Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: RM250 Evan on December 03, 2010, 08:22:34 PM
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http://www.cycletrader.com/find/listing/2010-Yamaha-Yz450f-96934223 (http://www.cycletrader.com/find/listing/2010-Yamaha-Yz450f-96934223)
A one year old new bike lost $2000! Four strokes killed the MX economy... My brother is going to be happy cause thats he's dream bike. ???
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Incredible. This means that a Yamaha actually depreciates faster than an Alfa Romeo.
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Or you could say it expires faster than milk.
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Lol,that would be a good description of me :(
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Or you could say it expires faster than milk.
How about spoils like old milk....
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I wonder how many dealers have a 2010 YZ250 leftover. 8)
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We may laugh at this, but it's a problem for us 2t fans wanting new, modern 2ts. Whilst the factories have all these unsold bikes, they sure as hell aren't going to bring out even slightly updated 2ts (re the Dutch(?) dealers bike with 4t plastic, or the South African ones).
And blokes will not buy a 250 2t YZ that's more expensive than the latest model 450 (having said that, most dealers wouldn't even have one in store). It doesn't help when you also see 250 4ts, with all their regular updates, being only $100 more than the msrp on 2011 YZ250 2ts, which has been essentially the same bike since the change to the alloy frame. Either Yamaha are making bugger all on the 250fs, or we 2t owners are being gouged. The YZ 250 must cost bugger all to produce, compared to the regularly updated / redeveloped 4ts........
I think I recall that Yamaha weren't going to re-up the YZs homologation for use in AMA Pro racing - is that true?
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hey dude, I have a price list of the Yamaha bikes and the yz250 is cheaper than the yz250f.
prices:
2010 yz450f $8,250
2010 yz250f $7,150-$7,250
2010 yz250 $7,150
2010 yz125 $6,250
2010 yz85 $3,850
It also seems to me prices are dropping? A couple years ago 450's where pushing $10k where they not?
And I agree with the fact that why would they even produce modern two strokes when they have all this 4stroke stock still to sell. This could have been avoided early on when people where predicting this fall out. I really wish we would push for EFI two strokes, it would change the motor industry as we know it. A 4 liter efi v8 2 stroke producing 500-600hp with no turbo or super charger, with the weight of 200-300lbs, and decent gas mileage? :o
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I disagree that low four-stroke resale values are bad for us. I think it's an excellent sign. Saying that they're not going to make two-strokes when they have a bunch of left-over four-strokes going unsold, makes the assumption that the top executives in the company care more about four-stroke technology than they do about maintaining their swimming pool full of $100 bills. The market is demonstrating that two-strokes will sell and generate revenue, while four-strokes will not. That means that to follow the money, they should start transitioning their production to make more two-strokes and fewer four-strokes. If I were them, I would consider the warehoused four-strokes to be practically a lost-cause in terms of generating revenue. The demand for the bikes is going down, and that means they simply won't be able to charge what they used to charge, and the bikes won't be able to make money. They built them, it was a mistake, now it's time to make what the people are lining up at the door to pay for.
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after a point jetz it will help two strokes out, but right now the big four have millions of dollars of stock they are trying to dump. This is a great time for European companies to get back in the picture and dominate. And if their bikes are cheaper they will take over.
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I disagree that low four-stroke resale values are bad for us. I think it's an excellent sign. Saying that they're not going to make two-strokes when they have a bunch of left-over four-strokes going unsold, makes the assumption that the top executives in the company care more about four-stroke technology than they do about maintaining their swimming pool full of $100 bills. The market is demonstrating that two-strokes will sell and generate revenue, while four-strokes will not. That means that to follow the money, they should start transitioning their production to make more two-strokes and fewer four-strokes. If I were them, I would consider the warehoused four-strokes to be practically a lost-cause in terms of generating revenue. The demand for the bikes is going down, and that means they simply won't be able to charge what they used to charge, and the bikes won't be able to make money. They built them, it was a mistake, now it's time to make what the people are lining up at the door to pay for.
I have actually been swimming in that pool that you mention. Good times they were. :P
Dont know if is kept as full these days !!
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They could just blame the economy and use that as an excuse to continue pushing four strokes :/
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and they can continue being broke. :-\
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Seriously, can any of you imagine how many YZ250's would sell at $5,000k. I'm guess a crap load. I actually hope that this whole 4 stroke revolution actually brought some deflation back into the mix. Bring back well priced bikes 2 or 4 strokes, and being comparable, let's see how many sell. Maybe our sport would start making a comeback to it's old days of everyone one working the summer to buy one. Also, bring down the noise and stop letting pipe makers make louder one's. Maybe we can have more tracks again.
YZ125 $4,500
YZ250 $4,900
YZ250F $5,300
YZ450F $5,900
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While this would be ideal, and I am all for it Meidoso, it wont happen. I am sure cost to build all those machines would be well over that. The "big 4" are already struggling as it is. It will be interesting to see what happens though in the very near future.
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This is just oversaturation + a depressed economy. The fact that yamaha could make a few bucks by dumping a lot of YZ250's into the market is purely circumstancial and based upon the fact that it is hard to find any new two strokes, 2009, 2010, or 2011.
What is important is that the 2 stroke is still selling. They aren't competitive in Pro AMA, 3 of the big 4 dumped their line, the one remaining japanese manufacturer hasn't offered any meaningful updates and has in fact been RAISING the MSRP on a dated design, yet they are still selling. I think that is a huge statement. And KTM just showed us that if you redesign your 2 stroke line, they will virtually sell out once they hit the market. Those are the important factors because as much as you would like to ignore it, any business worth their salt has to come to terms with the fact that there is still a market (i.e. profit to be made).
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Mid summer you could buy a Brand New 2010 YZ450F for 6,200. There was a dealer at lorettas selling them. I am getting ready to trade my 2010 in on a 2011 and am only going to get $4,100, I also have a 02 CR that is listed in the classifieds, the dealership is willing to give me 1k on that. I am hoping to get 2k for it and I have about 6 tied up in it. Say what you want but the MX market is hurting, bikes are just not worth much no matter the brand or strokes. I saw another guy on her let his RM with tons of work go for 1,700. And don't get me started on KTM they want 1-2k more per bike than any of the other brands.
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Here is the thing, people want value. About the same time CR and KX were giving up on their bikes and disconinuing them, YZ and KTM were getting updates and continue to still be made. I think people assign a value to this. Fact of the matter is, if you have $2000 to scrape up, you don't need to settle on a 9 year old Honda. I realize you really have a $6000 Honda, but now you are speaking to the guys who potentially have well over $2000 to spend on a bike. I'm willing to guess that the economy has temporarily taken them from the market. You need to find a fan of the CR for them to realize the value of your bike.
The RM is different. It had a nice long run from 2001-2008. Tons of parts are still available and many of them cross the full year range. So while it was discontinued 2 years ago, I think people still see it in a favorable light. But it is also commonly known that the 2003+ bikes were more desirable. So I think the only way you can really sell the 01 and 02's is if they come with such a slew of mods that it makes it worth it. I sold my 2001 RM250 for just $1500 and it had a ton invested ($850 just in the clutch).
P.S. Your '10 is only worth $4100 because you can get brand new '09's OTD for $4300 right now. Remember when Ford started offering employee discounts on new F150's? IT caused the previous couple year trucks to absolutely PLUMMET in value overnight. This is a similar effect.
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Perhaps i told some people here before but i live in Russia most of the year. living in Russia i was thinking about new models and updates. Here Russians are very sensitive to new models and latest stuff because they used to live in communistic system. But me as a West European (socialist) was thinking , what is wrong with the older models?
It is all marketing and propaganda to sell and to sell. Because motox it is about making fun and who cares really about latest updates or 2011 model. Most of us by now should know that we will not go any faster on the latest model. It is just that marketing tells you that latest is much much better.
We know that we will never be worldchampion or whatever so who actually needs the latest model? Or the high tech stuff.
What we need is a nice motox motor which is easy to repair and cheap to maintain. A 2 stroke. Now again lots of people think that they have to have a 4 stroke to be competitive. Why? Because marketing told them. Laptimes tell a completely other thing. 250 f and 450 f have the same laptimes. So you will NOT be faster on a 450 then on a 250.
Now we want an updated 2 stroke. Why? I told you. It is the economy! They tell you what to do. Only it stops when noone want to have the latest 4 strokes and are even buying secondhand 2 strokes of 5 year old and so on. Here the economy stops the capitalistic system fails because we do not do anymore what THEY told us to do or to buy.
Same with credit crisis: the system works when we still try to pay our debts but it does not work anymore when we say,: here are the keys of my house figure it out yourself.
So let them figure it out by themselves with their 4 strokes.
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I always was a little confused as to why anyone would buy a 2010 YZ250, when they could buy the exact same bike for considerably less by getting an '07 or '08. Maybe it's the peace of mind of knowing you've got something new from the crate and therefore the parts are all in good condition?
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I always was a little confused as to why anyone would buy a 2010 YZ250, when they could buy the exact same bike for considerably less by getting an '07 or '08. Maybe it's the peace of mind of knowing you've got something new from the crate and therefore the parts are all in good condition?
Well I'd guess resale would stay higher though per year as well. I'd like to find a 2007 CR250, but those are like finding diamonds. Obviously no dealers have them, and anyone who has them is asking like $4,000 for them around here unless they are all used up. But the latest year always brings more, even if it is the same. So in 2015, the 2010 model YZ will still be worth more than the 05.
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It's the placebo effect, same reason I mentioned in another thread. All original goooood, rebuilt with new parts baaad, newer year goooood. Logic doesn't ever enter the minds b/c there are a lot of cases where an older bike is just as good if not better than a newer bike. Even though these are the same bike, newer year gooood.
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I have yet to see the price range difference from a 04-96 bikes on craigslist. They don't do any research, they simply price it for what they think it worth. This goes back to the whole lottery sale and the fact people are broke. Your not going to find deals until people truly have nothing left.
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It's the placebo effect, same reason I mentioned in another thread. All original goooood, rebuilt with new parts baaad, newer year goooood. Logic doesn't ever enter the minds b/c there are a lot of cases where an older bike is just as good if not better than a newer bike. Even though these are the same bike, newer year gooood.
I bought mine because I wanted a new bike, I don't think there is anything wrong with a 2007-08, I just wanted a new one.
If I was looking for a wise investment, I probably would not buy a motorcycle at all.
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It sounds to me like the Brian Regan joke about refrigerators.
"This one keeps all your food cold for $600. This one keeps all your food cold for $800. Check this bad boy out, $1400, keeps all your food cold."
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It comes down to money as to why some people prefer a newer bike. Lets face it, if all bikes cost the same, which one would you choose, a brand new 2010 or 2011 YZ or a really nice used 2005? I bet 9 outta 10 people would grab the brand new one. And for a good reason, you have ZERO wear on any components. You get a nice warm fuzzy feeling that you can throw a leg over the bike and just ride it for several outtings before even having to check on some components.
The reason why not everyone has a brand new bikes is because we can't all afford to drop $6K or $7K or more on a bike that when you get mud on it looks about the same as a clean $2K bike. I've been riding since 1988 and never been able to justify the price of a new bike. I always advocated for the "value" in about a 3 year old bike. But now that I'm 32 and making more money, suddenly I can "afford" a new bike. The big reason I dropped the coin on one is because I wanted to have that experience of a brand new, worry free machine that I didn't have to wonder who wrenched on it, or why the airbox lid is missing, etc...
It just depends on where you are in life. Another important factor is our health. I know the older I've gotten, the more a good day of riding takes out of me. I wrench my back a lot more often and have to wonder if I'll even WANT to ride a full on MX bike in another 6 years even. When I was 18 I had all the time in the world.
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Brand new I can understand, its when both bikes are used I sometimes can't understand.
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And if the price difference between an '07 and a '10 was, like, a grand then I could definitely see it. But in the real world you're paying double for the bike so you can delay going onto the "maintenance schedule" for a year or something (judging by the way people burn through parts). It seems to me that it would just make a lot of sense to grab a slightly worn bike, go on a brief replacing spree until you get the warm fuzzies going, then pocket the savings so that you can then mod your bike just how you want it to make it better than the stock new one could ever be.
Honest opinion, I think buying a brand new example of a model that hasn't been updated in a few years, is just a waste. I've used this example before, but take the 2010 Charger, which is near-as-makes-no-difference identical to a 2006. I can't imagine why anyone would buy the 2010, in the year 2010. It's the same car as the '06 or the '07, but the difference in cost (and I looked this up) is $15,000 vs $32,000. I can see the new one being more, and it should be, because you're not going to have to replace major components for a longer time, but I can't see any amount of "warm fuzzy factor" being worth $17,000 in that segment. If you really want warm fuzzies, buy a pair of '06s and then you'll really be set for life, and still for less than the "new" one.
I guess the point of this rant is, thanks to depreciation, I personally think that unless you're going vintage, living three model-years in the past will allow you to live 99% as well as the guy who has to have everything new, but do it on 50% the budget. Or to look at it another way, spend just as much as the other guy does, and live twice as well.
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What about next year when American showrooms are flooded with thousands of new maicos.
Will buyers be fools for paying 10k for a 125?
Will you be a fool and buy one?
Will I be a fool for not buying one?
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in my country there is a cuote
"i'm to pour to buy cheaper things"
i have 2 bikes 1 klx450r 2009 new from the box (o parts bought in 2 years)
and 1 kx 250 2003 wich i race sometimes (i spent hell of a lot to chang parts)if i sold it and add the money wich i spend on parts,i probably bought an 2007 model and didn't waste time on wainting for parts,repair'it
let's say that that's no problem
but try seling a bike from 2003 or an 2007 wich cost you the same money,and see how much you get for them :)
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Snow, that is exactly what I was saying. I have enough money in an 02 that I could have bought a show room hold-over brand new bike. I have heard of and seen friends of mine go 100+ hours and 2-3 years without replacing "anything" on their bikes.
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I bought this 1997 RM250 (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z84/Micahdogg/rm_1.jpg) back in 2000. I got a great deal on it, but I put enough money in it to be able to buy a new bike. In 2004 I sold it for $1600, which is all I could get at the time.
It got replaced with this 2001 RM 250 (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z84/Micahdogg/DSC03189.jpg) which I was starting to get quite a bit of money invested in. After riding a friends 2005 YZ250 last year and feeling how tractible that motor was, it really made me want more from my bike. I was contemplating a full motor rebuild geared toward more low end - and basically just throwing a few grand at the bike. That is when I remembered the outcome of my 1997 RM and decided I could probably just bite the bullet on a new one.
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Here is what people need understand. Once you buy something, its value is cut by 50%, and your never going to see that money again. This is the problem with making payments of a period of 3-4 years. As for people saying that with the money they spent to repair an older bike they could have bought a newer one, problem, you will end up buying parts for new bike as well.
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not all really factory
i head a deal on a brand new kx 2007 for 2500 euros with lots of spare parts
but i didn't had at that moment the money .....
also a second hand ktm 520 from 2000 it's at 300 euro on the market
and at the ktm dealers it's 5000 brand new
it depends from area to area :)
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EXACTLY! Show me any track any day, a rider who hasn't spent a wad on aftermarket parts for his 250F or 450F... Here's where I love to compare, 2 strokes are cheaper to put parts on as well. I have my 2006 CR125. I have put in a new crank, CR250 Forks, new piston, new wheels and tires and countless other things on it. It is better than new and have less than $2000 in it total. I will be putting about $600 or so in it soon though for a 144 kit. But either way, I'll compare anyone's bike against mine. Even a brand new one. CR500AF, same thing. $2,000 in it. Now of course, most people can't do the 500 thingy. But the 125, most can rebuild a 2 stroke motor. I bought it for $1,000 and then put on the parts. Someone didn't think they needed an aircleaner...
Also, I'd like to point out that many of the new 4 stroke buyers have loans out on them, so the cost is even higher than they say.
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As for people saying that with the money they spent to repair an older bike they could have bought a newer one, problem, you will end up buying parts for new bike as well.
Not if it's a KTM :) I've got the billet hubs, excel rims, filter, pipe/silencer, v-force, etc... The only thing I'm buying is what I would need for any bike - tall bars + tall seat.
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i have a loan on my klx 450 and it sucks,
but i made the decision when i had no money to buy nothing,and i need i bike with license plate
and the ktm it's not an option for me :D
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In oregon yes, and I can back my statement with me having owned a 85 atc250r, and it was just as expensive to repair as a 2008 trx450r. The prices differ from state to state and you have to be simply in the right place and time for the best deal. 2500 euro = $3302.50 usd which is still cheap, but for a used bike from 1996-2002 the price shouldn't be over $1500 in comparison of what new bikes cost today, rofl.
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/2099863110.html (http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/2099863110.html) ::)
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As for people saying that with the money they spent to repair an older bike they could have bought a newer one, problem, you will end up buying parts for new bike as well.
Not if it's a KTM :) I've got the billet hubs, excel rims, filter, pipe/silencer, v-force, etc... The only thing I'm buying is what I would need for any bike - tall bars + tall seat.
I have a YZ that also came with hubs, rims, air filter, pipe/silencer, reed valve. Just because your hubs are billet doesn't mean you won't have to maintain the bike... The only maintenance advantage a KTM has is the lack of linkage bearings.