Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: 2smoker on May 21, 2010, 07:26:45 PM
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http://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Davey-Coombs,1431/GuyB,64 (http://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Davey-Coombs,1431/GuyB,64)
Having a fair and equal playfield???? lol.. The sport is doomed . I will wipe my arse with his RACERXILL mag.
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Yeah he's a ...........................
(http://bestandworstofokc.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/douchebag.jpg)
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NO CONSPIRACY HERE !!!!!!!!!!!
Ahhhh men in black suits are at my door. Gotta go !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Its tuff to see the forest for the trees when you're in the OEM's pockets....
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I'm pretty sure you guys would have had made the same decision if your were in his position.
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I told you guys over and over the 250cc vs 250cc is never gonna happen. The only hope is 150cc and 300cc changes. Start pushing that or just forget about anything at all. My last time saying it.
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While I don't always agree with some of the decisions that DC makes (or the committees and sub-committees) I think you guys need to cut him a break.
He is doing the best he can under the circumstances that he has inherited.
I watched the video twice, because I wasn't exactly sure what he was saying... what I heard was 250F vs 250 two stroke is not fair, because the two-stroke is 2 seconds a lap faster.
In our heart of hearts we all know this is true, at least at the Pro level.
I think we need to pay attention to what miedosoracing is saying and work at closing the handicap, so that there can be great racing all around.
Calling someone out or names will not help anyone or move our ideas to the forefront. We need to learn to "play" nice and work with folks like DC to improve our sport.
The one thing I know for sure is that when you ask 10 people how things should be run, you get 11 opinions!! It's not easy to run a race series and make everyone happy.
At some point we may find that the only way we can accomplish our goal is to start or support a two-stroke Pro Motocross Race Series.
Just saying...
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How about we get out and race our two strokes? After all motocross is a grassroots sport. Don't buy four strokes and don't sit behind a keyboard bad mouthing them. On the amateur level the 250s and 450's are beatable by a competent rider on a two stroke. Get out and ride. Buy a new YZ250 or KTM 250 and race it! Freshen up you CR and race it! That is what the manufacturers pay attention to,money.
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Sounds to me like the big thing is the lack of production by the manufacturers, as if they were in some vacuum and just made random decisions and the buying public were powerless to do anything but buy what is produced. That organization has an immense level of control over what is produced, and it sounds like the Big Five have managed to make him think (or just say) that it's the other way about.
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Sounds to me like the big thing is the lack of production by the manufacturers, as if they were in some vacuum and just made random decisions and the buying public were powerless to do anything but buy what is produced. That organization has an immense level of control over what is produced, and it sounds like the Big Five have managed to make him think (or just say) that it's the other way about.
1 correction on what was said. only 1 out of all 7 he mentioned doesn't produce the 250 2 stroke. only 2 others don't ship them here.
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Yeah, a couple of things that I would like to know. He says they have the data on two strokes being faster than the four strokes. If they are talking about that test that Transworld MX did with Jason Lawrence riding a stock 250f then riding a stock 250 2 stroke, then that aint data. Compare a prepped 250 2 stroke race bike against a factory 250 four stroke. Then show us those results. There aint a two second difference there, I guarantee it.
Hey Miedoso, whats the latest with PRO NMX?? I had a look at the website, but havent seen any recent updates. Only that there is a change in schedule.
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i was gonna ask Miedoso about the PRO N MX deal too.
so whats up? hows it going?
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i was gonna ask Miedoso about the PRO N MX deal too.
so whats up? hows it going?
With my big mouth, no one will touch me. Everyone who said they would help me, on the inside won't touch me now. The race I had scheduled got cancelled the Monday after I passed out fliers at the Dallas Supercross. The track I was gonna use is a AMA sanctioned track. Just a bunch of things like that. I burnt my own bridge, I know it. So sorry to you guys for that. But now I'm using the website as a told you so. Things like 2 way radios, number plates as ads, gear etc. Things that weren't even being talked about, now are "being tested." DC is very smart. You guys don't give him enough credit. He doesn't miss a thing when it comes to the industry. He sees everything I write, but responds to nothing, to stay out of the fray. Guys like Guyb and engine Ice dave try to paint me as crazy etc. It's the industries way of running off threats... Don't believe me, go read about a guy named TFS. He isn't crazy obviously, because he actually now works for NASA. But that is what everyone said, and now he's gone. It goes like this. The big guys start calling someone crazy. The no bodies jump in to be part of the "insiders" and start agreeing with them and it just blows up. It runs that person off in disgust and life back to normal.
That said, I'm working in the background still. I'm pushing 144cc and 300cc rule changes and need your help. The cc for cc thing is never gonna happen so let that go. There are some other things behind the scenes that I'm currently using my money for the series, on. I am not putting my name on any of it, to save it from death. So things that happen soon will not have ProNMX or Miedoso Racing's names on them, but they will be for the cause.
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Dude thats heavy. Real heavy. Sorry to hear that. I hope that you stick at it and can have some positive influences for two strokes still. You seem highly influential, and with all your experiences can really help push the cause forward. The 150cc and 300cc capacity increase is an interesting one for me. I suppose there are a few manufacturers now building the 150, but none building a 300, with KTM only offering a bolt on kit, and Husqvarna only building an XC model. For me this is getting away from traditional capacities, but now that KTM has released a 350 four stroke that is very competitive, then who knows what the future holds as far as capacity limits and classes. It looks as though the 350 will be a big seller, and a good idea, but as I read on another forum, will be a bike that makes 450f power but needs 250f maintenance. Not my cup of tea. Do you think that the small capacity increase in both classes would be enough to give either the 144 or 300cc 2 strokes a fighting chance at a Pro level. ( I know John and Mike would love an extra 50cc) Would it bring any parity back to either classes and have both 2 and four strokes racing competitively together? Or would it be only the die hard two stroke riders that give it a go and have to really battle just to run around towards the back of the pack.
Now I have heard the minimum age limit thing being spoken about again. To me there seems like one easy fix. 125 cc two stroke only class, with a maximum age of 19. This gives young up and coming racers a chance to learn the national tracks, make a name for themselves, and brings back three racing categories. Add to that incredibly tight, exciting racing. You can then have the 250 class, 2 or 4 stroke, and a true Open class. This is what is happening here in Australia, and working well, except that the U/19s class can race 250fs or 250 2 strokes. The guys behind the running of our national championship have the interests of the sport at heart and I really respect that. The World GP scene has proven that the 125cc junior class would be incredibly popular. The 250 2 strokes arent going to take over the world if they are allowed to race in the lites class. There is only a handful being ridden in the lites class over here, and havent managed to win a moto yet. This is with some really good riders choosing to race the 2 stroke again.
I know you said that it isnt going to happen, but what are the powers that be(AMA) scared of. Displacement parity can only be good for the sport in very uncertain times. It gives everyday racers a chance to compete on the national level if they are good enough. Use Australia as a guide. We have a series that rivals any worldwide for ability, as we have shown, with plenty of aussies over there racing the AMA national championship. Good win today Chad ! Anyway, two strokes havent taken over the sport here, but they are an option, and that is all we ask. A chance to compete. Sorry if this was long winded but I am passionate about the cause. And a great cause it is!!!!!!!
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Did you notice Davey's body movements when the 2stroke came up? He really didn't want to talk about it.But his adleb lines were well rehursed. Let Project two 50 start the snow ball effect.Let's all picth in and build some really hot smokers that make bigger and bigger dents in that corporate armor. What I really mean is what would the factories due if every privateer line up on a two stroke and only the factory guys were on 4-strokes? That would send the message we want our sport pure again.
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Nice comments miedos. :)
Things in the States seem be moving slower then elsewhere.
NZ,Aussie,Brittan & Europe have made strides to bring back the 2 Stroke. 8)
With cost being the main factor.
The new GP125 class is great and will only become bigger soon. :) Hopefully we will be back to 3 classes soon.
Next years junior worlds will be 2 stroke only as well. :)
The tide is changing and am sure the manufactors are watching closely.
The main stumbling block that I see is that the States is the largest market for bikes.
Just because NZ & Aussie have changed the rules, it wont make a damn difference to what the Manufactors do.
I hope i'm wrong but i don't see alot changing until things change in the states.
As a few of you know you can still buy new RM's & KX's in other parts of the world because the volume is small and people still want them.
As an aside. The National 85cc class was changed this year to 85cc only. NO 150F's.
They decided to run a 150F class by itself. Obviously to please Honda.
The grids were full of 85's. :)
The 150 class had 4 entrants. ???
I dont think Honda will be bringing in many CRF150R's this year.
The reason for the change ? COST. A new 150 $9k. A new 85 $6k.
I do like the idea of 150/300.
There are currantly 4 Euro manufactors that produce 300's.
It would not be hard for them to put out a MX version.TM & KTM actually do.
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"he's two seconds faster. Got to tell you that's not even racing"
Of course not, the object of racing is to ride the slowest machine possible.
"Got to ride what the OEMs are making" .... aka "you guys should just STFU and buy whatever Honda's selling and pay them whatever they want for it. Its a lot of fun to pay 3000 to rebuild a top end than 100 bucks."
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OK so he,s saying that they have to do what the big 4 say !OK so there is no need to call us conspiracy nuts ?.There it is in black and white.
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A 250 2 stroke wouldn't even have qualified in the 250F class this past weekend.
46 111 Michael Sleeter KTM 250 SXF 2:21.094 0.000 - 2:21.094 - 2:27.164
250 Motocross
SES #5 SES #6
ROCKSTAR ENERGY HANGTOWN CLASSIC
1 377 Christophe Pourcel Kawasaki KX 250F 2:12.352 0.000 2:13.720 - 2:12.352 - - -
2 20 Broc Tickle Yamaha YZ 250F 2:12.452 0.000 2:12.452 - 2:15.921 - - -
3 38 Trey Canard Honda CRF250R 2:14.209 0.000 2:14.209 - 2:15.117 - - -
4 49 William Hahn Honda CRF250R 2:14.243 0.000 2:14.243 - 2:15.802 - - -
5 12 Jake Weimer Kawasaki KX 250F 2:14.281 0.000 2:14.281 - 2:16.568 - - -
6 577 Martin Davalos Yamaha YZ250F 2:14.315 0.000 2:14.315 - 2:18.046 - - -
7 17 Justin Barcia Honda CRF250R 2:14.837 0.000 2:15.066 - 2:14.837 - - -
8 243 Eli Tomac Honda CRF250R 2:14.851 0.000 2:14.851 - 2:15.062 - - -
9 19 Tommy Searle KTM 250 SXF 2:14.910 0.000 2:15.981 - 2:14.910 - - -
10 28 Tyla Rattray Kawasaki KX 250F 2:15.333 0.000 2:15.456 - 2:15.333 - - -
11 21 Blake Wharton Honda CRF250R 2:15.362 0.000 2:15.362 - 2:16.510 - - -
12 108 Dean Wilson Kawsaki KX250F 2:15.566 0.000 2:15.566 - 2:16.570 - - -
13 31 Matthew Lemoine Suzuki RMZ250 2:15.609 0.000 2:15.609 - 2:17.168 - - -
14 341 Nico Izzi Yamaha YZ250F 2:15.612 0.000 2:15.612 - 2:15.910 - - -
15 200 Cole Seely Honda CRF250R 2:15.676 0.000 2:15.676 - 2:15.948 - - -
16 585 Travis Baker Yamaha YZ 250F 2:16.141 0.000 2:16.141 - 2:16.690 - - -
17 592 Jake Canada Kawasaki KX 250F 2:16.480 0.000 - 2:21.256 - 2:16.480 - -
18 66 Blake Baggett Suzuki RM Z250 2:16.561 0.000 2:16.561 - 2:17.110 - - -
19 36 Darryn Durham Honda CRF250R 2:16.815 0.000 2:34.460 - 2:16.815 - - -
20 48 Max Anstie Yamaha YZ250F 2:17.020 0.000 2:17.020 - 2:17.547 - - -
21 61 Vince Friese Yamaha YZ250F 2:17.120 0.000 2:17.120 - 2:17.335 - - -
22 116 Ryan Morais Suzuki RMZ250 2:17.134 0.000 2:17.134 - 2:21.880 - - -
23 175 Phillip Nicoletti KTM 250 SXF 2:17.384 0.000 2:17.384 - 2:18.778 - - -
24 859 Matiss Karro Suzuki RMZ250 2:17.930 0.000 - 2:18.897 - 2:17.930 - -
25 613 James DeCotis Honda CRF250R 2:18.125 0.000 2:18.125 - 2:18.723 - - -
26 87 Les Smith Honda CRF250R 2:18.406 0.000 2:18.652 - 2:18.406 - - -
27 102 Christopher Gosselaar Honda CRF250R 2:18.502 0.000 2:19.261 - 2:18.502 - - -
28 63 Sean Borkenhagen KTM 250SXF 2:18.620 0.000 2:18.620 - 2:19.837 - - -
29 373 Drew Gosselaar Honda CRF250R 2:18.740 0.000 - 2:18.740 - 2:21.037 - -
30 99 Topher Ingalls Yamaha YZ 250F 2:19.016 0.000 2:19.016 - 2:22.115 - - -
31 185 Killy Rusk KTM 250 SX-F 2:19.290 0.000 - 2:20.082 - 2:19.290 - -
32 452 Colton Haaker Yamaha YZ250F 2:19.767 0.000 - 2:21.415 - 2:19.767 - -
33 92 Michael Willard Honda CRF250R 2:19.929 0.000 2:19.929 - 2:21.417 - - -
34 214 Eric Nye KTM 250 SX-F 2:20.100 0.000 - 2:20.447 - 2:20.100 - -
35 354 Christopher Johnson Suzuki RM Z250 2:20.332 0.000 - 2:20.332 - 2:21.746 - -
36 211 Tevin Tapia KTM 250 SXF 2:20.431 0.000 2:20.431 - 2:20.982 - - -
37 370 Drew Yenerich Yamaha YZ 250F 2:20.697 0.000 2:21.198 - 2:20.697 - - -
38 85 Scott Champion Kawasaki KX 250F 2:20.839 0.000 2:20.839 - 2:22.940 - - -
39 126 Hunter Hewitt Suzuki RM Z250 2:20.931 0.000 2:20.931 - 2:21.606 - - -
40 976 Josh Greco Suzuki RMZ250 2:21.075 0.000 - 2:21.491 - 2:21.075
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Hmmmmm.....
Now I don't know how Sleeter would have done had he raced a 450 or a 350, but it's kind of interesting that his lap times were so slow...
According to the powers that be, the 250 two-stroke is too fast to compete with the 250F's and yet this one couldn't even qualify at a time similar to mid-pack 250F racers?
Does anyone know if Sleeter had some problems? Injuries?
Otherwise it could have been something to garner some additional attention for KTM...
How did the "factory KTM racer for the day" do? Did he qualify? If so, how did he do?
The podium speech from Mike Alessi was like a KTM commercial.... maybe there's more than meets the eye?
Oh no.... got to head down to the lead lined bunker... I hear black helicopters!!! :o :o ;D ;D
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I think everyone should listen to what he said... I interpret that to mean the even with all the millions of dollars in research and development that the four strokes are still unable to compete with what amounts to basically ten year old technology of the two strokes... With that being said he basically goes on to state that they want to race what the manufactures produce, which is a bit of a contradiction considering KTM and Yamaha do in fact produce current model two strokes and import them into the US all Husqvarna needs is a close ratio transmission in the WR's they already import, that makes three, Maico makes four, TM makes five, Gas Gas has the ability to make it six, if Suzuki would import the 2T's they sell elsewhere that makes seven... If Honda (and I use Honda as an example because of their attitude) doesn't like the idea of old technology lapping there new technology the only need to do one thing... Build a bike that is capable of competing... A perfect example of this would be the KTM 350 that won moto 2 at Hangtown... Look we all know that technology can take us to the moon and back, but is all that really necessary, especially when Honda knows in their hearts that their current lineup can't compete with something produced by themselves ten years ago?
2 Stroke = Simplicity = Affordability = More Racers = More Bike Sales = Everyone Happy in the long run...
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Not sure yet of his finish. But in qualifying, here it is.
31 732 Tye Hames KTM 450SXF 2:17.550 0.000 - 2:17.550 - 2:20.332 -
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I hope the AMA just die like their road series.. I am not interested in of be part of an organization with no integrity and honesty. This past week-end just confirmed that D.C. was a joke with Sleeter laptimes. They invested so much time and money in the new era of 4 junk that the oem won't go back.. It is just a big nightmare.... I dont care about his position.. We want real answers.. DC is just like a politician, a damn puppet. At least Mcgrath told the truth even if the guy still has a job with Honda..the bigger 4 junk pusher out there.! How do you want the OEM to manufacture the 2 stroke again if you don't change the rules ???? A compelling competitive series lol We did the testing? We have the data? Anything legit to back up your claims? So us the riders ..we are just dumb sheep? Sorry guys.. I am just fed up with this organization and their leaders. I don't care about the 350s which is the bigger cheater bike out there...but it is ok! they stink just like everything 4 junk.
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I hope the AMA just die like their road series.. I am not interested in of be part of an organization with no integrity and honesty. This past week-end just confirmed that D.C. was a joke with Sleeter laptimes. They invested so much time and money in the new era of 4 junk that the oem won't go back.. It is just a big nightmare.... I dont care about his position.. We want real answers.. DC is just like a politician, a damn puppet. At least Mcgrath told the truth even if the guy still has a job with Honda..the bigger 4 junk pusher out there.! How do you want the OEM to manufacture the 2 stroke again if you don't change the rules ???? A compelling competitive series lol We did the testing? We have the data? Anything legit to back up your claims? So us the riders ..we are just dumb sheep? Sorry guys.. I am just fed up with this organization and their leaders. I don't care about the 350s which is the bigger cheater bike out there...but it is ok! they stink just like everything 4 junk.
Very passionate - I LIKE IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I just posted the link for that video in the motocross and SX forum in KTM talk - a bit of a hotbed of 2t vs 4t confrontation. I'm surprised it was missed so far. The blokes who so back 4ts just avoid the issue constantly - that of equivalency, and quite often shoot themselves in the foot with their own posts. By the same token , I don't have much time for some of the foolish approaches by some 2t proponents. I daresay putting it up there will result in the usual idiocy by a few regular posters there. ;D
Equivalency is the issue.
Meido = Rupert?
I have to say , I don't agree with you in just going for 144 / 300. No concessions should be made in terms of equivalency.
Anything other than capacity equivalency is a farce, and a blot on our sport.
4ts have a hell of a lot more to come - Jan Witteveen (sp) discussed as much in his monthly column in MX Digital quite often, and Moto GP, F1, Superbikes and just plain road legal 4ts show how much more is to come. So any less than equivalency not help 2ts and just ensure the current status quo remains. The irony is, that 4ts (sub and 250cc) will become more and more hyper in their power delivery - as it always has been and I think it always will be, a naturally aspirated 4t makes power by going further and further up the rev scale, sacrificing low and mid. The open (not an entirely accurate naming , I know) class should return to that - the ability for any manufacturer to try a capacity that they think will do the job, be it 2t or 4t - pretty much anything over 300cc can produce more outright power than can be used by the majority of riders on the dirt.
I ride 2ts by preference by the way, I'm not an excuse maker for 4ts.
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Rupert and I are I believe friends. He knows me and we speak/write. There are quite a few people I know on the inside, but no one will admit it. LOL But what some people agree, I agree as well, that cc for cc is fair. I go the direction I do, because of intelligent planning. This is a true story. My wife and I get out of our car. This guy walks by and is totally watching my wife. He walks right into the wall. I'm laughing by this time, and he turns and kinda giggles. He keeps watching my wife and ran right back into the freakin wall. If you run into a wall, don't keep running into the same wall. Take side steps and go around said wall. I know for a FACT directly from the source, that 250cc vs 250cc is never gonna happen. So why do one's who want to see 2 strokes out on the track, keep shooting themselves in the foot? Something you guys might want to think about. I have DC's email and cell phone number on my phone. At this point I'm sure he thinks it was his worst mistake in his life to give it too me. But fact is, I don't just pull things out of the sky. I know things that would make you guys understand where I come from more. But I can't talk about them. I still respect and consider DC a friend. Most likely not mutual though> :(
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I don't know, for some when DC says he is a fan of two strokes I believe him. I have read more than once in past issues of RX where DC has written that 4 strokes are getting too fast and that the noise of modern 4 strokes is one reason many small local tracks are getting shut down. I really cannot blame him for supporting the factories with the 4 stroke agenda now however. If he didn't, he wouldn't have much of a future. It's easy for those of us not making our living running a magazine and race series to say the things we do. Once you get into his position things change. That doesn't make it right or that I agree with him of course.
I am not on the inside at all, but I have a lot of free time (off all summer) and I am passionate about two strokes :) , so I am happy to help anyway I can. I doubt we will ever see a 250vs250 series because the factories have invested way too much money into the 4 strokes to go back, but I would love to be wrong here.
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See it doesn't really matters what DC likes or says.. Because it is not a difference maker.. What about real data with legit surveys..testing to back up his claims??? It is all words nothing really get done. Nothing justified the 4 stroke era at all.. Nothing not even the emission rules because we all know that it can be done. This is getting so stupid. We are just spectators waiting for something to happens. It is all lies and manipulation, stipulations.. We have been talking about a change for the last decade..Anything relevant happened yet? The sport @ professional level is so dead. CCs for CCs or nothing.. Do you really think that a 125cc 2 stroke can keep up with a 250cc 4 stroke? Seriously...DC won't do anything.. He owned the medias.. Racerxill..selling 4 strokes crap.. MXA are trying their best but still need contracts from the OEM.. I am big time fed up with the sheep attitude of everyone in the industry..WOW! I have no problems making fun of the higher ups because they do the same. This is frustrating and ridiculous.
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oh yeah I forgot this : http://newproductlaunch.kawasaki.com/Products/Photos.aspx?productid=447&featured (http://newproductlaunch.kawasaki.com/Products/Photos.aspx?productid=447&featured)
Here come the new 2011 cows from Kawi for you lol! hahahaha
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AMA rules do affect Manufacturers, why else are they producing 450cc engines, such an odd displacement. I always hated odd displacement bikes because they usually suck, if they're not in the normal 125 -> 250 -> 500 numbers bikes were usually terrible. I know not all bikes are like that, but seemed to be the rule of thumb. A 100 cc engine? crap compared to a 125 or 80. A 175? a dog compared to a 125 or 250. I don't know, always feel dirty when i see odd displacement engines like they are just going to suck.
Anyhow, don't manufacturers make these strange 450 displacements instead of 500 because of AMA rules? Or did they all just get together and decide to make a displacement that was only known to be a disaster in the past (i.e. Honda CR450).
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you know i kinda stumbled onto a bit of useless facts this weekend after hangtown. In a part of the program they list all the names and numbers for every registered pro. in this years program there is two pages of pros. only 2. in 2003 there were upwards of ten pages with many numbers taken up. if this isnt an obvious major sign in the rising cost of this sport idk know what is
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you know i kinda stumbled onto a bit of useless facts this weekend after hangtown. In a part of the program they list all the names and numbers for every registered pro. in this years program there is two pages of pros. only 2. in 2003 there were upwards of ten pages with many numbers taken up. if this isnt an obvious major sign in the rising cost of this sport idk know what is
I'll say I don't agree with that necessarily, that may be only part of it. I feel a change coming, like NASCAR. Think about this. What other sport can a guy come off the street and say I have my pro license, I want to play/race with the big boys? Dallas Cowboys? Baseball? Golf? None. You have to be part of a team, or something of that nature. Luoungo has already done this, and others will follow. What good does it do for big sponsor teams, who pay big bucks, to have their rider sit out, because some John Doe comes out and qualifies and the team rider didn't? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree with the direction of everything. I'm just saying, I see it coming.
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you know i kinda stumbled onto a bit of useless facts this weekend after hangtown. In a part of the program they list all the names and numbers for every registered pro. in this years program there is two pages of pros. only 2. in 2003 there were upwards of ten pages with many numbers taken up. if this isnt an obvious major sign in the rising cost of this sport idk know what is
I'll say I don't agree with that necessarily, that may be only part of it. I feel a change coming, like NASCAR. Think about this. What other sport can a guy come off the street and say I have my pro license, I want to play/race with the big boys? Dallas Cowboys? Baseball? Golf? None. You have to be part of a team, or something of that nature. Luoungo has already done this, and others will follow. What good does it do for big sponsor teams, who pay big bucks, to have their rider sit out, because some John Doe comes out and qualifies and the team rider didn't? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree with the direction of everything. I'm just saying, I see it coming.
One leads to another, NASCAR is a good example, when they were actually "stock cars" it was actually affordable, it really began to evolve in the mid 80's and by the early 90's it was for all intensive purposes a "closed sport"... But the big difference between NASCAR and motocross is that for example the "Cup" cars are the top of a very tall stack of classses that stem from an affordable grass roots network of tracks and classes that feed the sport with pros. Motocross on the other hand is more of a "you do it or you don't sport" meaning that there isn't a huge difference between the pro classes and the grass roots racers (i.e. a KX250 is a KX250) unlike Nascar where the only thing Chevy about Dale Earnhardt's car is the headlight and taillight decals... In between the weekend warrior and "Cup" cars, there are street stocks, late models, sprints, ARCA, Indy, Sportsman, SCCA and the list goes on... In between the KX85 and the pro class is the 125... opps scratch that they don't make them anymore... The four strokes have hurt the sport, so as the economy and the AMA itself. I love motocross and all other forms of motorcycle racing, but lets be realists its not Nascar (don't get me wrong I pretty much gave up on nascar when they quit using "cars"), and if they try to mirror Nascar they will eventually run motocross out of existence. To save it theres no question as to what to do, either make the classes fair, or have a separate 2 stroke class, I don't care either way, but if they don't fix it soon, My son will be racing AHRMA on vintage bikes rather than AMA on current models
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you know i kinda stumbled onto a bit of useless facts this weekend after hangtown. In a part of the program they list all the names and numbers for every registered pro. in this years program there is two pages of pros. only 2. in 2003 there were upwards of ten pages with many numbers taken up. if this isnt an obvious major sign in the rising cost of this sport idk know what is
I think that you're on to something. And I agree, the price of building a national caliber 250/450f is keeping the other 8 pages of riders out.
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you know i kinda stumbled onto a bit of useless facts this weekend after hangtown. In a part of the program they list all the names and numbers for every registered pro. in this years program there is two pages of pros. only 2. in 2003 there were upwards of ten pages with many numbers taken up. if this isnt an obvious major sign in the rising cost of this sport idk know what is
I'll say I don't agree with that necessarily, that may be only part of it. I feel a change coming, like NASCAR. Think about this. What other sport can a guy come off the street and say I have my pro license, I want to play/race with the big boys? Dallas Cowboys? Baseball? Golf? None. You have to be part of a team, or something of that nature. Luoungo has already done this, and others will follow. What good does it do for big sponsor teams, who pay big bucks, to have their rider sit out, because some John Doe comes out and qualifies and the team rider didn't? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree with the direction of everything. I'm just saying, I see it coming.
Here's the solution :
DON'T LET THAT PRICK LLUONGO GET CONTROL OF AMA RACING!
I'm sure I've read it's his ambition to limit starting lines to 20 riders in the GPs. Make sure that this sort of crap does not happen, by speaking out and doing whatever you can to stop Lluongo and other of the sports controllers from bringing more bad rules to our sport (as I'm sure Miedo already does).
When I posted the link up on KTMtalk of DCs interview, I wrote my opinion on how I saw his comments re the 2t. These were that I really felt he was having a sarcastic go at the OEMs for blocking the equivalency rules. I also wrote that I feel he and MXSports / Racer Promotions are between a rock and a hard place, trying to progress MX, whilst keeping the wolves at bay - those Wolves being DMG - the Real owners of US MX, and Lluongo / Youthstream who would love to get control of the US Nationals. Does anyone recall interviews with DMGs Edmondson (sp? thankfully he seems to be gone for the time being) when he talked about moving outdoor MX into Nascar Super Speedways? And I would assume some of you would be aware of how DMG have royally stuffed up US Road Racing? This has made Honda, and the other OEMs very reactionary, and I can see why DC and co would be very much wary of pissing them off by trying to do the right thing and force through equivalency at the moment. And believe me when I say that I am ROYALLY pissed of with the continued 4t capacity advantage. At least he was able to get through the rule in GNCC that enables equivalency in the XC2 class - a start for Pro level rules , at least. So I see DC /MX Sports / Racer Promotions as a hell of a lot lesser of multiple evils, as much as I dislike some of their decisions / directions.
Whilst I don't agree with everything that DC and co. do, I think they do have a love for the sport, despite it undoubtedly being a earner for them. DMG and/ or Lluongo / Youthstream as I see it are just into it for the money/ business only. I don't give a damn about how pretty the pits look at the GPs, but I do care about athletes not getting prize money,being charged a fortune for the privilege of racing GPs, the limiting of opportunity for riders to get into the GPs and the bastardization of the sport by certain individuals / companies.
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Does anyone know if Sleeter had some problems? Injuries?
Nope, just didnt quite make it. Looked like a tough track for a 2-stroke anyway.
It was such a blast riding the 2-stroke yesterday and I was a little upset that I didn't qualify seeing I know I had a little more in me. I rode a little tight but the cool thing is everyone commented on how fast my bike looked. Well everyone it was a bone stock motor and it rips! I put some suspension and an FMF fatty pipe on it and took it the races. After the weekend I really want to push to the AMA and MX sports that we need to let the 2-stroke in the lites class. Privateer riders would be competitve with power on a small budget. I rode Searles race bike last week back to back with my 250 2-stroke and the 250f is still easier to go fast so let a privateer race the 250 2-stroke in the lites class atleast he will have a fighting chance to get a good start
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I know his problem, he wasn't on a MAICO.
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I know his problem, he wasn't on a MAICO.
:o :o :o ;D ;D ;D ;D
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No disrespect to Sleeter, He is a hell of a lot faster than me, But don't blame the two stroke for him not making the main. He has missed a few on the 450 as well.
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I just read that Sleeter was on a STOCK KTM 250! While the KTM's have more power stock than any other bike out there, when you are racing at this level you need to have a bike with more power.
This is the main reason that building a bike for the Nationals takes some time. It's not just bolt on a few goodies and go. There is modifying and testing, then modifying and testing, then modifying and testing..
So even if his bike has 50 horsepower, the "factory" machines are putting out close to 60 horsepower, that is too big a difference to overcome... stock 250 two-stroke versus 450F four-stroke is much closer..
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Hello John and Everyone,
Want to know something INTERESTING???
Once again no disrespect to Mike Sleeter, but ever since they went to press with the whole "Factory for a day" thing and all that, I smelled a RAT in the soup... It didn't seem logical to me that a company would choose this method to showcase the merits of several of their bikes side by side. Don't get me wrong, it could only bolster the 450SXF's credability if the privateer they chose went out there and got ANY sort of results at all..., BUT I was also thinking to myself that it would discredit the 250SX 2t quite a bit to hype this thing the way they did, and give the public the impression that a fast guy from KTM was going out there on the 2 stroke, and then have him pull a "Charlie brown kicks the football" moment and not even qualify, or perhaps run dismally in the main on TV.
We heard fair amount of hype about Factory For A Day "ONE LUCKY PRIVATEER IS GOING TO GET TO RACE HANGTOWN ON MIKE SLEETER'S FACTORY KTM450SXF... BECAUSE MIKE HAS CHOSEN TO RIDE A 250SX TWO STROKE AT HANGTOWN!..." What they aren't telling you is that Mike Sleeter HAS NEVER ONCE QUALIFIED IN THE MOTOCROSS CLASS... :o
http://www.amadirectlink.com/amrace/proracing/index.asp (http://www.amadirectlink.com/amrace/proracing/index.asp)
I checked all the AMA Motocross Results Archives going back to Hangtown 07 which is the first national where he did timed qualifying for the Motocross Class. So far, and I have been looking, I haven't been able to find an archive of the results for the 2009 year. I'm still trying though!
His results, while riding a KTM450SXF, were:
Hangtown 2007 - 42nd Place Qualifier KTM450SX
Washougal 2007 - 36th Place Qualifier KTM450SX
Thunder Valley 2007 - 49nth Place Qualifier KTM450SX
Glen Helen 2007 - 37th Place Qualifier KTM450SX
Thunder Valley 2008 - 48th Place Qualifier KTM450SX
Washougal 2008 - 42nd Place Qualifier KTM450SX
Public Relations is a complex game, with lots of ways to work the angles. I think KTM got exactly what they wanted out of this years Hangtown national. The black helicopters outside tell me that perhaps they got what they planned to get... Their new 350 4T came out shining brighter than Mike Alessi's "Jersey Shore" podium talk. One lucky unknown guy got his golden ticket to the chocolate factory onboard the 450 4T. And, a guy who had never, or almost never, qualified in the Motocross class went out there and did it like he always does, and "Took the fall" perfectly.
I'm about to head out to Pennsylvania for a Memorial day weekend of riding, and I should be loading up right now. But I wanted to write this out and post it immediately when I saw how Sleeter's bad results had dissapointed 2 stroke fans. I saw that a few people were scratching their heads while perhaps looking for their answers in the wrong places.
Don't blame the 2 stroke is right! Sleet actually improved on some of his past results and 46th wasn't far off his average. And, he's older now!
KTM is a brilliant marketing machine. They know where it pays to dump a lot of money into promotion... Mike Alessi costs more money than Snooki! They know how to generate positive press. "Unknown guy is FACTORY FOR A DAY!... Makes the main on borrowed 450SX-F!" And, they also know how to use marketing sleight of hand.
If you're like most people, you probably got the impression that Mike Sleeter had a "Factory" KTM 4 stroke that he was vacating for this 1 round so that he could ride the 2 stroke, and having a "Factory" bike, with your number on it, to lend out to one lucky privateer makes it appear that you are a factory guy, granted maybe a less well known factory guy. And being a "Factory" guy who doesn't qualify for the main leaves people with the impression that something had to be wrong, either with the rider, or the bike... Unless those people know that the guy in question hasn't qualified no matter what bike he was on, and of course that fact wasn't in any of the "Factory for a day!" fluff and hype.
It's not that KTM is working to kill their 2 strokes, they make great bikes everyone knows this and states it over and over. But I do believe they're smart enough to know that their 2 stroke lines will sell no matter what press they get. 2 Strokes are selling based on their merits these days. They have begun to regain popularity IN SPITE of more than a decade of steep bias in the rules, and the media. For a long time, the industry tried to stack the deck with mountains of pro 4 stroke hype, and an almost complete media exclusion of the 2 stroke. Now with the backlash to that approach starting to take root, and people like Brian Shuckhart (He qualifies, that's for sure!), John Nicolas, Mike Leavitt, Sedric Soubreyas, John Dowd (MB250 win at 338!), James Stewart (When he's riding, not talking), and Jake Weimer actually doing things that reflect positively on the 2 stroke, it appears that the "Mums the word when it comes to the 2 strokes" approach isn't working as well as it once did. I thought pretty soon some people in the industry would probably start to take a more active approach to downplaying the 2 stroke.
I think that's exactly what KTM did by publicizing Mike Sleeter's hangtown trial on the 250SX. What else could your intentions be when you put a guy who hasn't ever qualified out there on the 2 stroke and give this attempt more press than all of his other national rounds combined have gotten him?....
It smells fishy...
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Hey Miedoso
Your mate TFS was pictured at Glen Helen. It mentioned on Vital MX that it was good to see him out of retirement and at the races. It looked like he was out there taking photos of the GP. They also mentioned that they didnt get a chance to speak to him.