Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: JohnN on May 17, 2010, 07:32:18 AM
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Yesterday the bike was assembled using the Kayaba Factory suspension....
Mike tested it briefly late in the day. There is a plushness and resistance to bottoming that is not evident in other suspension.
Some photos have been posted here;
http://projecttwo50.com/ (http://projecttwo50.com/)
This also marks the first test of the MicroBlue bearings and coatings in the engine. Initial feedback is that we are on the verge of something huge! Still working on jetting and getting the bike set up properly.
We may not be able to get the bike up to the high standards that we have set for ourselves in terms of having all the latest, greatest components, we do feel the the power, handling and suspension will be up to the task of competition at the Pro level.
Today we'll be testing different pipe/silencer combinations. Although we are very excited about the hand built cone pipe being developed by 2T Institute. He also is working on a cylinder/head combination that should be out-of-this-world!
In addition there are still a few interesting tricks and important information that has the potential to turn the two-stroke into the machine of choice for all riders/racers. This will be revealed soon.
This is getting very interesting.
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That suspension is Sexy!!
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Wow. You are making an amazing machine. I wish you the best of luck in the races!
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That suspension is Sexy!!
You've got to talk to Mike Leavitt about it... super amazing stuff!
Thanks DangisMX.
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That suspension is Sexy!!
Aint that the truth!! :-*
Be good to see how the Micro blue bearings go too, they sound pretty hi tech.
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John now that project two 50 is getting close to race shape.... I was just curious about the $$$$. (I'm sorry I'm an accountant, its the way I think) I'm was wondering with the $$$ invested how that would compare to a privateer running a thumper. Lets assume both get the suspension work done, and other external trick items, levers, wheels, tires, etc. so let call that even. Using your best guesstimate... what is the difference in the $$$ invested getting a two stroke engine set up vs a thumper. I believe the gap would spread as the season wears on, as rebuilds and general maintenaince for you will be a lot less expensive, then those on the thumper. But I was more curious as to how comparable (apples to apples) do you think the set up costs of getting each bike (engine only) race ready are?
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John now that project two 50 is getting close to race shape.... I was just curious about the $$$$. (I'm sorry I'm an accountant, its the way I think) I'm was wondering with the $$$ invested how that would compare to a privateer running a thumper. Lets assume both get the suspension work done, and other external trick items, levers, wheels, tires, etc. so let call that even. Using your best guesstimate... what is the difference in the $$$ invested getting a two stroke engine set up vs a thumper. I believe the gap would spread as the season wears on, as rebuilds and general maintenaince for you will be a lot less expensive, then those on the thumper. But I was more curious as to how comparable (apples to apples) do you think the set up costs of getting each bike (engine only) race ready are?
This is a great way to look at the entire project!
But there are a couple of caveats to be aware of, first we do not have an unlimited budget. This forces us to look very closely at our return on investment and where best to apply our resources with our race bike.
To start, our base machine is a used race bike Mike raced & competed on last year. While it's not beat up, it does have some riding/racing time on it.
You make an excellent point that both the 2 and 4 have to start with the same components including the frame, suspension, wheels, tires, brakes, etc. I would also add the clutch. All the factory teams and privateers have top of the line equipment in all these areas.
Let's try to break this down in a way that would make sense using engine internals only. Again, we have not been able to apply everything that could be done, due to the budget...
All these prices are approximate and for example only.
MicroBlue Racing Ceramic Bearing kit (engine only) $700.
Wossner Piston Kit - $127.95
Porting/center case/ head work - $450.
Exhaust pipe and Silencer - $400.
Transmission Polishing/Coating - $375.
Boyesen SuperCooler - $179.95
Rad Valve - $179.95
Gaskets, Seals, Misc. $250.00
Total Investment - $2,662.85
This does not include carb work ($175.00), ignition ($500.00) or other assorted "bling" ($$$$ ????) that we would love to add.
Obviously with quite a few additional zeros added to the budget, we could make the bike a virtual factory machine... our late start in the process resulted in many items not being included on our race machine.
While our machine may not be up to "factory" team standards, we feel that the performance mods we have applied, will be enough that the factory guys will notice who we are and what we are doing.
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The caveat for me is to think that if you started with a ??seasoned? thumper, you would have done everything on your list and more. If you were to race a used thumper, I??m sure you would have replaced the following: (my quick list)
Piston rings, gaskets (additional $100)
Valves, including seals, springs, and labor to have seats cut. ($1,250)
Cam shaft as you now need a hotter cam, cam sprockets and timing chain ($300)
Exhaust pipe and header because it??s not LOUD enough (additional $750)
This quick list (and I think some of my cost estimate are conservative, add an additional $2,400 to the price tag. almost doubling your investment. All this to get to the same point where project two 50 currently sits. This does not account for maintenance required throughout the season. I would think the valves would not last an entire racing season and would need to be repaired / replaced at least once, as would the piston and rings. So add and additional $1,350 above the cost of racing the smoker. These costs assume nothing catastrophic occurred? :o
I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can add? The cost of racing a thumper is killing the privateer. I hope Project two 50 turns more than a few heads?
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John, looking at your engine breakdown, I would say you are spending
your funds wisely and on the right parts and services.
The results and reliabilty will come from testing and development, but it
looks like a solid start.
Mike's got to be loving the Kayaba "works" pieces compared to the stockers,
night and day comes to mind.
dogger
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Thanks guys....
I just got a call from Mike, this afternoon he was testing pipe/silencer combination's, he started off using an HGS Torque Pipe & HGS silencer. Said that the bike signed off way too early for him... so they switch to the HGS Rev pipe which worked much better.
When we first built the bike, we started our testing using a Phat head with the higher compression insert. This made the bike run like a dog! Once we switched out to the normal compression ratio... the bike turned into a jet! Then he started on pipe combos...
Next up was the HGS Rev pipe with the FMF silencer, which was an additional improvement. Then he tried the FMF Fatty pipe...
In his words... "it was like 100 times faster! My pants kept falling down!"
Just so you know we have some other stuff done to the engine and we are running much leaner gas/oil ratios than any one of you would be comfortable with... and we are going even leaner!! The interesting thing is that we are still running rich with a 190 main jet!
I know what you might be thinking, are those guys crazy running such lean ratios? Well yes we are crazy, thanks for asking.. ;D ;D The one thing to keep in mind is, in order to compete with the factory machines, we must think outside the box and try things that they may never have thought of or been willing to attempt! 8) :o
For obvious reasons we can not reveal all of the work done to the engine....
Now we have a new problem, the bike is so fast that it over powers the brakes! Now for the casual rider/racer, this may not be a concern, but for a Pro level racer it's huge... every second that you can hold the throttle open longer decreases your lap times. Low lap times are the by-product of acceleration and braking...
We currently have a 270mm front brake rotor, although we need stronger pads for the front and something stronger for the rear.. also looking int a stepped seat so that Mike does not fall off the back of the bike...
Later this week we head to the dyno to get all of our base line settings.... maybe I'll bring my video camera. :o :o
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Over cooking the brakes is a good sign, that just means Mike's going much faster(switch to a Brembo caliper and a Braking Disc). After the brakes are sorted and the bike feels like it could do with more HP congratulations you have completed the first lap of the 'developement cycle' ;D Then get ready for another round ,and another etc etc.
Those forks and shock look very nice looks like DLC coating on the tubes to.
I'll get the spark plug off to Todd asap to. Still trying to get a hold of a YZ to mock the pipe up on.
Keep up the good work
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WOW that suspension is looking sweet!Glad to hear that everything is coming together nicely and that Mike is loving it.Go get em Mike!Tear it up on the 2t! ;D
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awesome bike is off the chain hopefully mike can pull together some wins!!!
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Some serious testing today!! This was the first time I've seen the bike running since it's been put back together... it does not sound like a 250 two-stroke...
A few friends took it for a spin on a grassy field... one vet racer with years of A racing experience said it was the fastest 250 mx bike he ever rode! Another young guy who normally races an RM250 two-stroke, accelerated hard on the grass and let out a huge WHOOOOO HOOOO.
Both of them said it was hard to keep the front wheel on the ground!
At this point we feel that we are only 80% of the way there on the bike. There is more power lurking inside that beast.
We shot some video today, hopefully in a day or two it will be ready to post...
Sunday is another testing day on a huge outdoor style track. Lap times in the 2minute 30 second range.
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John,sounds like things are going great!I need to take that bad boy for a rip!The only problem is that the suspension is gonna be a little stiff for this mere mortal. :D
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I hope you can get a helmet cam for when he competes on the bike - it will make each race easy to follow :D
also you said it doesnt sound like a 2 stroke - what does it sound like?! lol
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Offroader, we miss you!
It would have been great for you to take a spin on the bike... as for the suspension, it's not quite as stiff as you would think.
Mike was hitting bumps that under normal conditions would have thrown the bike into a sideways swap... the suspension bounced straight! It was amazing! The awesomeness of the suspension is in it's ability to soak up the small stuff like it's not there all the way through absorbing impacts that you would think it would bottom out harshly on.
KXwestYZ I didn't say that it didn't sound like a two-stroke, I said it didn't sound like a 250 two-stroke... it sounds big, bad and mean!
Oh yeah, the smell is heavenly!! We are using Amsoil... I refuse to tell the ratio we are using.. you'll think we're crazy or something!
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John,I miss you guys also.I can't wait to see Mikes speed on this set up.I might be back soon will keep you guys posted.
Gotta love that oil ratio! :P
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Offroader, we miss you!
It would have been great for you to take a spin on the bike... as for the suspension, it's not quite as stiff as you would think.
Mike was hitting bumps that under normal conditions would have thrown the bike into a sideways swap... the suspension bounced straight! It was amazing! The awesomeness of the suspension is in it's ability to soak up the small stuff like it's not there all the way through absorbing impacts that you would think it would bottom out harshly on.
KXwestYZ I didn't say that it didn't sound like a two-stroke, I said it didn't sound like a 250 two-stroke... it sounds big, bad and mean!
Oh yeah, the smell is heavenly!! We are using Amsoil... I refuse to tell the ratio we are using.. you'll think we're crazy or something!
Haha i'm guessing 20/1 that wouldn't be crazy at all
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While we are guessing, I am gonna say - 60:1. Due to the fact that the new MICRO BLUE bearings you are using are so good. This would also allow leaner jets which you also mentioned as you essentially have more fuel.
:D
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While we are guessing, I am gonna say - 60:1. Due to the fact that the new MICRO BLUE bearings you are using are so good. This would also allow leaner jets which you also mentioned as you essentially have more fuel.
:D
Actually we had to go much richer on the jets.... and the bike is still running a bit rich!
No one has guessed the ratio yet. :P
Hey Offroader, give me a call later. Are you coming home soon? We are headed down to PA on Tuesday to dyno the bike and then stopping at Boyesen for the "nickel" tour!
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80:1 or 100:1.
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While we are guessing, I am gonna say - 60:1. Due to the fact that the new MICRO BLUE bearings you are using are so good. This would also allow leaner jets which you also mentioned as you essentially have more fuel.
:D
Actually we had to go much richer on the jets.... and the bike is still running a bit rich!
No one has guessed the ratio yet. :P
Hey Offroader, give me a call later. Are you coming home soon? We are headed down to PA on Tuesday to dyno the bike and then stopping at Boyesen for the "nickel" tour!
I could tell them, but then have to shoot them all. LOL. Top Secret. Ok, yeah John told me.
Anyways, Can't wait for the dyno results. Can't wait til you head to Dallas.
John not understanding the we are rich so we can go richer comment??? If you are rich you go leaner,if you are lean you go richer to get a perfect air/fuel mixture.
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75:1
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John not understanding the we are rich so we can go richer comment??? If you are rich you go leaner,if you are lean you go richer to get a perfect air/fuel mixture.
Huh???
What I meant to say is that we are currently at a richer main jet than stock. That is with the current mix ratio, but we are going leaner on the mixture... heading into uncharted territory. While heading in this direction it's best if we stay just a little "fat" until we have the readings we need to move forward.
That's why I said that we were about 80% there.
Hopefully that's as clear as mud! LOL
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John,unfortunately not that soon. :( Maybe on the 5th.Waiting to see what happens.Might be moved to another location.I will give you a call tonight.
Miedos you wouldn't have to shoot them all if you gave out the ratio. :D