Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: JohnN on June 30, 2010, 06:37:56 AM
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When we first tell people that we are running our machine at 200:1 there is usually a small pause and then a dumb look... followed by a "You're running what?"
Yesterday we did a video to show the fuel/oil mixture of 200:1 on an inexpensive leaf blower... the results speak for themselves.
Microblue 200:1 Homelight Leaf Blower Demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMqzyGmfPsI#)
A few folks had seen the video I posted last night, but I forgot to use the finished video... no major changes, just wanted to label the gas in the beakers.
This is life changing technology....
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Wow this is truly amazing! No smoke or anything. And here I was thinking 100:1 was outrageous :D. In this state i bet it would run just fine even with no oil for some time :o. What if you gave the cylinder the same treatment as you did with the bearings ??
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Thats just insane mixing that YZ that lean, its hard to believe, seriously.
And awesome that its working, still scary, lol, would love to get some of those bearings for my bike and see how they work, it sounds like it make such a huge difference.
Really wish I could be at RedBud, but Ill be watching times will at work, lol, and its my Bday so going out for dinner!!
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DangisMX - Excellent question!!
In the blurb above I did not quite give all the information about what we are doing, mainly because I like to give you guys on the forum exclusive info as soon as possible.
When I posted the video here earlier I was in the middle of writing an article for the main page, which is now complete. That should fill in some of the blanks for you guys.
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/06/can-a-two-stroke-run-at-2001-fueloil-mixture/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/06/can-a-two-stroke-run-at-2001-fueloil-mixture/)
Now to answer your question, all the internal moving parts in the Project Two 50 engine have already been MicroBlue coated. That includes cylinder, piston, rings, wrist pin, bearings, crank, complete gear box, with ceramic bearings in every high-speed area.
To say this motor is fast, would be an understatement.
Braaappp!
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Outstanding. To me this is beauty, like art or poetry :D. When I purchase my next bike i have got to get me this MicroBlue stuff. I wouldn't even dare to run it at 200:1, 100:1 would suffice :D.
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Id love to put some of these in my bike if I ever have to do a whole engine before I ever get a new bike, but they dont even show stuff for my RM, plus its expensive.
I would love to see some data showing what a difference these bearing actually made, like HP wise, etc. by themselves, like take a stock bike, dyno it, then put whole Microblue engine kit it and dyno it!
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Thats crazy...............200:1!! I bet Project 250 must have some evil throttle response right, the thing must rev to the moon.
Definately would love to do that to the engine on my CR ;)
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It`s some interresting stuff
that would have been something for my tm100
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That's awesome. Very interesting. As a gear head I love this stuff and I am fascinated that it will run with that mixture.
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Hey, I know that the article on the main page says that alisports will have coverage of the first race, but, I can't find the link for that on their site, I have to find a way to watch NBC on Saturday, I don't care about speed, who will watch the lites class anyways?
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Hey, I know that the article on the main page says that alisports will have coverage of the first race, but, I can't find the link for that on their site, I have to find a way to watch NBC on Saturday, I don't care about speed, who will watch the lites class anyways?
I would if the AMA every got off their arse and fixed the cc disparity 8)
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Here's a question. You say you've coated all the high-speed moving parts with the MicroBlue coating, but how much does all of that cost? Is it a major modification that could only be affordable by a racing team (even one fairly low in the budget like P250) or would it be within financial reason for someone to do this with his '82 Husky and do some world shaking?
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One of the functions of the oil in an engine is to help with ring seal. How does this "Micro-Blue" address that if you are running so little oil?
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One of the functions of the oil in an engine is to help with ring seal. How does this "Micro-Blue" address that if you are running so little oil?
Chokey... please buckle your seat belt on this one.... the coatings require that you totally re-think the paradigm that has been in place for over 30 years. With that said, here we go...
When you MicroBlue a cylinder the bore must be perfectly smooth... NO cross hatching at all!
I know, I know... it sounds crazy, right?
But let's use this analogy to help you along, if you are water skiing on a choppy body of water, how well do your skis stay in contact with the water? Now what if that lake was smooth as glass?
Once you have your chrome smooth bore with matched rings MicroBlue coated, there is no break in! Best of all the parts last much, much longer than standard parts...
This past week we have spent at MicroBlue, learning more about the process and what's involved. It's been an amazing education.
Let's turn your question around for a moment and ask this.. what is the reason for the cross hatching in the cylinder?
As for pricing information and comparisons between stock and MicroBlue coated, these are in the works.
It has to be proven first, say in National competition.... :-* :-*
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Well, I think I can safely say we're all very impressed and hoping for the best. I'm thinking that if it's not ridiculously expensive, this is the sort of technology we might want to see in all motor applications. Not only bikes, but cars, snowmobiles, boats, generators, lawn equipment, etc. Anything that someone has managed to put a V-8 in (which includes blenders) could potentially benefit from this kind of friction-reducing technology. Or, maybe we want to be really aggressive with this and say that MicroBlue only gets to be used on two-strokes, and use that as leverage?
Okay, so obviously I'm over-stepping myself here, but I still think that if it's not prohibitively expensive, it can do an immense amount of economic and environmental good for millions, or even billions of people. There's a lot of friction in the world that ought not to be there.
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Question John.
Has the combustion temperature changed at all and are you running a different temp plug ?
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One of the functions of the oil in an engine is to help with ring seal. How does this "Micro-Blue" address that if you are running so little oil?
Chokey... please buckle your seat belt on this one.... the coatings require that you totally re-think the paradigm that has been in place for over 30 years. With that said, here we go...
When you MicroBlue a cylinder the bore must be perfectly smooth... NO cross hatching at all!
I know, I know... it sounds crazy, right?
But let's use this analogy to help you along, if you are water skiing on a choppy body of water, how well do your skis stay in contact with the water? Now what if that lake was smooth as glass?
Once you have your chrome smooth bore with matched rings MicroBlue coated, there is no break in! Best of all the parts last much, much longer than standard parts...
This past week we have spent at MicroBlue, learning more about the process and what's involved. It's been an amazing education.
Let's turn your question around for a moment and ask this.. what is the reason for the cross hatching in the cylinder?
As for pricing information and comparisons between stock and MicroBlue coated, these are in the works.
It has to be proven first, say in National competition.... :-* :-*
That all sounds intriguing, but it still didn't answer the question that I asked. I know the cross hatch is to retain oil, and the oil serves more than one function. Lubrication is the obvious one, but it also helps to complete the seal between the ring and the bore surface. No matter how good the machining (or coating) is, no surface is perfect, and the oil helps to seal those minute imperfections between the ring surface and the bore surface. So with so little oil, does this effect the ring seal?
Not trying to be critical, trying to learn.
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Hey bud,
He does answer your question. It has also been posted before on how the micro blue technology works.
I think what you want to know, is that components of the top end are finished so that they are "PERFECT", and this is looked at under ultra high powered microscopes, and then these components are then coated. This allows the perfect ring seal with almost no oil. Also greatly reduces the wear on these components. Remember when John said that you have to totally re-think the paradigm that has been in place for over 30 years. This is why.
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Hey bud,
He does answer your question. It has also been posted before on how the micro blue technology works.
I think what you want to know, is that components of the top end are finished so that they are "PERFECT", and this is looked at under ultra high powered microscopes, and then these components are then coated. This allows the perfect ring seal with almost no oil. Also greatly reduces the wear on these components. Remember when John said that you have to totally re-think the paradigm that has been in place for over 30 years. This is why.
No need to be a smartass, I was asking a serious question simply to learn. Obviously I didn't feel like he completely answered my question, hence the reason I asked again. Forgive me for never having heard of this process before...
A "perfect finish" is seemingly impossible on a metallic surface with standard machine tooling. How is this done? And can it be done on a cost-effective basis? While it sounds intriguing, the technology doesn't have a future beyond sponsored race teams if it's prohibitively expensive. Not too many recreational riders and racers are going to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a high-tech coating process.
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Chokey, did you see the bit on "super finishing"? I'm not sure exactly how it's achieved, but it's part of the process prior to coating. When viewed under a microscope, the "super finished" parts are glass smooth.
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Eitherway, Chokey does have a point. This Process isn't very new. this process hasbeen around awhile. It just has different names. I had a Powerglide's internals fully finished by a process very similar to this. This was behind a 1500hp BBC. Unbelievable wear characterisitics and smoothness.
As for the cylinder and ring seal, There is alot of heat in there and the metal expands and contracts, thus, ring seal might suffer. But being a 2 stroke it's lubrication needs are different. Besides, how can you go wrong using Amsoil??? LOL, I'm a dealer so I use all their products as well.
Being a strictly competition motor, I would abide in in this as we did in our drag motors. No coolant, no alternator, etc. All we can do is see what happens and wait for the results of the internal inspections.
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Hey bud,
He does answer your question. It has also been posted before on how the micro blue technology works.
I think what you want to know, is that components of the top end are finished so that they are "PERFECT", and this is looked at under ultra high powered microscopes, and then these components are then coated. This allows the perfect ring seal with almost no oil. Also greatly reduces the wear on these components. Remember when John said that you have to totally re-think the paradigm that has been in place for over 30 years. This is why.
No need to be a smartass, I was asking a serious question simply to learn. Obviously I didn't feel like he completely answered my question, hence the reason I asked again. Forgive me for never having heard of this process before...
A "perfect finish" is seemingly impossible on a metallic surface with standard machine tooling. How is this done? And can it be done on a cost-effective basis? While it sounds intriguing, the technology doesn't have a future beyond sponsored race teams if it's prohibitively expensive. Not too many recreational riders and racers are going to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a high-tech coating process.
Sorry bud,
There were no smart ass comments here. I was just trying to answer your question.
???????????
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Has the combustion temperature changed at all and are you running a different temp plug ?
We have only done readings from outside the motor... it runs quite a bit cooler than stock. We have been using the same temp plug as stock... We were amazed at how cool the engine was after the 5 lap "practice".
A "perfect finish" is seemingly impossible on a metallic surface with standard machine tooling. How is this done? And can it be done on a cost-effective basis? While it sounds intriguing, the technology doesn't have a future beyond sponsored race teams if it's prohibitively expensive. Not too many recreational riders and racers are going to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a high-tech coating process.
Agreed... a perfect finish is not possible with standard machine tooling. It is a process using ceramic media and a special solution to superpolish the parts. You are correct that this process will not be for everyone as it will certainly be in the thousands of dollars and not the hundreds. Although some of the secondary benefits might change some recreational riders minds. Parts lasting much, much longer than stock could be a selling point to some folks.
But again, we are not so much trying to sell this stuff as tell you what we are doing. If someone is interested, they can decide for themselves.
I know the cross hatch is to retain oil, and the oil serves more than one function. Lubrication is the obvious one, but it also helps to complete the seal between the ring and the bore surface. No matter how good the machining (or coating) is, no surface is perfect, and the oil helps to seal those minute imperfections between the ring surface and the bore surface. So with so little oil, does this effect the ring seal?
Chokey, you are not the only one confused by this, honestly the first time I heard it I was the same as you, asking lots of questions. With that said, I have to tell you that I'm not half the mechanical guy that you are. I know some stuff, but when it gets a bit technical... I'm not the best guy to ask.
Our tests show that compression increases when the engine has been MicroBlue coated. It also pumps much more air which is why the bike needs such a large main jet. From everything we've experienced the seal is better. I don't claim to understand why it does, just know that's what we have found.
Hopefully this comes closer to answering your question... if not I'll ask Craig from MicroBlue to come on here and answer it for you.
This Process isn't very new. this process has been around awhile.
Sapper you are correct, coating technology has been around for a while, but this process is only about 10 years old. There are many specifics that affect coating application. When any one of a number of variables are changed, it greatly affects the coating itself. Not trying to say that other coatings don't work, but this stuff is a bit different and there is a specific application sequence, which ensures the toughest coating possible. Which can be verified by testing under a microscope.
If I have missed anyone's question please ask again...
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A "perfect finish" is seemingly impossible on a metallic surface with standard machine tooling. How is this done? And can it be done on a cost-effective basis? While it sounds intriguing, the technology doesn't have a future beyond sponsored race teams if it's prohibitively expensive. Not too many recreational riders and racers are going to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a high-tech coating process.
Agreed... a perfect finish is not possible with standard machine tooling. It is a process using ceramic media and a special solution to superpolish the parts. You are correct that this process will not be for everyone as it will certainly be in the thousands of dollars and not the hundreds. Although some of the secondary benefits might change some recreational riders minds. Parts lasting much, much longer than stock could be a selling point to some folks.
But again, we are not so much trying to sell this stuff as tell you what we are doing. If someone is interested, they can decide for themselves.
I know the cross hatch is to retain oil, and the oil serves more than one function. Lubrication is the obvious one, but it also helps to complete the seal between the ring and the bore surface. No matter how good the machining (or coating) is, no surface is perfect, and the oil helps to seal those minute imperfections between the ring surface and the bore surface. So with so little oil, does this effect the ring seal?
Chokey, you are not the only one confused by this, honestly the first time I heard it I was the same as you, asking lots of questions. With that said, I have to tell you that I'm not half the mechanical guy that you are. I know some stuff, but when it gets a bit technical... I'm not the best guy to ask.
Our tests show that compression increases when the engine has been MicroBlue coated. It also pumps much more air which is why the bike needs such a large main jet. From everything we've experienced the seal is better. I don't claim to understand why it does, just know that's what we have found.
Hopefully this comes closer to answering your question... if not I'll ask Craig from MicroBlue to come on here and answer it for you.
LOL...well, it does kinda answer my question, but it also makes me have more...LOL
I take your word for it that compression increases, I just don't understand how. Even with a perfectly smooth bore surface, it just doesn't seem that the ring can seal perfectly to the surface if it isn't also oily, so I'm trying to wrap my brain around it, and thinking isn't my strong point. I also don't understand how a simple coating can significantly increase air flow?
I would love to hear from Microblue Craig, I could ask him questions all day long, as this sort of thing intrigues me greatly. I love this kind of tech stuff. 8)
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If the rings seal better then there will be less expansion gases blowing past the rings and into the cases so the engine has less blowby gas to reintake and therefore increase intake volume.
A smooth surface need less oil to make it seal, think of a good fork seal vs a rooted one
Now Im just making this shit up as I go but sounds good to me ;D
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I know everyone knows this but the fact is, the cylinder will always be lubricated, top and bottom. Of course you know this that because of the mixed gas. Unlike a 4 stroke motor, the fuel runs all through the rotating assembly. So there's no need to worry about upper and lower cylinder oiling.
The process we used for drag racing was called Rem process. It was a super-finshing of parts. We had the whole trans done, all the valvetrain components, connecting rods, etc.
I f I had someone here locally that did this, I'd have the trans in all the bikes done. We race just about every weekend and can't do without the bikes to send them off.
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Here's my speculation about the breathing and compression thing. When I was reading through the two-stroke tuner's handbook, it mentioned that flow through the engine doesn't always do what you expect it to. There are things like boundary layers and eddies and things like that. I'm guessing that, when you get rid of all the microscopic errors in the metal and make it all smooth, you drastically decrease these factors. Without boundary layers, there may be more effective volume for air and fuel to move through, increasing how much can be moved through ports and making it more cooperative during the scavenging process. More airflow also probably means more compression, because there's more fluid being packed into the same area, therefore increasing your pressure.
This is all just a WAG, but it seems plausible enough to me. I can't really think of any other way that a coating would affect airflow.
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More speculation, assuming increased ring seal / less blow-by and reduced friction heat:
Less heat in the crank case would be my main suspect, that would increase filling density of the crank case somewhat.
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Boundry layers are very important in maintaining high duct velocities, airflow inside an engine is very turbulent boundry layers assist in overcoming some of the turbulence.
As good as any cylinder filling is the pipe has to plug more back into the cylinder anyway.
Rings require gas pressure behind them to seal.
In the end if it works and drops lap times and increases dyno numbers who really cares?
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Just shooting from the hip here, But if you think of the super finish on the ring and cylinder contact area it almost seems like a paralel like surface.....I want to know more!
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The three real questions are:
1. How much does this cost, i.e. if I tore my motor down how much would it cost me to coat the cylinder, rings, rode, bearings, gears, etc.
2. What does this do for the lifespan of the engine. i.e. will it make it last longer or just give it increased HP for a period of time or do nothing more than the same life span as current just don't have to use as much conventional oil as you normally do. How long do the rings last in this setup.
3. How long can the bike run before it needs re-coated (how long does the coating last)? Different from #2, in #2 I'm asking when I need to replace the top end or bearings.
Maybe these were already answered but I missed them.
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oh ya, #1 needs a breakdown:
A. Preperation cost (i.e. clyinder smoothing, bearings anything needs done? or special bearings only).
B. Cost of coating components (cylinder coating, etc.)
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Boundry layers are very important in maintaining high duct velocities, airflow inside an engine is very turbulent boundry layers assist in overcoming some of the turbulence.
As good as any cylinder filling is the pipe has to plug more back into the cylinder anyway.
Rings require gas pressure behind them to seal.
In the end if it works and drops lap times and increases dyno numbers who really cares?
I do, I'm one of those that just have to know why.
I'm pretty sure that the surface finish it self has no measurable effect on the flow inside the engine.
First off, I highly doubt that they coat anything but moving parts (well, plus the cylinder bore). If that assumption is true, then there's not much "wet" surface that can change the flow characteristics (wow, did I spell that correctly?).
Secondly, a really smooth surface can only delay the boundary layer going from turbulent to laminar flow. -I'm pretty sure that the flow inside a two-stroke engine is well in the turbulent regime, no matter what surface finish. Corrections are welcome :)