Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: MCGRIDDLE_321 on February 22, 2011, 01:03:56 PM
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i was out training with the well known Lance Smail last thursday, we got to bench talkin about 2 strokes. He told me that honda will have a 2012 cr250. im not sure how true this is but i do trust his word, coming from an old national pro who has alot of connections. im pumped if its true.
Josh
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I wouldn't count on it. Honda has made it very clear that they will never make them again.
I don't see them going back on thier word.. again.
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i highly highly doubt it. The only company I wish bad for in motocross is honda
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I would not be surprised, however, I would be not surprised if they made steam engine either :-X. If they did make a cr85/125/150/250/500, trx250r, or even a nsr125/250/500 it would out sell anything they have out in the market. If you want to hear a possible rumor, toyota is exploring two strokes..
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He told me that honda will have a 2012 cr250
If so, i wonder if it would have a carburator ?
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Not gunna happen.
It would be the biggest about face in corporate history.
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The saving face thing is big amongst the japs.Honda is famous for coming up with a dumb arse idea and refusing to change it because it would look like they were wrong.I'd put money on the new Maico's arriving this spring before I'd put it on a Honda coming up with a new CR.
As far as that goes,I'd probably be better off putting my money on me being abducted by aliens-it would probably be a safer bet than either.
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The saving face thing is big amongst the japs.Honda is famous for coming up with a dumb arse idea and refusing to change it because it would look like they were wrong.I'd put money on the new Maico's arriving this spring before I'd put it on a Honda coming up with a new CR.
As far as that goes,I'd probably be better off putting my money on me being abducted by aliens-it would probably be a safer bet than either.
That would be a good bet, Who will sell 100 units of two stroke dirt bikes in America first Honda or Maico?
If its Honda I will take two.
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Let me see...Yes a HONDA CR250 to go along side my HONDA CR125, yep, I'll take one. ;D
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I remember Lance Smail racing 125,s in supercross, a ncy yz125 and rm125 around 1993. Honda needs to release the 85 and 125 also,I,ll take a 2012 cr 125 thank you.
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Dang, I just dumped a bunch of money into my 2000 CR 250. lol
I better start saving my pennies.
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Ford I wouldn't worry about being abducted by aliens - I'm sure they value their peace and tranquility as well! :D
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Hahahahha. :D
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Well if you think about this it makes sense. The 4 st market is screwed, the economy is screwed, the bikes are expensive, unreliable,and the MAJORITY of riders are amateurs that can't afford to race a 4st. It's in all the magazines, editorials about two strokes are fun, fast and affordable.
I do see a comeback for the two stroke and soon. If not from the "other 3", Euro bikes for sure.
Shockingly, Husaberg has two new 2st models, and if that doesn't say "shift in market trend" I don't know what else will.
KTM stock is soaring, I have yet to check on Husquavarna, but they have a great 2st line up as well. With GasGas & TM having new USA distributors there's 2 more brands that will fill the void that "Sukawahonda" has created.
It might not be 2012 when we see a new CR, but I"ll bet we see the YZ line get a revamp, and new KX & RM's by 2015 with more ethanol friendly, and possibly, direct injection motors. I hope they keep the chro-mo frames, But I doubt they will, and as long as they don't get as heavy as the thumpers I suppose I wouldn't mind an aluminum chassis.
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I don't see Honda changing their current strategy. The have stated they are a four stroke company. They will not make an about face, even if it means more company income. That's not how the company was founded. Back in the day when the Elsinore (CR 125 and CR 250) was born, Honda really didn't want to get into two strokes, but they realized they needed a two stroke platform to be competitive. As the current rules give an unfair advantage to 4 pokes (thanks Honda), they feel they don't need the smoker to be competitive.
That's my $.02 worth.
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(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb162/ford832/office.jpg)
But it aint gonna happen.
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Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Honda a publicly traded company with a board of directors and,in their quest to maximize share prices,will push the corporation in what ever direction is necessary to achieve this goal? And if this means building 2Ts once again I'm pretty sure there is little senior management at Honda can do to prevent this.I bet Husaberg is selling every 2T they can build and this is just one more indication of a shift in consumer demand.
Hey Ford you better put on a pot of tea,looks like company is landing in the back yard! ;D
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This is a photo of the very first vehicle Soichiro Honda ever built...
(http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/1949_Honda_Dream_D-Type.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_OPLSO0zMObY/St991hTfNuI/AAAAAAAAALI/2NR1KXppNnc/s400/hondamodeld.jpg)
... weird... it only has two strokes! :P :P :P
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I agree with Myck McClung and SachsGS. It all comes down to sales numbers,you know Honda tracks the bikes parts figures. And when they see riders, spending big dollars restoring there old 2-st., they know they could have sold a new 2-st to that guy. On youtube guys just post a pic of a cr125 with 2011 plastic and 50,000 people view and comment. I think the Honda,s will hv the old chasis,with new plastic, updated suspnsion, with minor engine updates. A small 2-st. series with a big turnout,would make all the models come back.
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This is a photo of the very first vehicle Soichiro Honda ever built...
(http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/1949_Honda_Dream_D-Type.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_OPLSO0zMObY/St991hTfNuI/AAAAAAAAALI/2NR1KXppNnc/s400/hondamodeld.jpg)
... weird... it only has two strokes! :P :P :P
Nice find John, I never saw that bike before, very COOL.
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That would be fine with me but, I would still buy a TM or KTM first regardless. These two companies are a lot more serious (TM more so)
about the product than some marketing ploy. In Hondas' defence, if they do come out with a really advanced machine it will push the other mfg to get their butts moving (Yamaha). Even with Hondas' many sucesses with the 2 strokes, internally they were in deep opposition to them even in the early days.
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Even though it didnt always win the shootouts Honda had the best built 250 2t out of the bunch. I had a new cr250 and 250f for about a week a couple years ago. I ended up breaking my leg on the thumper and had to sell them both with maybe 2 hours total ride time :'(
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/scrubbin627/photo12.jpg)
The first day I rode it some jackhole ran into me and put a dent in my swingarm
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ethanol is also going to be a thing of the past as it has no benefits what so ever(It actually creates more carbon along with any other bio fuels). Some gas stations like AMPM or BP, have doubled the amount of ethanol in their gas, and are currently wreaking havoc on cars. And even if you do believe in Global warming( ;D), ethanol is not the answer.
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Also causing many riders to clean out their carb's more often than wanted. I hate ethenol. Never buy your fuel from a big fuel company. Stick with local or specialized companys
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Even though it didnt always win the shootouts Honda had the best built 250 2t out of the bunch.
The first day I rode it some jackhole ran into me and put a dent in my swingarm
Sounds pretty well built-I've never done that to a swingarm-and I've gouged them on granites.My buddy is a Honda nut and from what I've seen on his recent years,I'd definitely disagree.
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Hey Ford you better put on a pot of tea,looks like company is landing in the back yard! ;D
Oh no,not the probing thing again.... :-X :o
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Well, I have to admit, I am torn between wanting to believe that the manufacturers will see the light of 2-strokes, but reality keeps saying that it won't happen. I wonder why Smail would mention that? It seems kind of off the wall.
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I agree with Myck McClung and SachsGS. It all comes down to sales numbers,you know Honda tracks the bikes parts figures. And when they see riders, spending big dollars restoring there old 2-st., they know they could have sold a new 2-st to that guy. On youtube guys just post a pic of a cr125 with 2011 plastic and 50,000 people view and comment. I think the Honda,s will hv the old chasis,with new plastic, updated suspnsion, with minor engine updates. A small 2-st. series with a big turnout,would make all the models come back.
Seriously? Honda has long made it known they are the "eco" 4t company.Their fourstroke bikes sell well to 95% of the moto community.
Then there are their cars,outboards,generators,lawn and garden,quads etc,etc-all in fourstroke.
Do you really think a fringe group of cash strapped 2t diehard moto-tards buying up old CR's is enough to worry corporate honda about losing business and would justify a production run , R & D and an about face on corporate policy and image? I don't.The small percentage that cares wouldn't mean any more to Honda than the lint in my pocket does to me.
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if you read this interview you may get a glimpse in to mr hondas 2 stroke views
http://www.mxworksbike.com/Honda_1972_RC125M.htm (http://www.mxworksbike.com/Honda_1972_RC125M.htm)
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Very good article!
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Sounds pretty well built-I've never done that to a swingarm-and I've gouged them on granites.My buddy is a Honda nut and from what I've seen on his recent years,I'd definitely disagree.
I wasnt your normal first turn bump...I got PLOWED.
Anybody can destroy a bike by not taking care of it, your buddy probably just needs to pull a little more maintinence.
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ethanol is also going to be a thing of the past as it has no benefits what so ever(It actually creates more carbon along with any other bio fuels). Some gas stations like AMPM or BP, have doubled the amount of ethanol in their gas, and are currently wreaking havoc on cars. And even if you do believe in Global warming( ;D), ethanol is not the answer.
I just read last night that 40% of US corn production is being used for ethanol. :o
Now there is a shortage of feed for beef farmers which is putting the price of beef up. :(
Plus the shortage for foreign aid.
But i suppose if that brings down the CO output by just a little bit it does not matter if people starve.
Yep ethanol is real good. :-X
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Couple of things here. Honda is a proud supporter of the greenies who keep getting riding areas closed in Cali. 2nd, I believe in UFO's or atleast that there are life forms elsewhere, but do not believe Honda will be producing a CR250 until they can't sell any CRF250's any more. They would shoot themselves in the foot. In amateur racing, the bikes are cc for cc. I've stated before, Honda has no goal of producing two competing bikes. 3rd, Ethanol, while bad in almost every sense of common sense, will make more HP on a built bike or car. If you do not believe me, do some research. First, the BTU is much much worse, but the fact is, you consume like 30% more fuel, but only lose 20% of the power per BTU. Thus, the overall ability is higher. That may be hard to understand. But, the facts are: you can run a higher compression ratio, you can advance your timing, and you burn more to produce a higher HP rating. If you doubt this, go ask a turbo car guy what they use. Cost and HP make ethanol a great poor mans race fuel. But again, I think ethanol is stupid. Biobutanol from lawn grass would be worlds better. But won't happen. Greed rules my friends....
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I wouldn't count on it. Honda has made it very clear that they will never make them again.
I don't see them going back on thier word.. again.
;D if smokers gain ground here in the west like they are in some parts of europe mr. honda may have to eat crow or continue to lose market share, and kawi / suzi will follow the leader.. 8)
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the honda cr is my dream bike when i first get to know about motocross racing back in 91
back then, the cr is the bike to get.
but now, sad...
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Yeah TMKIWI,ethanol sucks it burns faster than nonethanol gas,it was suppose to lower the price at the pump.A few months ago the goverment passed a law saying stations can have a higher % of enthanol,unless you have a new vehicle your engine won,t last. There trying to get everyone to buy new cars,to bump the economy. There,s a ton of food made from corn,high frutose corn syrup is in everything. The largest oil basin discovery, was found in western N.Dakota last year. I called on a couple jobs there last april, they had over 500 wells producing oil. You have to bring a camper,since there,s no place to live, strange that the media won,t say a thing about billions of gallions of oil on our land.
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Sounds pretty well built-I've never done that to a swingarm-and I've gouged them on granites.My buddy is a Honda nut and from what I've seen on his recent years,I'd definitely disagree.
Anybody can destroy a bike by not taking care of it, your buddy probably just needs to pull a little more maintinence.
Nope.He does his maintenance.Honda has long lived on their reputation even when the quality slipped from what it used to be and their cars were no different but they have gotten better since Sochiro's son got booted out as ceo.
Les bought a new CRF450 in 02 when I got my 125SX.We took the first break in ride for both together.When we got back to the truck,his rear wheel was slopping all over the place.We thought initially the bearings had come out of it but it was just that all the spokes had come loose-and yes,he had checked them when he bought it.From new,the clutch lever rattled up and down like the RM's of the early 90's.Before the first ride,he took things apart to grease it and spun two of those blind nuts that those two little stupid plastic engine guards attached to.The airboxes on those all had a gap in them and would such dirt in to the engine.The swingarm chain guide was almost tissue paper thin and wore out in three rides.The trans oil ck hole was in the wrong place(it took Honda about 3 yrs to change it) so if you filled it up until oil weeped out,as per the manual,your level was too low and the kick starter would start jumping around as you rode as the idler began to seize.The push part of the push/pull throttle seized though taking it right off and lubing it with a power luber solved that-and so on and so on.
They're not a bad bike but they don't deserve the reputation they have.
The big five are the only ones I can reasonably comment on but I'd put them this way:
1-KTM
2-Yamaha
3-Honda
4-Suzuki/Kawasaki
There are some model specific exceptions to this and they all have their issues-and I know KTM had issues with a couple of theirs but they are generally bulletproof and overbuilt.Even stupid little things like the rear brake pedal-japs use a shaft and bushing,KTM uses double sealed bearings.
I never had one issue with either of my KTM's.
You're also hard pressed to beat the steel frame on the KTM's.I don't mind Aluminum frames how Yamaha does it but the big boxed frames on the other brands would bother me.Though they look stout they are actually quite thin on the outside where your knees rest.
Having worn through aluminum frame guards from my boots rubbing in short order,I can't help but wonder how thin those frames wear from grinding dirt up and down with your knees-especially if you keep the bike for a few years.
Les's old 92 CR125 was one of the best built and best working bike I've ever ridden.It was bulletproof and he couldn't kill it-despite years of abuse.
I don't think the Honda's are bad-just that they don't always deserve the reputation they have.
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Who cares about a 02 crf450 anyway,spokes come loose on every new bike. I owned or rode all the 125,s after 20 hours the only bike that feels new is the honda. I used to hate honda,s like alot of people, they handle so much better than anything made,clutch takes abuse like no other,trans. will take high rpm shifts,no clutch shifts,never pops out of gear,etc. The 06 to 011 yz125 has a problem blowing trans. gears up, a cr125 from the last 10 years will out last 5 yz trans. KTM has recent reliability issues with the 144 and 250, exploding cylinder heads,144 blows the clutch basket apart. KTM always had great motors, I never heard anyone raving about there handling,without great handling riding isn,t much fun. I had numerous surgeries and at 44, handling is the most important to me. If John Deere made the best handling bike, I,d be on a J.D. 8)
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In the end Honda is a company who wants to make money. If they feel there's a market for 2-strokes they'll come out with one. I did my part by blowing way too much money on my CR rebuild using just OEM stuff through my dealer.
That being said don't hold your breath on seeing them in pro racing. That will be 4-stroke dominated until the OEMs decide otherwise. But who cares about that, I want to ride a 2-stroke. Not watch someone else ride one on TV.
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Now there is a shortage of feed for beef farmers which is putting the price of beef up. :(
It shouldn't even be used with live stock. Corn is absolute garbage, especially the genetically altered corn.
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Who cares about a 02 crf450 anyway,spokes come loose on every new bike. I owned or rode all the 125,s after 20 hours the only bike that feels new is the honda. I used to hate honda,s like alot of people, they handle so much better than anything made,clutch takes abuse like no other,trans. will take high rpm shifts,no clutch shifts,never pops out of gear,etc. The 06 to 011 yz125 has a problem blowing trans. gears up, a cr125 from the last 10 years will out last 5 yz trans. KTM has recent reliability issues with the 144 and 250, exploding cylinder heads,144 blows the clutch basket apart. KTM always had great motors, I never heard anyone raving about there handling,without great handling riding isn,t much fun. I had numerous surgeries and at 44, handling is the most important to me. If John Deere made the best handling bike, I,d be on a J.D. 8)
I picked his 4t because that's all they make now.I could have given a similar rundown on any of his others.Yes,spokes have to settle in on everything but this was extreme.As far as who cares about it-you should-it's one of their products and speaks to manufacturing/material quality and quality control.As far as honda being the best handling bike made,you're the only person I've ever known,including honda guys,who has ever made that claim-most declare them grim for the last 10 yrs.Moreover than that,how you got from the quality of a machine to it's handling abilities is beyond me.As I said,all brands have specific model issues from time to time-especially on a new design-that's just par for the course.
FWIW,Having had them all, I have zero brand loyalty with anything and I certainly don't hate Honda.I currently ride a Yamaha simply because I do.It has it's faults but unlike some,I can see them.
The biggest difference between you and me is that you're a fanboy.I'm not.
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It shouldn't even be used with live stock. Corn is absolute garbage, especially the genetically altered corn.
I agree.
Just stating a fact that the US does.
We feed our cows grass. ;D
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I never heard of a fanboy,haha what is it Ford? Does it mean one who likes to ride crisp 125,s and rail corners. ;D I,m not mad at you, a little upset at the trucking co. I worked for last, they owe me over 2,000 dollars.
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You're no fun.What's a guy got to do to get a little reaction around here anyway :( :D
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Honda has long lived on their reputation even when the quality slipped from what it used to be and their cars were no different
Honda has that reputation because they build good shit. The cars they build are lightyears ahead of the others when it comes to longevity and build quality, my stock 250k mile Civic gets bounced off the rev limiter daily. I drove it 20 miles the other day with no water, the header was glowing red and it still runs great! Do that with your daily driver and still get 40 mpg :P
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imagine if the 2012 looked like this. i would do anything to have this bike. SO NICE!!
honda cr 250 afs (alu frame special) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFq3qTLjqm0#)
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Ford, I'm one of those who believes my 2002-07 chassis 2 strokes were the best handling bikes I've ever owned. If you know anything about me, you know I've owned well over a couple hundred bikes, since that is what I do. My bikes do ruts better than any bike I've ridden. I could never go in, gas it, and hope to keep the front end inside without feeling like I was gonna fall. These bikes handle perfectly. It is exactly why i haven't built a new 2010 or new framed CR, like the post above this. I don't know if it would be better. I don't see how, since those bikes were designed for 4 strokes. 2nd, Honda's are very reliable. It is crazy to say they aren't. Yamaha's, kawi's, Suzuki's etc are all less reliable in my history of owning them. I don't know yet about KTM. I have been chomping, but still alittle nervous about getting one. Someday soon, my guess. Now, I regress, I am anti-Honda now, because they stopped producing and actually pushed for the no 2 strokes. But to say they don't handle great and aren't reliable is just crazy. 8)
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Handling is a personal thing.If you like them,great.Most have issues with the balance and harshness though different years are different of course.My main point was build quality.With Honda,you have to talk 4t because that's all they sell now.The 250's were plagued with reliability issues.The example of my buddies CRF simply states fact and I stayed away from the engine issues he had simply because that's typical 4t,regardless of brand.For the 2t's,though they made a decent woods bike,the case reed engine was a dog compared to others.
The early aluminum frames were horrific and the suspension would jar your fillings.
I'm not saying Honda is a pos nor that they haven't built a quality,good performing motorcycle.What I am saying is that,like any others-though maybe not so much as some-they have poor design issues,build quality issues and reliability issues as well.
The Honda faithful are the only I group I know who religiously tout their machinery as being the holy grail of quality and reliability when evidence to the the contrary is staring them right in the face.
I've had them before and currently own a Honda quad and am quite happy with it.On the other hand,maybe it's just my sh!thouse luck that the Honda's I've owned have had issues just like every other brand I've owned.It figures I'd be the guy that would end up with the only 6 Honda's ever built that weren't perfect. :)
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I've raced lots of Hondas and would take a Maico or other euro bike over one any day.I haven't ridden the 01 CR250 (last of the piston ports) and I liked the 92 Mcgrath flexy flier but I definately prefer Maico handling over Honda.As well ,in terms of reliability issues,Honda has produced more the a few dogs over the years and with 35 plus years in the industry I can Yamaha has the best reliability record for Japanese machines.Just compare ATV's - I own a 660 Grizzly and have repaired just about every Honda ATV in the village (chronic shift mechanism problems).
A friend is a Honda automotive technician and has told me that the quality of Honda automobiles has slipped significantly in recent years.
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The 1st gen Honda aluminum frame was crap. Ask McGrath. He chose to go ride that PoS RM in '97 instead of staying with Honda. They got a lot better though through the years. Give me a good, light ChroMo frame any day over aluminum though.
What I would LOVE to do someday, is build a custom frame, based on my YZ's dimensions, out of ChroMo and with a Full-Floater rear end. Now THAT would be sweet!
EDIT: On second thought, I'd need to do this with an RM. Anyone have an '06-'08 RM 250 they want to donate to get this project started?
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I want that 125 :)
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The Honda faithful are the only I group I know who religiously tout their machinery as being the holy grail of quality and reliability when evidence to the the contrary is staring them right in the face.
I 2nd that.
Honda quads are big over here but people seem to ignore the stater motor issues when saying how good they are.
Remember the XR250RE ?. What a dog. Cracked heads within 10 hours.
Timming chain issues on the smaller xr's 100-185 etc.
I know sum Honda fanatics who just wont except that Honda has made anything bad.
Well they have, and so has every other manufactor.
Toyota get the same praise as well, some deserved some not.
I have never been a big Toyota fan ( no particular reason ) more of a Nissan fan, but find myself now driving 2 Toyotas. ???
I am not brand loyal I just buy what floats my boat at the time.
In the last 4 years i have had a Kawasaki/Suzuki/Yamaha/KTM/Honda/TM.
Point is there is no such thing as a perfect manufactor
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The Honda faithful are the only I group I know who religiously tout their machinery as being the holy grail of quality and reliability when evidence to the the contrary is staring them right in the face.
Could you post some links to this evidence since its staring us in the face? I cant seem to find anything. And for the record Im not a Honda guy, Im speaking from my own personal experience with everything from Honda lawnmowers to cars. Everything they build is quality
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ask a honda 4 stroke owner how they feel about their valve quality. Out of all they jap bikes other than kawi honda feel super cheap to me but I have personal issues with them so I'm sure that clouds my judgement.
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we have honda 4 wheelers that are 11 years old and been flipped in ponds and have had one ol change there entire lifes run great still
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ask a honda 4 stroke owner how they feel about their valve quality. Out of all they jap bikes other than kawi honda feel super cheap to me but I have personal issues with them so I'm sure that clouds my judgement.
my neghibor bought an 04 crf 450 it ran good first couple of hours then the valves went he adjusted rode prolly 2 hours and he now needs new valves
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I personally speak of 2 strokes. I hope the honda 4 strokes are POS's. Just that much better in my opinion. The faster they break, the less someone will buy another one. I am merely speaking of the 2 stroke Hondas being good handling and built well. Power can be argued round and round. My CR250 03 ran every bit as good as any other bike out there, but I did do some things that no one else does. It wasn't the case induction, I've figured out the problem. Honda just made them slow for some reason. It's interesting that the years they got slower, the 4 strokes started exploding. Just sayin. RC's bike was fast and was case induction. Its a fact, that Honda's hold more resale than Suzuki etc. Why is that? 2002 CR250 will run around $1800 still in these parts. I can pick up a KX or RM for around $1400. Honda has name recognition, of building quality. Maybe they'll spend all they won over the years (karma's a beach). I know KTM is coming on strong.
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I know of 2 CRF450X's that have split their right hand crankcases.
Reason. Flat battery.
When you try and kick start them the kick start boss and idler gear have been weakend to reduce weight.
Result. Broken idler and crank case. :-[
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The Honda faithful are the only I group I know who religiously tout their machinery as being the holy grail of quality and reliability when evidence to the the contrary is staring them right in the face.
Could you post some links to this evidence since its staring us in the face? I cant seem to find anything. And for the record Im not a Honda guy, Im speaking from my own personal experience with everything from Honda lawnmowers to cars. Everything they build is quality
Are you serious?You haven't been living in a cave for the last 10 yrs have you? ;) Lol,ok,but it's the weekend so kitchen painting is on the agenda so I'll have to get back at it later.
A couple notes before I get at it,
1. I've worked on cars for a living for the past 25 yrs so I have a fair idea of what breaks on what brands and how often.
2. As I've already said a couple of times,Honda generally makes good stuff but to say they haven't built dogs,ticking time bombs or machinery that is poorly designed/executed is retarded.
3. What bothers me most about the 4t revolution isn't the engine itself but what trickled in to the 2t line because of it.
For years,2t's were at or about their weight limit so they stayed about the same.With the advent of the 4t MX,because the engines are so much heavier,everything else has been lightened up in order to compensate.Many of these parts also went on to the 2t's and imo,to the point of fragility.
4. I'll be back with your links later :)
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Are you serious?You haven't been living in a cave for the last 10 yrs have you? ;) Lol,ok,but it's the weekend so kitchen painting is on the agenda so I'll have to get back at it later.
A couple notes before I get at it,
1. I've worked on cars for a living for the past 25 yrs so I have a fair idea of what breaks on what brands and how often.
2. As I've already said a couple of times,Honda generally makes good stuff but to say they haven't built dogs,ticking time bombs or machinery that is poorly designed/executed is retarded.
3. What bothers me most about the 4t revolution isn't the engine itself but what trickled in to the 2t line because of it.
For years,2t's were at or about their weight limit so they stayed about the same.With the advent of the 4t MX,because the engines are so much heavier,everything else has been lightened up in order to compensate.Many of these parts also went on to the 2t's and imo,to the point of fragility.
4. I'll be back with your links later :)
Yes ford, please post the actual comparisons from all manufacturers of reliablity. I'm sure there are magazine articles etc. Not just joe smoes opinions. Actual comparisons professionally done.
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Do you actually think a magazine will print anything detrimental to Honda's image and interrupt vast sums of advertising revenue? lol,it's the guys in the trenches,like Ford who works on this stuff everyday for a living,that will give you the most accurate appraisal of the value of a piece of machinery.Are you suggesting there is something "unprofessional" about the legions of people who maintain this stuff everyday for a living?Honda builds some good stuff but it's not that great.
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Are you serious?
As a heart attack
1. I've worked on cars for a living for the past 25 yrs so I have a fair idea of what breaks on what brands and how often.
Thats great, I work on cars to. If your any kind of mechanic then you should know Honda's are one of the best built most dependable cars on the road. I dont believe I need to go into this any further...
2. As I've already said a couple of times,Honda generally makes good stuff but to say they haven't built dogs,ticking time bombs or machinery that is poorly designed/executed is retarded.
Please post links to these ticking time bombs or machinery thats poorly designed/executed.
3. What bothers me most about the 4t revolution isn't the engine itself but what trickled in to the 2t line because of it.
For years,2t's were at or about their weight limit so they stayed about the same.With the advent of the 4t MX,because the engines are so much heavier,everything else has been lightened up in order to compensate.Many of these parts also went on to the 2t's and imo,to the point of fragility.
What?
4. I'll be back with your links later :)
Please do :)
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I can give you 3 snook
crf450
crf250
crf150
I know they're 4 strokes but they're still honda.
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I can give you 3 snook
crf450
crf250
crf150
I know they're 4 strokes but they're still honda.
my dads and my 450 have been awesome, my 250f went through 2 cranks over 2 years (reason for getting 2stroke), and the 150s only had a bad cam and honda took care of that... so overall thats not to bad.
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I can give you 3 snook
crf450
crf250
crf150
I know they're 4 strokes but they're still honda.
They sure looked good in the Atlanta supercross saturday night. I didnt see one blow up the entire show?
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I can give you 3 snook
crf450
crf250
crf150
I know they're 4 strokes but they're still honda.
They sure looked good in the Atlanta supercross saturday night. I didnt see one blow up the entire show?
they also get a new motor every 2 rides
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Snook, are you defending 4 strokes on a two stroke website? Honda = Garbage. Do you actually own a honda?
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Snook, are you defending 4 strokes on a two stroke website? Honda = Garbage. Do you actually own a honda?
:) No, Im defending Honda's reputation for building good stuff. Yes I do own several Honda's, not because Im a Honda nut but because they build quality shit. Ive got a 12 year old lawnmower that runs like new (never touched it besides oil), a Honda Civic with close to a quarter million miles that gets bounced off the rev limiter daily (stock motor, clutch, etc), Ive got a crf50 (indestructable). Ive had a cbr6, a CR125-250, a CRF250-450, a Honda pressure washer...you name it. I honestly dont like they're dirtbikes the most I would rather a Suzuki anyday but I still know the Honda is a good bike.
This whole debate started because I said I thought the Honda was the best built bike lol
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Snook, are you defending 4 strokes on a two stroke website? Honda = Garbage. Do you actually own a honda?
No, Snook was just brought up that whether Honda really has good reliable parts or not, they will always milk it as though they do (not sure if thats what he was trying to say or not, but thats what it seems Honda does). He said yeah they looked great out there because Honda would never let their bikes break down in front of the public.
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You're never going to convince a guy who buys everything from his favourite brand, and who is clearly nuts of his brand...
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Link #1 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDUQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpsc.gov%2Fcpscpub%2Fprerel%2Fprhtml09%2F09708.html&rct=j&q=honda%20off%20road%20motorcycle%20recalls&ei=CpJrTYVFgZ2WB4_Anf8B&usg=AFQjCNGFuhnXlE_9uyjuSZ3FRoA25q9e0w&sig2=7goqSKqPeoZq_YyZYLDPHg&cad=rja (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDUQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpsc.gov%2Fcpscpub%2Fprerel%2Fprhtml09%2F09708.html&rct=j&q=honda%20off%20road%20motorcycle%20recalls&ei=CpJrTYVFgZ2WB4_Anf8B&usg=AFQjCNGFuhnXlE_9uyjuSZ3FRoA25q9e0w&sig2=7goqSKqPeoZq_YyZYLDPHg&cad=rja)
Link #2 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CD0QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpsc.gov%2Fcpscpub%2Fprerel%2Fprhtml01%2F01038.html&rct=j&q=honda%20off%20road%20motorcycle%20recalls&ei=CpJrTYVFgZ2WB4_Anf8B&usg=AFQjCNF-3MqWyGX7oRrHsAF-bdw8BlPHOg&sig2=U1RcSrhGQddK09yJU-lAaA&cad=rja (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CD0QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpsc.gov%2Fcpscpub%2Fprerel%2Fprhtml01%2F01038.html&rct=j&q=honda%20off%20road%20motorcycle%20recalls&ei=CpJrTYVFgZ2WB4_Anf8B&usg=AFQjCNF-3MqWyGX7oRrHsAF-bdw8BlPHOg&sig2=U1RcSrhGQddK09yJU-lAaA&cad=rja)
Link #3 http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08570.html (http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08570.html)
Link #4 http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07525.html (http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07525.html)
Link #5 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hondapowerequipment.com%2Fpdf%2FRecalls%2Ffuel.pdf&rct=j&q=honda%20power%20equipment%20%22recall%22&ei=E5VrTdqPL4GKlwei3PiBAg&usg=AFQjCNHEvaZqb3mrl7jXpVobrywWknn9dQ&sig2=t5qS-3F7pE5__YLWzYPpBg&cad=rja (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hondapowerequipment.com%2Fpdf%2FRecalls%2Ffuel.pdf&rct=j&q=honda%20power%20equipment%20%22recall%22&ei=E5VrTdqPL4GKlwei3PiBAg&usg=AFQjCNHEvaZqb3mrl7jXpVobrywWknn9dQ&sig2=t5qS-3F7pE5__YLWzYPpBg&cad=rja)
Link # 6 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hondapowerequipment.com%2Fpdf%2FRecalls%2FSNOWBLOWER_RECALL_POSTER.pdf&rct=j&q=honda%20power%20equipment%20%22recall%22&ei=E5VrTdqPL4GKlwei3PiBAg&usg=AFQjCNGJ29JZotOCb86xecyD0eb1xJSc-A&sig2=aIlm28fsjGTR0vEUKBEjBA&cad=rja (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hondapowerequipment.com%2Fpdf%2FRecalls%2FSNOWBLOWER_RECALL_POSTER.pdf&rct=j&q=honda%20power%20equipment%20%22recall%22&ei=E5VrTdqPL4GKlwei3PiBAg&usg=AFQjCNGJ29JZotOCb86xecyD0eb1xJSc-A&sig2=aIlm28fsjGTR0vEUKBEjBA&cad=rja)
Link #7 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmarine.honda.com%2Fpdf%2Frecalls%2FPOSTER-RECALL_BF15D_BF20D_FUELCHAMBERRECALL.pdf&rct=j&q=honda%20outboard%20%22recall%22&ei=6pVrTebpCYGBlAeTrIn_AQ&usg=AFQjCNF9at9LedWIxiYhBmzC29GEzFBSlA&sig2=rqp96HMyH1Kowa5bi-RgjA&cad=rja (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmarine.honda.com%2Fpdf%2Frecalls%2FPOSTER-RECALL_BF15D_BF20D_FUELCHAMBERRECALL.pdf&rct=j&q=honda%20outboard%20%22recall%22&ei=6pVrTebpCYGBlAeTrIn_AQ&usg=AFQjCNF9at9LedWIxiYhBmzC29GEzFBSlA&sig2=rqp96HMyH1Kowa5bi-RgjA&cad=rja)
Link # 8 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CFUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloodydecks.com%2Fforums%2Fboating-discussion%2F76839-2005-bf135a-honda-outboard-recall.html&rct=j&q=honda%20outboard%20%20%22recall%22&ei=qJdrTc-MCYHGlQffsJ2CAg&usg=AFQjCNGtifhEb_AQ_QSpnUMNB3nUD4f2Dw&sig2=dzRNh7iy23UUDEN7fx6eBQ&cad=rja (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CFUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloodydecks.com%2Fforums%2Fboating-discussion%2F76839-2005-bf135a-honda-outboard-recall.html&rct=j&q=honda%20outboard%20%20%22recall%22&ei=qJdrTc-MCYHGlQffsJ2CAg&usg=AFQjCNGtifhEb_AQ_QSpnUMNB3nUD4f2Dw&sig2=dzRNh7iy23UUDEN7fx6eBQ&cad=rja)
In the interest of fairness I just linked the top two that came up in each category-it took all of a minute-and I'm a computer spaz :)
Things like the non sealed airboxes,engine issues etc on the MX bike are well known-at least I thought they were to most people ???
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Ford, that is exactly what I thought you would do. Of course, even Toyota, which has been the top of the reliability chain for years has had a ton of recalls. Where's the magazine comparisons like I asked for? If you think a leaky gas tank, and air boot make them, "unreliable" then you are not a mechanic. Sure there are things like that, I can show from every manufacturer. Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawi, Honda, and did you remember KTM has had a ton of recalls or issues? But we are talking in comparison, it is a FACT that Honda has been more reliable over the years. The dirtbike scene, the CRF's have hurt their score. But besides having to seal my boot intake connection on my CR's, they are bullet proof. Gears, topends, cranks, bolts, etc. Honda is built with quality. Sure every manufacturer has it's recalls or issues. But overall scoring, Honda has had a high rate of reliability for years. One thing to remember when comparing on the "mechanics" level. A Honda may have twice the number of bikes coming to you to get fixed. Umm it's because they sell three times the number of bikes compared to the other manufacturers.
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Are you serious?
3. What bothers me most about the 4t revolution isn't the engine itself but what trickled in to the 2t line because of it.
For years,2t's were at or about their weight limit so they stayed about the same.With the advent of the 4t MX,because the engines are so much heavier,everything else has been lightened up in order to compensate.Many of these parts also went on to the 2t's and imo,to the point of fragility.
What?
Sorry,I though this was common knowledge as well.
As manufacturers tried to reduce weight on their fourstrokes,many of the lightened parts found their way on to the two strokes as it's cheaper to make one part instead of two-while they were all still building both anyway.Frames,suspension,hubs,plastic etc were all thinned out and lightened up.Bikes don't take a beating like they used to.
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Ford, that is exactly what I thought you would do. Of course, even Toyota, which has been the top of the reliability chain for years has had a ton of recalls. Where's the magazine comparisons like I asked for? If you think a leaky gas tank, and air boot make them, "unreliable" then you are not a mechanic. Sure there are things like that, I can show from every manufacturer. Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawi, Honda, and did you remember KTM has had a ton of recalls or issues? But we are talking in comparison, it is a FACT that Honda has been more reliable over the years. The dirtbike scene, the CRF's have hurt their score. But besides having to seal my boot intake connection on my CR's, they are bullet proof. Gears, topends, cranks, bolts, etc. Honda is built with quality. Sure every manufacturer has it's recalls or issues. But overall scoring, Honda has had a high rate of reliability for years. One thing to remember when comparing on the "mechanics" level. A Honda may have twice the number of bikes coming to you to get fixed. Umm it's because they sell three times the number of bikes compared to the other manufacturers.
JC miedos,give me a break,I'm typing as fast as I can :D -the mag things are coming.In the meantime,why don't you go back and reread this thread to see what I actually said.I never said they don't make a good machine,nor did I say other machines don't have issues as well-only that Honda's aren't the "ride them hard,put them away wet and never have any problems" that many make them out to be.
I agree though,I'm not much of a mechanic.A real one wouldn't see gas leaking on a hot engine,a swingarm breaking in half,or a filtration system that allowed dirt to pass directly into the engine to be much of an issue or a reflection on quality control.My bad.
It's probably also true that after 25 yrs in the trade it's never occurred to me that I must have seen 100 Honda's with 3 problems and 2 Toyota's with 1 problem,therefore Honda's have more problems.I swear I get dumber every day. ???
FWIW,if I was going car shopping tomorrow,my top 3 in would be-Toyota,Hyundai,Honda-in that order.
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1. I've worked on cars for a living for the past 25 yrs so I have a fair idea of what breaks on what brands and how often.
Thats great, I work on cars to. If your any kind of mechanic then you should know Honda's are one of the best built most dependable cars on the road. I dont believe I need to go into this any further...
Yes,I think you do.It's funny how I dare commit the ultimate sacrilegious heresy by my Honda comments and immediately,by two of you,my mechanical abilities are called in to question.
Granted,I'm getting dumber every day and I suspect there are millions of mechanics out there better and smarter than me.
That said,one of the companies I used to work for was big on the American ASE certification for tourist recognition So I got that years ago but never renewed it when I quit.
Otherwise,I've been doing it day in and day out for 25 yrs,have my Canadian papers with the Interprovincial standard(Canadian license and as high as you can go here) and have an ever growing growing stack of update training course certificates.
We do everything where I work but I specialize in electrical/driveabilty troubleshooting.
I'd be interested in your age and qualifications.I like to know who I'm talking to.
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Yes ford, please post the actual comparisons from all manufacturers of reliablity. I'm sure there are magazine articles etc. Not just joe smoes opinions. Actual comparisons professionally done.
As you well know I can't do that simply because,to my knowledge,it's never been done.
What I did instead,to be fair,as I was waiting between paint coats,was to go to the mag stack and pick the first few MXA's with Honda tests to pick a few tidbits out.In the case of the 99 I had to dig down though as I wanted a 2t test.Admittedly,the stack isn't what it used be as a few years ago in a fit o f"the walls are closing in and some of this sh!t has got to go" I gave away all of them except those with tests of bikes I'd had-nostalgic reason I suppose,so most of mine are recent.Anyway........
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A friend of mine served the first year and a half of his automotive technician apprenticeship in a Honda dealership replacing a defective part in Honda Accord automatic transmissions.Day in and day out he did this and he almost suffered a nervous breakdown.Every Honda Accord imported into Canada during this era was defective and rather then issue a recall Honda set about quietly contacting the owners and repairing their automobiles before they blew up.I never read about this in the media.
The first 1800 V4 500 Honda streetbikes imported into North America in the early 80's had misaligned crankshaft journals and would fracture the crankshafts when started.
A friend of mine has a nieghbour whose son is sponsored by Honda on a CRF250 and in his first spring of racing had four bikes blow their countershafts in the span of a month or two.
Honda cars? I once changed a motor in my sister in law's Honda (blew a frost plug).My hands were cut to ribbons because Honda was too cheap to deburr all the sharp edges in the engine compartment.I'd rather drive a Hyundai then a Honda.
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Ford, I'm one of those who believes my 2002-07 chassis 2 strokes were the best handling bikes I've ever owned. If you know anything about me, you know I've owned well over a couple hundred bikes, since that is what I do. My bikes do ruts better than any bike I've ridden. I could never go in, gas it, and hope to keep the front end inside without feeling like I was gonna fall. These bikes handle perfectly.
Granted,this is an 02 test and refers to previous,but it is a Honda after all.
MXA 2002 CR250
Question Three.How does the 2002 CR250 run?
It has a flat powerband.It comes on with a muffled sensation,surges in the middle,then trails off.
Question Six. Does the CR tranny shift?
No,it's stiff,cranky and reluctant.We were shocked at how notchy the CR250 tranny felt.
Question Eight.What about the suspension?
Oh happy days,Never has the word excellent been used in conjunction with Honda CR250 suspension.Honda owns the intellectual rights to the phrase "mid stroke harshness" Whether we are talking about the old steel frame CR's or the new aluminum twin spar units,Honda has had bad suspension.It has been traditional,like turkey at thanksgiving or bad tatoos on freestylers,for Hondas to have teeth shattering front forks.No more.The 2002 CR250 suspension is the best Honda suspension we have ever tested.Ever!It actually works.It goes up and down without jarring your eye teeth,pounding your forearms or making you pull in on lap four complaining of double vision.Hallelujah!
Rating
In our opinion,the new chassis is a step up in fit and feel,but not much of an improvement in cornering prowess.We still rate the 93 geometry as the best ever,with the current model somewhere between the 94 and 01 specs.
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A friend of mine served the first year and a half of his automotive technician apprenticeship in a Honda dealership replacing a defective part in Honda Accord automatic transmissions.Day in and day out he did this and he almost suffered a nervous breakdown.Every Honda Accord imported into Canada during this era was defective and rather then issue a recall Honda set about quietly contacting the owners and repairing their automobiles before they blew up.I never read about this in the media.
The first 1800 V4 500 Honda streetbikes imported into North America in the early 80's had misaligned crankshaft journals and would fracture the crankshafts when started.
A friend of mine has a nieghbour whose son is sponsored by Honda on a CRF250 and in his first spring of racing had four bikes blow their countershafts in the span of a month or two.
Honda cars? I once changed a motor in my sister in law's Honda (blew a frost plug).My hands were cut to ribbons because Honda was too cheap to deburr all the sharp edges in the engine compartment.I'd rather drive a Hyundai then a Honda.
You lie.Honda's couldn't possible be that way.Bite your tongue. :D I had a 750 Interceptor with cam issues as well but those were due to undersized oil passages/too little flow to the top end.Honda would warranty the cams if they fell within the warranty period one time but this never fixed the problem.The next time you were on your own.Your buddies story reminds me of why I won't work in a dealership-too much repetitive,mind numbing warranty work. ???
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99 CR125-Fifth place and sinking fast.
Power.
Poor.How the mighty have fallen.The CR125 line never had any low end,but it used to have a ripping good top end.No more.Bad jetting,confused rev and an assortment of snaps,crackles and pops are all this mid range only engine delivers.
Shifting
Fair.The combination of a 5 speed and a short powerband have seriously damaged the previously excellent CR shifting.Lots of missed shifts.
Shock
Poor.This is a bike that hates choppy bumps.It goes kack,kack,kack over acceleration bumps.The stock spring rate is good, but the the shock is not responsive on high speed compression.
Handling
Fair.It's easy to blame the aluminum frame for the CR125's handling ills,but that's not fair.Even the steel framed CR's felt like they were designed by a committee.This is a busy bike with lots of pitch correction-which exhibits itself with unexpected push out of the front end.
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2011 CRF 250-Fifth place
Handling: The MXA wrecking crew will describe the handling of the 2011 CRF250 with our rose colored glasses on.If you aren't afraid of massive headshake down straights and can live with a front end that tucks under in tight turns,then you will love the CRF250.That is,if you can stop the bike from submarining into the ground.
The word: The 2011 Honda CRF250 finished last in MXA's 250 shootout for three reasons.The engine is far too mellow,the frame geometry is scary,and the suspension is poorly set up.
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It will be good to see Honda with a new 2 stroke in 2012.. because everybody else will follow! BTW.. I cannot wait to see if KTM will finally going into production with a full FI 2 stroke next year? Can we say sold out?
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2010 CRF450
Q:How fast is the 2010 CRF450?
A: It's not very fast.In fact,it is the slowest bike we have tested in 2010.There is no shame in that though because Honda's goal was to make the CRF450 easier to ride-and it is.The herky-jerky throttle response off idle has been seriously reduced,and the engine revs slower,which makes the powerband feel broader.For followers of the "450's are too powerful" crowd,Honda has built the perfect engine.
Q:What did we hate?
A: Clutch.Yikes!This is barely a clutch.With only four clutch springs,the CRF450 clutch has the lifespan of a gypsy moth.
I've got more but that's it for me.My arthritic fingers are knotting up and I've got work to do.You get the idea-hopefully.
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Ford, every car/motorcycle/engine manufacturer in the world has had problems and recalls. It doesnt matter if its a Lambo or a Kia....everybody has problems. Look at all the Toyota recalls last year, they made a mistake and it was corrected. It doesnt mean Toyota's quality has went down. I want to see links were someone has done comparisions on reliability and found Hondas unreliable. Google "Whats the most reliable used car" and I guarentee Honda will be at the top of those lists.
A friend of mine has a nieghbour whose son is sponsored by Honda on a CRF250 and in his first spring of racing had four bikes blow their countershafts in the span of a month or two.
I didnt know countershafts can blow? Are you talking about the sprocket or the actual shaft :D
Honda cars? I once changed a motor in my sister in law's Honda (blew a frost plug).My hands were cut to ribbons because Honda was too cheap to deburr all the sharp edges in the engine compartment.I'd rather drive a Hyundai then a Honda.
Sounds like your sister in law should have put a little antifreeze in her coolant like it says in the manual.
I'd be interested in your age and qualifications.I like to know who I'm talking to.
:) I dont know why every time I disagree with someone on here it turns into a 6 page debate. Im 31, no Im not an ASE certified mechanic. Does that mean your right and Im wrong? No.
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Ford, every car/motorcycle/engine manufacturer in the world has had problems and recalls. It doesnt matter if its a Lambo or a Kia....everybody has problems. Look at all the Toyota recalls last year, they made a mistake and it was corrected. It doesnt mean Toyota's quality has went down. I want to see links were someone has done comparisions on reliability and found Hondas unreliable. Google "Whats the most reliable used car" and I guarentee Honda will be at the top of those lists.
I agree,and I never once said they weren't or that others don't have issues.All I said was that they have issues like everyone else.As soon as you mention something like that to a Honda guy,it's like waving a red flag in front of a bull.Honestly,I've never found fans of other brands to be that way-it always struck me as bizarre.As per my previous post,Honda is #3 of my top 3-that's not bad.
BTW,brag up your Honda 4t mower all you want-I've got a 16 yr old 2t lawn boy that gets used hard and often,starts first pull and has so far cost me exactly 2 spark plugs that I just changed because I figured I should.Two strokes rule!!! :D ;)
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Honda fans are a bit like like Maico fans. :-X
Seriously the hole debate started when someone sugested that Hondas reliability reputation was not warranted.
I agree.
Fact 1: Honda make some good bikes & cars.
Fact 2: Honda have made some pigs.
Fact 3: Honda have been one of the worst manufactors that will never admit fault or admit they got it wrong.
I dont believe Honda are any better or worse then any other manufactor.
If humans are involved anywhere in the production, things will go wrong.
Honda's reputation was built when you were comparing Honda's with Triumph/Norton. :o
Was not a fair comparison was it.
They have been living on it ever since.
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:) I dont know why every time I disagree with someone on here it turns into a 6 page debate. Im 31, no Im not an ASE certified mechanic. Does that mean your right and Im wrong? No.
It probably turns in to a 6 pg debate because you post too many things that are wrong :D ;)
And no,certification means diddly in many cases,it simply proves that I've seen far more than many casual types,so therefore have a strong basis for my opinions.The reason I'm not brand loyal for anything is because I've seen far too many issues on everything-including Honda-despite what some would have you believe.
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Honda fans are a bit like like Maico fans. :-X
Seriously the hole debate started when someone sugested that Hondas reliability reputation was not warranted.
I agree.
Fact 1: Honda make some good bikes & cars.
Fact 2: Honda have made some pigs.
Fact 3: Honda have been one of the worst manufactors that will never admit fault or admit they got it wrong.
I dont believe Honda are any better or worse then any other manufactor.
If humans are involved anywhere in the production, things will go wrong.
Honda's reputation was built when you were comparing Honda's with Triumph/Norton. :o
Was not a fair comparison was it.
They have been living on it ever since.
I agree with all of the above.It's funny you mention the Triumph/Norton thing .As I was aimlessly painting along I was thinking their reputation as being so much better likely came from their early days when they killed the Brits as I couldn't think of another point in time that would warrant it.
I guess great minds think alike-or fools seldom differ. :D
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Fools probably. ;D
My fathers generation grew up riding british bike and when Honda came on the scene it was a big deal.
Even today they are big Honda fans just because of it.
Everytime you have a few beers with them they go on & on about it. Yes guys, But that was 40 years ago. :(
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It probably turns in to a 6 pg debate because you post too many things that are wrong :D ;)
And no,certification means diddly in many cases,it simply proves that I've seen far more than many casual types,so therefore have a strong basis for my opinions.The reason I'm not brand loyal for anything is because I've seen far too many issues on everything-including Honda-despite what some would have you believe.
If Im wrong then prove me wrong :) I believe the debate we have going here is like beating a dead horse.
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If Im wrong then prove me wrong :) I believe the debate we have going here is like beating a dead horse.
I already did.You're just too blind to see it.Hahahahahahaa
Beating a dead horse or not,it's been a welcome diversion from house chores so I'm ready for the next 6-7 page debate :)
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Seriously the hole debate started when someone sugested that Hondas reliability reputation was not warranted.
I agree.
Fact 1: Honda make some good bikes & cars.
Fact 2: Honda have made some pigs.
Fact 3: Honda have been one of the worst manufactors that will never admit fault or admit they got it wrong.
I dont believe Honda are any better or worse then any other manufactor.
If humans are involved anywhere in the production, things will go wrong.
I agree.
Honda's reputation was built when you were comparing Honda's with Triumph/Norton. :o
Was not a fair comparison was it.
They have been living on it ever since.
I wouldnt know about how Honda's reputation was back then I can only speak for the past 15 years or so. Im honestly not a die hard Honda fan ;)
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I already did.You're just too blind to see it.Hahahahahahaa
Beating a dead horse or not,it's been a welcome diversion from house chores so I'm ready for the next 6-7 page debate :)
Are you serious? Were? I think you need to take a break from painting for a little while Ford those fumes are starting to get to you. :P
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
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I agree.Painting is mindless drudgery and borderline a fate worse than death-especially if you could see the puke orange/brown color the old girl picked out :-X
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:D Atleast your getting your honey-do chores done Im still just listening to her gripe ;D ;)
I know how being a mechanic is, you guys see anything and everything that has broken and are not a quick to say a particular brand is better.
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Yea hondas cars are great :o if you change timing belt and water pump every 90k and cv joints and ring it every 150k they are the best ;D ford f150 220k changed plugs and put one set of brakes on it and KTMs are the best !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yuck. You drive a ford ???
Very embarrasing ;)
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As stated the countershaft was failing in the region of the output bearing and the counter shaft sprocket/spline was falling off of the motor.
No point pouring coolant into a motor when it runs out of a hole in the block where a frostplug once resided.
From a consumer's vantage point Honda products are good value for the money and serve their customers well,from the vantage point of people who service Honda products they are middle of the road,nothing special,and we honestly wonder what all the hype is about.
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Yuck. You drive a ford ???
Very embarrasing ;)
Agreed :D
When it comes to cars Im a Chevrolet man. Ive got a Camaro Ive been building over the past year thats going to be upseting a few local Mustang owners very soon :P
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No point pouring coolant into a motor when it runs out of a hole in the block where a frostplug once resided.
Were did it go? Freeze plugs usually dont move unless ice expands in the block from improperly mixed water or you somehow over-pressurized the cooling system. Both can be avoided with proper maintinence.
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I have many sister in laws and,agreed, the maintenance is lousy or non-existent among their vehicles.Case in point,one sister in law came to me and said her Toyota was making a "funny" noise.I popped the hood and quickly found the problem - the waterpump had failed and the impeller had bored it's way halfway out of the housing and some how the belt had stayed on.There was not a drop of coolant in the car,it was a hot day and the car was still running on all four cylinders!I think up untill their recent problems Toyotas have had a well deserved reputation for quality and reliability.
It's interesting to note that the reputation of Honda differs greatly in other parts of the globe.In many parts of Europe, England in particular, they are viewed as a "pensioner's car".
As a collector of vintage motorcycles I have noticed that Honda 2Ts from the 70's are in many cases non-existent.Spanish motorcycles have a reputation for poor metallurgy and related reliability issues yet I find many,many Bultacos,Ossas etc. and they all still run.Where are all the MR/MT 125/175/250s? I haven't seen a MR250 in decades.
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Yuck. You drive a ford ???
Very embarrasing ;)
Agreed :D
When it comes to cars Im a Chevrolet man. Ive got a Camaro Ive been building over the past year thats going to be upseting a few local Mustang owners very soon :P
I drive a 96 F150 and the wife a Toyota Echo.I wouldn't touch a Ford truck after 96,or a later model Chev truck either.It seems many city types wanted to drive a truck but wanted it to ride like a car.These days,if you want a truck,you have to move up to a 3/4 ton.
As far as the Camaro goes,maybe you should look at an old station wagon instead.
Years ago,I was working in another province and driving an 81 trans am.One day,I stopped at a set of lights and a guy with an old rusty dodge station wagon pulls up along side and starts revving it and pointing ahead.I thought,oh come on buddy,geez but then,what the hell,all right.When the light changed,he left me for dead.
I saw him a little ways down the road pulled in getting gas so I stopped to talk.It turns out,he had just built the engine for his Demon but as the car wasn't done he decided to throw in the wagon just to make sure everything was working good before putting it in the Demon.In his words "You know,I've been having so much fun jumping on Mustangs and Camaros in this old wreck I might have to leave it in and build another one for the Demon" That always struck me as too funny :D
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That's funny stuff ford, my dad had an Aspen wagon, it was in a wreck and the 225 slant 6 block cracked, so he pulled a 360 out of the junk yard and stuck in there. Talk about hauling groceries!!!!
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Years ago I had a Nova SS with a hypo fuelly 327 and at a traffic light a Volkswagen Beetle challenged me to a drag.I looked over and there were four people in the car and I could tell by the snarling sound that there was something special about the boxer motor rattling away in the back.Now bear in mind that my Nova was quicker then Japanese 600s of the time so it was a fairly fast car.Well the light turns green and I launched the Nova,engine torque twisting the entire car and the glove box popping open (as it always did).Imagine my surprise when that Bug stayed right with me,lifting the front end with every shift!It took everything the Nova had to pull ahead of that Kafer!
I've got a newer F150 and it is a perplexing vehicle ,it is fairly economical and nice to drive,and it also has a shoddy build quality that makes Hyundai Excells look good and is a nightmare to work on. :-X
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Both Ford and GM Trucks are built light and shoddy these days.Likely if you were the pull the fill plug on your rear dif you'll find metal shavings.They're just not built like they used to be.You never used to change rear ends other than abuse or low oil level-now you do it all the time.Many of the mechanical parts are the same way.If I was buying a new domestic full size,it would likely be a Dodge.They have their issues too,just not as many.
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Toyota Tundra! The new Tacomas will be 8 cylinders!
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Definitely-if you've got the cash.I remember when my father bought his last 2wd ranger.He wanted the Toyota but couldn't justify another $5000 .
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I drive a 96 F150 and the wife a Toyota Echo.I wouldn't touch a Ford truck after 96,or a later model Chev truck either.It seems many city types wanted to drive a truck but wanted it to ride like a car.These days,if you want a truck,you have to move up to a 3/4 ton.
As far as the Camaro goes,maybe you should look at an old station wagon instead.
Years ago,I was working in another province and driving an 81 trans am.One day,I stopped at a set of lights and a guy with an old rusty dodge station wagon pulls up along side and starts revving it and pointing ahead.I thought,oh come on buddy,geez but then,what the hell,all right.When the light changed,he left me for dead.
I saw him a little ways down the road pulled in getting gas so I stopped to talk.It turns out,he had just built the engine for his Demon but as the car wasn't done he decided to throw in the wagon just to make sure everything was working good before putting it in the Demon.In his words "You know,I've been having so much fun jumping on Mustangs and Camaros in this old wreck I might have to leave it in and build another one for the Demon" That always struck me as too funny :D
;D I would love to have a little grocery getter sleeper to cruise around like that. My Camaro is far from stock though, Ive got 2 grand in just head porting :o
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Years ago I had a Nova SS with a hypo fuelly 327 and at a traffic light a Volkswagen Beetle challenged me to a drag.I looked over and there were four people in the car and I could tell by the snarling sound that there was something special about the boxer motor rattling away in the back.Now bear in mind that my Nova was quicker then Japanese 600s of the time so it was a fairly fast car.Well the light turns green and I launched the Nova,engine torque twisting the entire car and the glove box popping open (as it always did).Imagine my surprise when that Bug stayed right with me,lifting the front end with every shift!It took everything the Nova had to pull ahead of that Kafer!
:) There is a guy around here with a turbo Beetle that runs low 6s at out local 8th mile track. First time I seen it run my jaw hit the ground :o
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I was once left at the lights by a Morris Minor. :-[
Turns out he had a 13B Rotary in it.
I couldn't hear it, My stereo was too loud. ;D
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Yuck. You drive a ford ???
Very embarrasing ;)
and you drive what???? a goverment vehical i bet :P :P ;)
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Yuck. You drive a ford ???
Very embarrasing ;)
and you drive what???? a goverment vehical i bet :P :P ;)
or does your country even make cars :-*
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No we dont make cars.
We do get these silly things from Aussie tho. ;)
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Yuck. You drive a ford ???
Very embarrasing ;)
and you drive what???? a goverment vehical i bet :P :P ;)
Ford-Fix Or Repair Daily,Found On Reserve Dump,Frustrated Owner Regrets Decision, Fuc'in Old Recycled Dodge,Found On Road Dead.Ford backwards- Driver Returns On Foot.and the list goes on and on-I wonder why :D
I see some of the Euro and down under market Toyota's that aren't available here I'd like to have.
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Auto manufacturers have,on occasion, had assembly plants in New Zealand.I think Peugot,if my memory is correct,had a plant there at one time.Mind you,there are more people in greater Seattle or Toronto then in all of New Zealand so the economics just aren't there. :D
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Ford-Fix Or Repair Daily,Found On Reserve Dump,Frustrated Owner Regrets Decision, Fuc'in Old Recycled Dodge,Found On Road Dead.Ford backwards- Driver Returns On Foot.and the list goes on and on-I wonder why :D
I see some of the Euro and down under market Toyota's that aren't available here I'd like to have.
You forgot fu**ed on race day! :P hahahahah
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Haha true story, when Ford was first starting out, he sent some of his workers to a junkyard to inspect cars and find out what parts broke down. He did this so he could determine which parts to make break down sooner.
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Auto manufacturers have,on occasion, had assembly plants in New Zealand.I think Peugot,if my memory is correct,had a plant there at one time.Mind you,there are more people in greater Seattle or Toronto then in all of New Zealand so the economics just aren't there. :D
Correct. ;)
Also Datsun/Jaguar/Leyland :o/Skoda/Hillman/Toyota/Ford/Mitsubishi/Chrysler/Peugot have all been made in NZ at various times.
All were shut down in the 90's because of the economics of scale.
Back then we only had 3 million people in the country.
We have made some cool stuff tho. The 'Britten" ;D
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Yuck. You drive a ford ???
Very embarrasing ;)
and you drive what???? a goverment vehical i bet :P :P ;)
Ford-Fix Or Repair Daily,Found On Reserve Dump,Frustrated Owner Regrets Decision, Fuc'in Old Recycled Dodge,Found On Road Dead.Ford backwards- Driver Returns On Foot.and the list goes on and on-I wonder why :D
I see some of the Euro and down under market Toyota's that aren't available here I'd like to have.
u bumped your head FIRST ON RACE DAY!!!!! no buy out just badd ass american muscle!!! what cars does your country make saab? ther good :o NOT!!!!! even a chevy is better then them
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I take it you are a ford fan rbigair40 ? :D
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Yuck. You drive a ford ???
Very embarrasing ;)
and you drive what???? a goverment vehical i bet :P :P ;)
Ford-Fix Or Repair Daily,Found On Reserve Dump,Frustrated Owner Regrets Decision, Fuc'in Old Recycled Dodge,Found On Road Dead.Ford backwards- Driver Returns On Foot.and the list goes on and on-I wonder why :D
I see some of the Euro and down under market Toyota's that aren't available here I'd like to have.
u bumped your head FIRST ON RACE DAY!!!!! no buy out just badd ass american muscle!!! what cars does your country make saab? ther good :o NOT!!!!! even a chevy is better then them
Until the bankruptcy thing,GM owned Saab-and junked them up after they bought them.FWIW, Saabs are Swedish,not Canadian.You remember Canada,that country above you past the 49th with an economy that hasn't went down the crapper.Besides,as far as what country builds what kind of car,the US doesn't build cars either,unless you include their Honda and Toyota plants :P
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My neighbour's Dodge pickup is made in Mexico,Ross up the street has a Honda Civic made in Ontario,Canada and my wife almost bought a used Mercedes Benz ML320 (made in the U.S.).Good luck trying to figure out where a vehicle is made these days! :-X
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Ah yes Cananda. the country that gives it's citizens full medical benifits, not criminalizes it's citizens for not having unaffordable insurance.
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Isn't the American president's sister married to a Canadian and living in Ontario?
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The United States is the #3 car producing country in the world...the first two being China and Japan.
We have a huge Ford truck plant here in Louisville. Its the probably biggest highest paying employer in the city.