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that reminds me of a story burn, here in Texas at nocona mx there is this straight section and me and my buddy(he rides ktm 250f) its a with a right handed 180 its not tight pretty long and wide that goes into a straight thats probably 300 yds long that goes in to this step up thats impossible to over jump the landing just goes forever. So I was curious how fast that dam tractor really was we went through it the first time hit the turn in third at the exit click up to 4th halfway down the straight click 5th so we do this a couple times and pull off the track and I told him "dude give it everything its got" so we go down the straight in 5th and i can see his throttle is cranked to the lock and looked over and yelled i still have more bitch lol put my butt a little over the back fender and tried to twist the grip off of my 150. The power of my bike has shocked me on more than 1 occasion. Also both bikes are 09's so its not like some clapped out 250f
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He is too much of a pansy. He is a Kawasaki fan boy an is excited over their new fork an reckons he doesn't want to mix his fuel. I am trying to convince him an another mate to go 150 but looks like they will go the tractors. Oh well, when they do I will just have to roost the shit out of them
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Exactly, KTM is putting spotlight on the 2 strokes.
Did you guys forget about the interview I did with Mike Sleeter, he will be on a 250SX in a few nationals..
Just have patience, the 2 stroke will be back.
Your right Charles I forgot about Sleeter. He probably has a pretty good chance of making one to.
I agree KTM has really put their best foot forward in developing some good 2 strokes. Hopefully itll pay off
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To me it doesn't matter who KTM puts on it, or how they do.
I'm just happy the are putting it on the track, and taking a different route than the "big" 4.
The Big 4 to me is KTM, TM, Gas Gas, Maico. with several others following up the rear. :)
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Exactly, KTM is putting spotlight on the 2 strokes.
Did you guys forget about the interview I did with Mike Sleeter, he will be on a 250SX in a few nationals..
Just have patience, the 2 stroke will be back.
Your right Charles I forgot about Sleeter. He probably has a pretty good chance of making one to.
I agree KTM has really put their best foot forward in developing some good 2 strokes. Hopefully itll pay off
Really? didn't think sleeter had made a main before, even when he was on a 450
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Exactly, KTM is putting spotlight on the 2 strokes.
Did you guys forget about the interview I did with Mike Sleeter, he will be on a 250SX in a few nationals..
Just have patience, the 2 stroke will be back.
Your right Charles I forgot about Sleeter. He probably has a pretty good chance of making one to.
I agree KTM has really put their best foot forward in developing some good 2 strokes. Hopefully itll pay off
Really? didn't think sleeter had made a main before, even when he was on a 450s.
You are right. Sleeter hasn't qualified before. Even on a 450. So hopefully he pulls his finger out of his ass and gets on the gas and qualifies on the 250SX.
And to Chump 674, it was Robbie Marshall that rode the YZ 250 here in the Super X. He was good enough to get a ride with Coastal KTM, so will also be on a 350 SX-F for this years nationals and super X. Will ride a 250SX for his freestyle events. He was one guy that could have got some wins on a two stroke at the very top level. Shame we wont get to see it !!
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that reminds me of a story burn, here in Texas at nocona mx there is this straight section and me and my buddy(he rides ktm 250f) its a with a right handed 180 its not tight pretty long and wide that goes into a straight thats probably 300 yds long that goes in to this step up thats impossible to over jump the landing just goes forever. So I was curious how fast that dam tractor really was we went through it the first time hit the turn in third at the exit click up to 4th halfway down the straight click 5th so we do this a couple times and pull off the track and I told him "dude give it everything its got" so we go down the straight in 5th and i can see his throttle is cranked to the lock and looked over and yelled i still have more bitch lol put my butt a little over the back fender and tried to twist the grip off of my 150. The power of my bike has shocked me on more than 1 occasion. Also both bikes are 09's so its not like some clapped out 250f
Badness! Its amazing that everyone hasn't bought more 150s. This will be my next bike. Good story, pretty funny!
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The unfortunate reality right now is that there is absolutely no support for a rider on a 2-stroke. Until the AMA rule change there probably won't be much support for pro racers (even though everyone wants to see it).
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I am giving KTM the benefit of the doubt. They are lobbying for the AMA to reduce the four stroke cc limit to 350. And they aren't just "talking" about it, but they put their money where their mouth is with the 350F.
It is a longshot, but if their efforts produce a reduction in cc's to 350 across the board, could you think of a better time to drop the Direct Injection 250 two stroke bomb!?!?
I've not read of KTM lobbying for this, Anywhere.
Lluongo put up a 350cc limit a few years ago, but for once, the Japanese companies used their power for the better and told him where to go.
The Premier class should be as it was years ago - over 250 (though it might have been over 251/256/290 ,?, I'm not sure) through to a maximum CC limit. I'd have no problem seeing the limit being 450, but I'd like it bigger. Not for 500cc 2ts to return - there is absolutely No Need for that - , mainly so, if a company felt they could produce an ultra light, 2/3 spd. monster 4t (or , I guess, 2t), that was all about torque, and Not revs, as it is now, they could do so. I grew up with a dad into CCMs, and have fond memories of his last one, a 4 valve, 3 spd. 580. I'd love to see a couple of genuine, big boomers out on the track, amongst the rev happy 4ts, and modern 2ts.
The 500 class used to have All sorts of size bikes in it, and all sorts of capacity bikes won races and the title over the years.
That's what it should return to, a variety, not a mono culture class.
Nor a dumbed down 350cc max class. Our sport has been violated enough.
If KTM were to start pushing for a 350 capacity limit, I think they would deserve all the ill will that would be directed at them.
I believe KTM are doing their thing - catering to as many potential buyers as possible - that's one of their strengths.
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Good point. The common denominator is everyone is seeing the need for a change. Even the pro riders and mechanics. No one actually likes the way it is now. Something needs to change. One of the other main things is the need for a homologation rule change.
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The unfortunate reality right now is that there is absolutely no support for a rider on a 2-stroke. Until the AMA rule change there probably won't be much support for pro racers (even though everyone wants to see it).
That may be the tuffest one to change. All the MFG's want to keep out the competiton... Imagine if a GasGas Husky or God forbid a Maico wins.... :o
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2-stroke racers will just have to get creative with sponsors. How much attention do you think a 2-stroke racer would get for a sponsor? How much attention was Cedric Soub getting? A WHOLE bunch! The chanllenge is convincing an outside sponsor. I guarantee you that a Nike sponsored KTM 250SX or YZ250 campaining the SX series would have a crazy amount of interviews, fans and attention.
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Exactly, KTM is putting spotlight on the 2 strokes.
Did you guys forget about the interview I did with Mike Sleeter, he will be on a 250SX in a few nationals..
Just have patience, the 2 stroke will be back.
Nothing against Mike Sleeter because he's a good rider, but last time he tried to qualify for nationals on a 2-stroke he didn't make the 40 man gate. The class didn't get any slower or thinner. I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing him out there.
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It would be great if he made a main, but thats not why I'm excited about it.
He said KTM is putting him in the races on an SX.. Not by his choice.
When was the last time a manufacturer PUT a 2 stroke in a national?
Progress. :)
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i think i missed that and id love to read it can you please post the link?
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Mike Sleeter isnt no slouch. It may be a long shot but he has a chance.
I know some local A riders who have made nationals.
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i think i missed that and id love to read it can you please post the link?
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/12/catching-up-with-ktm-usas-mike-sleeter-111/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/12/catching-up-with-ktm-usas-mike-sleeter-111/)
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2-stroke racers will just have to get creative with sponsors. How much attention do you think a 2-stroke racer would get for a sponsor? How much attention was Cedric Soub getting? A WHOLE bunch! The chanllenge is convincing an outside sponsor. I guarantee you that a Nike sponsored KTM 250SX or YZ250 campaining the SX series would have a crazy amount of interviews, fans and attention.
Getting creative - You're right on that Burner!
Once again, ad nausea, KTM really seemed to not get the amount of exposure CS got for them - It would have been a bare drop in the ocean of Red Bull money they have on tap to keep him out there on a 2t - they could make an absolute monster of a motor for him, with (and with No disrespect to CS), No danger of him overshadowing Cairoli or Nagl etc - he's just not at their level, in his riding ( I hope he progress's) yet.
DV Obviously saw the great exposure Moto Concepts would get from him being out there - once again, no disrespect to their 2 other SX riders out there on 4ts, but, if he hadn't got hurt, had got into mains, and stayed healthy, they / he would have received exposure that would have been wildly disproportionate to the cost of the campaign.
Perhaps CS was a victim of just disappearing into the background of the massive, all up, New effort, put into KTMs stepping it up in the US, and their continued efforts to totally dominate the GPs. No Other Factory has more commitment to racing on dirt than KTM have nowadays , and KTM have the massive financial backing of their compatriot company , Red Bull, who, would regard the vast (comparatively, in MC racing circles) amount of money they can contribute to KTMs racing, as but the tiniest amount in their overall advertising budget.
Something to keep in mind - Mike Sleeter, from what I've gathered, Is one of KTMs main US development team members, together with Casey Lytle. We should be encouraging KTM, through this website - don't slag the man when he doesn't qualify for nationals. I read in an interview with him (forget which site / mag, it was mentioned in another one, other than here, I think) that good, new things would be coming for 2ts in the 2012 model year. Together with the impending Euro 4 legislation , this Might be the start of the new KTM 2ts we've been hearing of for the last few, interminable, years.
Mind you, I just saw pictures of Knighters new 535 (that's the speculation of what it may be called) that he's using in EWC this year. It has a new engine, without a doubt, plus chassis, so they may have just pissed another massive amount of money up against the wall on their 4ts (so that brings the count of just dirt specific 4t engine modules released by them , to 8 over the last decade [including the 2 different Berg engine modules - the one piece case / barrel one, and the sloper]. Not to forget all the road bikes, and that car. All whilst they've milked the 2, 2t modules - 125/200 and 250 / 300, that can take 380 cranks/ barrels etc still, despite the slight changes they have made - for all they're worth.
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The ktm 350,s handling is crap, my pal who ownes a KTM dealership had one of those ktm crashes, where he didn,t know how it happened, a weird swamp on a landing. He raced nationals so he knows how to ride, it costed him a bunch in surgeries. Who carres about the prema Dona pro,s anyway. We need our own 2-st. series,start concentrating on our thing instead of trying to change corporite minds.
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KTM has a huge investment in the 350. From what I've read, to get the most out of the 350, it needs to be ridden like a 250 two stroke... imagine that... Cédric as we all know, knows how to get the most out of a smoker. He may be the one to put the 350 in a good light... I wish him well...
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The only thing that really comes to mind in this whole discussion, is that Cedric was doing good on a 2 stroke, and asap he will be riding a 4 stroke. He had said he would be on a 4 stroke for outdoors, but we will have to see on the indoors. He won't do any better than podiums and 1st's on a 350F in Supercross, so I see no reason he would have to change over, other than OEM's power. JMHO. KTM has my support, but if he rides a 4 stroke in Supercross, I may lose it. Because if he would have been on a full factory 2 stroke in supercross, he might have more 1st's on his shelf. He was on a privateer teams bike. As soon as he does good, time to switch?
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As soon as he does good, time to switch?
Unfortunately, Yes.
They Need to push, and sell, 4 strokes. They've put so much money into them, they need to recoup the investment
They have no trouble selling the existing 2 strokes they make. They still sell them,easily, despite the minuscule amount of development money put into them.
It's incredibly simple really - not that I like it one little bit. The factories have backed themselves into a corner, that will take a bit of imagination / lateral thinking , to get out of.
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I think your last 2 scentences have summed it up.
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Well, IMO I don't see the Big 4 going to a 350 anytime soon. I would like to get the inside info on who KTM talked to at the AMA to try and get the displacement rule to 350. The choice for KTM is, to decide if they want to keep going with their 350 even if nothing else changes, or pursue other options. I wish KTM would follow that action and aggessiveness for the 2-stroke (obviously, that's what we all want). Even so, KTM could only benefit by campaigning a 2-stroke in SX at least. It would be nice if Sleeter would convince them to offer amatuer support for 2-stroke riders (the 150 and 250). At least some kind of 2-stroke support! Everyone's scared.
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KTM Did Not lobby the AMA to try to change the capacity rules.
THough I doubt they would stand against a 350 limit , now that they have the jump on other manufacturers. ;D
It's, I feel, just an extension / distortion / Chinese whispers coming from how Steve Whitlock talked about how the horse had bolted with regards to capacity rules (I think , several times, he was quoted as saying it should have been something like 200cc 4ts / 125cc 2ts, and, 350/400 4ts vs 250 2ts.
The major companies had put their efforts into 250 and 450s - the major companies basically said no.
Lluongo (with , I think, a bit of advice from Whitlock) tried to put up a reduction from 450 to 350, approx 3 years ago. As I said, the major companies, with so much invested, And, for once, with common sense, said no. The argument that it is for safety is spurious at best. You can get hurt on any sized bike. 450s are not evil machines - either were 500s, but the 450s are definitely more usable for the average Joe, through to the fastest rider in the world. Modern 2ts will be, perhaps, even more usable than any 350 /450 4t.
Whitlock is still around and a power within the FIM and the sport , in general - he was at Phillip Island World Superbikes, dealing with tech matters recently.
Lluongo and his cohorts are the Svengali's of MX - he and the various companies he's been involved with have been behind the various rule changes / format changes etc of World MX. All along making vast amounts of money, while trashing the sport. I don't give a damn about the fancy pits , 18 wheelers, sponsor hospitality suites etc that he, and some others claim have improved the sport. They all would have come naturally, with the 'blinging' of society / all sports, that has been a natural progression. TV / internet coverage would still have happened. The crowds, and comparative exposure of the sport, really hasn't risen much, if at all, when compared to what it was 30 years ago. Like all sports, it has just got more glitzy. Look at videos of GPs of earlier eras - dependent on the country, the crowds were massive, there were more riders able to make a living at racing, and general societies recognition of MX was just the same as it is now, other than the rise of SX - the 'dog and pony' side of our sport.
Lloungo has been quoted as wanting to bring the starting gates at GPs down to 20, and probably has in mind that there will be only one GP class. It's all about making money for him, no matter what he says about loving the sport. Most anyone would 'love' the sport they have so much control over, that makes them so much money, and gives them so much power. A world championship sport that has NO prize money, on the argument that it's being put back into the sport - he's really got things worked out.
The KTM 350, is a good thing - it fits between the 250 and 450, and is representative of how KTM goes for as many niches as they can. The Real sales from the 350 will come from the Off Road world - they will sell so many to the average bloke.
Rant over. You may have noticed I'm p****d off at what's happened to our sport, largely under the auspices of Lluongo
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I am not surprised they got cedric on the 350. Ktm have put a lot of money into it with some mixed results. It takes a different kind of style to go fast on a 350 and coming from a two stroke cedric might have what it takes. They are selling well in oz tho. Ktm are reluctant to cut a deal on one as it will sell the next day.
There won't be a move to all 350's either. Even de Costa said that they are down on power an at a disadvantage I'm supercross. Makes me wonder why they Havnt home to the 450 yet. KIA ride worth more than a title?
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I wonder if Lluongo is mates with Bernie Ecclestone ? >:(
Both, self righteous pricks.
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I don't know where I got the notion, but I was under the impression that Steve Whitlock is working for/with KTM in some capacity these days? That is where I drew the "KTM pushing for 350" conclusions. I know I read this somewhere.
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I wonder if Lluongo is mates with Bernie Ecclestone ? >:(
Both, self righteous pricks.
It's not often I thoroughly agree with a Kiwi ( :o grrrrrrrrrr.....) but you couldn't be more correct. I will now be hunted down by the 'never be nice to a Kiwi' police.
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I don't know where I got the notion, but I was under the impression that Steve Whitlock is working for/with KTM in some capacity these days? That is where I drew the "KTM pushing for 350" conclusions. I know I read this somewhere.
Bloody Hell, if you're right with that, It IS a cause for concern. That bloke has got some serious pull in racing, KTM have massive pull in GPs - there may well be something in it.
I'm normally quite a critic of the undue influence that the big manufacturers have over racing, but on the watering down of the premier class, I'd back Honda ( the Big Gorilla) and the other mfrs all the way in keeping the class limit up at 450, even though, for the manufacturers, it would be more about their profits, than respect for the MX1 class.
I'll have to do some further checking, though I've not seen a sign of him being in KTMs payroll. I do know, his views (ironically, in a belated, "we royally stuffed up the capacity limits" sense, not Lluongos "450s are too fast" bs) can mesh well with Lluongos agenda - and the combo of Youth Stream, and a bloke with decades of influence, at very high levels, is a very worrying thing indeed.
Ultimately, Lluongos agenda, I believe, after following his trail of destruction in MX over many years, is one of One single class at the GPs - 350s. And only 20 riders on the gate. He wants his own version of MotoGP. 250s, like the MX3 class - (500/650) would be reduced to a sideshow. All in the pursuit of the $$$$$$ - with no care for the sport.
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That is what we will get, when idiots are in control....
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It's not often I thoroughly agree with a Kiwi ( :o grrrrrrrrrr.....) but you couldn't be more correct. I will now be hunted down by the 'never be nice to a Kiwi' police.
Where has the love gone bearorso ? ;)
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I completely agree....the KTM350 is junk.
any 4 pig is junk ;) :P
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Where has the love gone bearorso ? ;)
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Ask it to Mr. Giuseppe Luongo... or Mr. Whitelock.
I have to admit, pro racing has gone crazy.