Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: JohnN on May 12, 2010, 11:12:40 AM
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Hi Guys,
It was great fun speaking with Matt Cuddy. He is a regular down to earth motorcycle guy, just like the rest of us!
Enjoy!
http://articles.superhunkyforum.com/4/132 (http://articles.superhunkyforum.com/4/132)
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Oh, so THAT'S what John looks like.
Anyway, I have to say that 55+ horsepower out of a 250 is properly impressive. That's an incredible number for anything of that size. Now I want to find this porting software just to see how it works and what's possible. I'd be scared to do anything big to one of my bikes, but it'd be cool regardless. Besides, I'm going to be in college next year learning engineering, and it'd be cool to come out at the en of my education with a two-stroke from Hell designed in the computer.
Are we eventually going to be able to learn these "secret" modifications on the bike, or is that going to always be an exclusive Project Two 50 thing? Sounds like something that might add some horsepower into TSRII (Two Stroke Revolution II).
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Cool read. There were a few facts though that sounded a little far fetched. A couple grand for a 4 stroke top end?
I hope to see you guys at Unadilla and Steel City
Best of luck
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Excellent interview John I"m glad you reconize us in Wisconsin for being more than just cheese heads. I participated at Eagle River in the past with sleds, and when they fire up some of the tripples (2-strokes) the sonic pulse will change your heart rhythm. What car are you in?
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Cool interview, thanks for posting it.
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Cool read. There were a few facts though that sounded a little far fetched. A couple grand for a 4 stroke top end?
I hope to see you guys at Unadilla and Steel City
Best of luck
This is the biggest bone of contention on almost every forum, the cost of a top end on a four-stroke. Really it depends on how hard you ride and what work you have done to your machine.
When I speak about it I'm talking about the guys that race at the A level or above. There are really no stock machines at that level. They are built for speed and extremely fragile because of it. Somewhere on You Tube there was a video of a BMW 4-stroke top end in which you could see the valve float pretty easily (it was taken down)
Put a very fast racer on one of those machines and he will wear the engine at a much higher rate than a trail rider...
I'm positive you can find examples of MX four-strokes that have many years of riding on them that still run just fine, but my illusion is that these machines were trail ridden and not subjected to the stresses that a pro puts a racing four stroke through.
As for the cost... just visit Pro Circuit with an adding machine. The parts prices add up pretty quickly! You could easily go more than two grand, without any head work, just the valves, cams, keepers, piston, rings and gaskets should have you over that number....
Please come over and introduce yourself at the the races!
Thanks!
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Congratulations, on the article. I can't wait to see Project Two 50 at Steel City. I will definitely stop by to say hello, and offer the 4 strokers my condolences
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Hey John,
Gotta say, AWESOME interview. Inspirational actually, makes me wanna go carve out some motos on MY YZ250. Extremely excited about the AMA nationals now, even though I am on the other side of the earth. Reading about the recent deveolpments in porting theories really sparked my interest, and will be looking much further into this, but any info that goes up onto the main website would be much appreciated and read with great interest.
Keep up the great work guys, you are making a huge difference.
Oh and by the way, Best of luck in the Nationals. I know that all that hard work will pay off !!!!!!!!!
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Awesome article. I didnt know you guys plan to have a couple more two stroke bikes racing next year, very cool.
I am really looking forward to Wortham. The sound and smell of a two stroke in the air, kicking some butt.
I saw that some of the sponsors are some of the gear I use. I use Oneal pants and jersey and Scott goggles already, I might just have to drop them a line and let them know I appreciate their support for project two50. And once I can get another bike, I may have to get some FMF pipes. The Oneal gear looks great. Being a honda fan for so many years, I HAD a hard time cheering for a yamaha, but NOT anymore. I know, I know my brand has screwed motorcross and I feel sorry for them, their handicap'd, lol :P
Rock-on project two50 ! ! !
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That was an awesome interveiw John!And in respones to KTMguy's post I find it hard to beleive that he finds it far fetched to put a couple grand into a 4-chokes top end?? :o A 4-choke built & designed to race MX or SX very easily WILL swallow up a couple $grand$ + and one that is highly built for Class A and above racing can swallow even alot more $$GREEN$$ than a few grand!
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So you guys will be at Freestone?i'll be sure to stop by and say hey......great interview ;D
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Great interview, I love the new Super Hunky website - Matt's input is fantastic!! All this great two stroke news lately has gotten me off my butt - I raced my first MX in two years last weekend. Extremely rusty, but had an epic battle for 6th place in the 40+ C class with another guy on a 2000 CR250, he got the best of me and my YZ at the end though. Man, I didn't realize how much I missed it!!
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great interview.
when i get my new bike i am gonna have to get my
motor done by who ever did Team TWO50's motors.
i hope you guys kick some 4choke butts
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This is a great interview, was really heartened by it. To be honest, although I was all for the 250 project, I really didn't see it as having much of a chance in competing against the factory 450 thumpers due to the huge power disparity. Too much of one, for the nimbleness and better handling of the lighter 250 to overcome, especially on tracks deliberately designed to favor those 4stroke piles of fecal material.
These days, usually, when one sees engine mods or hop ups being done on 2stroke motors in magazines, it's more than likely to be to smooth out and broaden the powerband. Actual increases in power are usually minute, and sometimes they even lose a bit in max hp. I guess due to that, I had it in mind that such would be the approach of Project 250, and against the big factory thumpers, that's a recipe for defeat. You need the power to match the thumpers at least, in acceleration, and a rider who can handle it. The KTM 150SX, for instance, can actually out accelerate the 250 thumpers, even if only by a hair. I do remember reading that one of RC's factory 250s a few years back was producing about 56 hp, but the trend seemed to be moving away from that. KTM's SX 250 is detuned somewhat from the 2003 (I believe) model which scared the sissy-boy testers (boo hoo). Sheesh! They still have the most powerful stock 250, but it used to be even hotter. Anyhow, I let out a whoop when I saw the approach Project 250 is taking with their bike and that they are not pulling any punches in the power department. They're not satisfied with the pantywaist approach of merely a "broader, smoother" powerband. BRAVO!!!! Not against a broad and smooth powerband in a 2stroke, but if it's at the expense of power, forget it. Better to have the power, and a rider who knows how to put it to use. Seems Project 250 indeed has that in spades. Great job, guys!
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These days, usually, when one sees engine mods or hop ups being done on 2stroke motors in magazines, it's more than likely to be to smooth out and broaden the powerband. Actual increases in power are usually minute, and sometimes they even lose a bit in max hp. I guess due to that, I had it in mind that such would be the approach of Project 250, and against the big factory thumpers, that's a recipe for defeat. You need the power to match the thumpers at least, in acceleration, and a rider who can handle it. The KTM 150SX, for instance, can actually out accelerate the 250 thumpers, even if only by a hair. I do remember reading that one of RC's factory 250s a few years back was producing about 56 hp, but the trend seemed to be moving away from that. KTM's SX 250 is detuned somewhat from the 2003 (I believe) model which scared the sissy-boy testers (boo hoo). Sheesh! They still have the most powerful stock 250, but it used to be even hotter. Anyhow, I let out a whoop when I saw the approach Project 250 is taking with their bike and that they are not pulling any punches in the power department. They're not satisfied with the pantywaist approach of merely a "broader, smoother" powerband. BRAVO!!!! Not against a broad and smooth powerband in a 2stroke, but if it's at the expense of power, forget it. Better to have the power, and a rider who knows how to put it to use. Seems Project 250 indeed has that in spades. Great job, guys!
While we want our machine to produce the most horsepower possible, there is a balance between acceleration and just spinning your rear wheel.
Just so you know a 250cc two-stroke motor can produce upwards of 70 horsepower. This is what they use in karts and other applications. That is very near the upper limits of the 250cc two-stroke. And would be impracticable for motocross for many reasons, the largest being that the exhaust pipe would need to be so different that you could not possibly fit it on the bike
Our challenge is to produce as much as possible without making the machine impossible to ride. We are working on it!!
Thanks for all the kudos!!
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amazing interview
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This is a great interview, was really heartened by it. To be honest, although I was all for the 250 project, I really didn't see it as having much of a chance in competing against the factory 450 thumpers due to the huge power disparity. Too much of one, for the nimbleness and better handling of the lighter 250 to overcome, especially on tracks deliberately designed to favor those 4stroke piles of fecal material.
These days, usually, when one sees engine mods or hop ups being done on 2stroke motors in magazines, it's more than likely to be to smooth out and broaden the powerband. Actual increases in power are usually minute, and sometimes they even lose a bit in max hp. I guess due to that, I had it in mind that such would be the approach of Project 250, and against the big factory thumpers, that's a recipe for defeat. You need the power to match the thumpers at least, in acceleration, and a rider who can handle it. The KTM 150SX, for instance, can actually out accelerate the 250 thumpers, even if only by a hair. I do remember reading that one of RC's factory 250s a few years back was producing about 56 hp, but the trend seemed to be moving away from that. KTM's SX 250 is detuned somewhat from the 2003 (I believe) model which scared the sissy-boy testers (boo hoo). Sheesh! They still have the most powerful stock 250, but it used to be even hotter. Anyhow, I let out a whoop when I saw the approach Project 250 is taking with their bike and that they are not pulling any punches in the power department. They're not satisfied with the pantywaist approach of merely a "broader, smoother" powerband. BRAVO!!!! Not against a broad and smooth powerband in a 2stroke, but if it's at the expense of power, forget it. Better to have the power, and a rider who knows how to put it to use. Seems Project 250 indeed has that in spades. Great job, guys!
I agree with you 100% im sick of people trying to make 2 strokes into a 'broader more smooth' powerband just to make them more like the 4 stroke - the whole fun of 2 strokes is the intense powerband delivery for me
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Everyone tries to make the two-stroke more broad and the four-strokes more peaky. You know what that means?
Everyone wants their motor to act like a Maico! Oh yeah, I went there.
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Everyone tries to make the two-stroke more broad and the four-strokes more peaky. You know what that means?
Everyone wants their motor to act like a Maico! Oh yeah, I went there.
me and turquine must be odd ones out then :)
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If you look at the power to weight ratios of a 450 4s and a 250 2s you'll find that they are similar. The difference is tractability, the 450 4s is "finding traction", and that is why it is winning. Souping up a 250 2s even more isn't going to do any good if it all goes up in wheelspin. The objective is to win and 250 2s's need technology that will make them more tractable and able to find traction. Proof of this is that 35hp 4s are posting the fastest laptimes on some tracks.
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If you look at the power to weight ratios of a 450 4s and a 250 2s you'll find that they are similar. The difference is tractability, the 450 4s is "finding traction", and that is why it is winning. Souping up a 250 2s even more isn't going to do any good if it all goes up in wheelspin. The objective is to win and 250 2s's need technology that will make them more tractable and able to find traction. Proof of this is that 35hp 4s are posting the fastest laptimes on some tracks.
I understand what your saying - if your having to run a 2 stroke 250 against a 450 4 stroke in the USA then you may have to tune it differently to stand a chance, but here in the UK we have lots of 2 stroke only series and also the red bull pro national series where its equal displacement so 250 2 strokes are running against 250 4 strokes and we dont need to 'smooth out the power' in order to be competitive - we can enjoy the thrills of a peaky 2 stroke and nail the 4 strokes no matter what and not have to compromise the fun factor.. :P in the open class we can run 500cc 2 strokes against the 450 4 bangers to
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So in the UK it's how it used to be here ::) Does Red Bell have a series like that here in the US?
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Your right JETZcorp!It does seem like everybody is looking for that old school MAICO type 2-stroke power!Thats right I SAID IT! OLD SCHOOL MAICO POWER RULES!!! >:D
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John, I donā??t think you and I are in disagreement here, I feel your power approach is the right one from what I read youā??re trying to do with Project 250. John and Sachs, I do understand, that there is a point where you must have the right kind of power delivery.
Many of us are old enough to remember the early Suzuki TM 400s, for instance. They didnā??t lack for power, that was for sure. Problem is, the transition from almost nothing to full power was instantaneous, and would often come out from under you or flip over completely. I can give another anecdote that I personally experienced in the ā??70s. I had an old Kawasaki Green Streak 250 which Iā??d put the Bighorn 350 head and barrel and piston on. That bike had good power everywhere (although it was a tank otherwise). Unfortunately, my buddy bought a new (at that time) ā??76 Yamaha TT 500 thumper and he just blew me away in any situation. Well, I went out and bought a ā??74 Yamaha SC 500 2stroke. Talk about all or nothing! This bike had lots of power on top, but no low-end and very little mid-range. When it came on though, it was like the big downhill section on a fast roller coaster. Gut-grabbing acceleration, at least it felt that way. The bike didnā??t handle well and had terrible suspension, but ah, I had power.
So, I race the TT with it. I find the TT jumping way out in front instantly before I can really hook up and get going. By the time Iā??m really moving out, I gotta slow down to make the turn which the TT has already made. Alright, I tell him, letā??s get on pavement. Traction is no longer a problem, but me getting a good start without looping the bike is! Heā??d again get way ahead, but this time, Iā??d catch and pass him, but only as Iā??d just hit 4th gear. The SC 500 was only a 4 speed bike to begin with. I could see then, that even though the SC 500 had much more top-end power than the TT500, the TT was superior in all but the longest straights because it put itā??s power to the ground immediately, and uncontrollably.
I later got a 1982 Yamaha IT 465 enduro. This bike had as much top end power if not more than, the SC 500. It didnā??t feel like it was nearly as fast, but it was actually much quicker in standing starts or any kind or a roll-on, and it had a super smooth, and broad powerband. Similar to the much vaunted. Maico 490, just not as much of it. It would out accelerate the SC in any circumstance, and effortlessly. It could lug like the TT 500, and accelerate like a bat out of hell instantly, and it got great traction to boot. Iā??m relating this just to show I am not unaware of the need for controllable, ā??usableā? powerbands, and am in no way advocating a powerband on a 250 that is as extreme as something like the old Yamaha SC 500 or Suzuki TM 400.
Okay, the traction issue. Again, Iā??m aware of that one as well. I had another friend who had a 1984 Honda CR500. This bike had gobs of power and it was to some, explosive. Controllable though, for the most part. With stock gearing, and tire, however, I could usually stay right with him and sometimes even pull him through the gears on my IT 465, in the dirt, (on pavement, forget it, no contest). How was that, seeing he had at least 8 hp on me according to the Webco dynos of the day? Traction! This fact was further demonstrated when we took the bikes out to a particularly nasty local hill. Pure sand, very long and steep, but at the top, you had to be careful because there were lava rocks jutting out to either side, and the trail narrowed considerably. The TT500 for instance would typcally hit it in 4th, but end up in 2nd and digging itself stuck well before getting anywhere near the top. My friend on the '84 R500, would hit it in third, get up near the top and then kept going sideways into the lava and would have to cut the throttle or risk an ambulance ride. He was spinning out so bad by then, that he was probably not going to make it even if heā??d been able to stay on course. I suggested he try it on my IT. Third gear all the way, no trouble. The IT had a 17 inch rim though and a tire with a much better footprint. Had he had the same, Iā??ve little doubt heā??d have made it easily, but the dinky motocross knobby he had on there simply held him back. Anyhow, my buddy raised the gearing and also got a huge Cheng-Shin rear knobby with really wide center knobs. He then was able to breeze up that hill like it was almost nothing. The difference was like night and day! Not only that, on some of the same dirt stretches where before the change, I could sometimes pull him through the gears, he just left me in his roost. He did not seek to de-tune his bike, or go for a broader, smoother powerband. The main reason things changed was the tire, pure and simple. A larger tire, with much better knobs. Also upping the gearing seemed to help him put the power to use a bit better, but reverting to stock gearing, he still was pulling me through the gears with that tire.
I know, that wasnā??t motocross, but very similar principles are at work here. 4strokes do have a big advantage most of the time in putting their power to the ground, but I do not believe it is by any means, insurmountable. Experimenting with bigger tires, different gearing and flywheels I believe, if done correctly, could enable us to use much more powerful 2stroke engines effectively on just about any type of track. If people simply refuse to consider this as an option because itā??s not being employed by others, then you are effectively throwing the 2strokeā??s biggest advantage out the window. That advantage is our superior power. We have more muscle than they do, period. We are simply going to have to find ways of putting it to the ground, and I for one, believe itā??s very possible, just think outside the box. Try being unorthodox, until you get the right formula. Itā??s there, just gotta find it.
Iā??d also like to point out that on this site, in at least a couple of places, a link to the 2003 Dallas Supercross heat races has been posted. That was just the first part of a three part video series. The next two parts were the main race. Chad Reed and Ricky Carmichael were blowing everyone else away on factory 2stroke 250s. In the main, it was a showdown between them alone, nobody else was close on the thumpers. I donā??t know the hp figures on Reedā??s Yamaha, but Iā??d read that Carmichaelā??s Honda was putting out around 56 hp. Reed won though, and it appeared he had similar power when theyā??d get side-by side on the straights. Both riders had no trouble keeping up with the 450 thumpers on straights at first, and both easily pulled away from the rest of the pack shortly after the start anyhow. True, youā??re talking about riders who probably would have done the same had they been on 450s, but my point is simply that such big power can be used effectively by 2strokes by riders who know what they are doing.
Iā??m not advocating an all or nothing, ā??1975 Honda CR125 powerband here, by any means. In fact, by all means, get as broad and smooth of a powerband as you can, just donā??t shoot yourself in the foot in doing that. (and no, John, I don't think Project 250 is going about it the wrong way). Owning both the IT and SC Yamahas taught me well, that this is important, but not if it means sacrificing power to the 450s who will still get better traction anyhow PLUS out-accelerate you even when traction is good, to boot.
My recipe would be to get a 250 to the point to where if you lined it up side by side against the quickest of the 450 4strokes, on pavement, (probably the KX), that you would always pull it through the gears. Iā??m sure that is not that hard to do, I believe Carmichaelā??s bike in the above mentioned video would likely be able to do that, if not, that bike's not far from that point. From there, you start looking for was to get similar results in the dirt, but not by sacrificing that power advantage, but rather utilizing other methods to help you maintain it in the dirt. You may not get the holeshot every time, but you will at least be in the running and from there, can start reeling in the 450 porkers. Seems to me, they did just that in the Dallas Supercross event in 2003. Itā??s still possible. Hereā??s the links to that, so folks here can watch them when they have time. The 250s donā??t always get the holeshot, but are holding their own, just fine, and anyhow, eventually get way ahead. Traction and acceleration are not an issue and these 250s have more max power than most of the thumpers if not all of them. Certainly more than any of them put out stock these days.
2003 Dallas Supercross - Part 1 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s32Fwu5xkaQ&feature=player_embedded#)
2003 Dallas Supercross - Part 2 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV5f7mY36sc&feature=related#)
2003 Dallas Supercross - Part 3 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN4jh0wY2a8&feature=related#)
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Oops, sorry, in that last post, seems my links didn't come out. I will try again here. --->
2003 Dallas Supercross - Part 1 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s32Fwu5xkaQ&feature=player_embedded#)
2003 Dallas Supercross - Part 2 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV5f7mY36sc&feature=related#)
2003 Dallas Supercross - Part 3 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN4jh0wY2a8&feature=related#)
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The IT had a 17 inch rim though and a tire with a much better footprint.
I'm a fan of the 17-inch rims. It was one of the things Husky insisted on putting on all their bikes, and the magazines couldn't seem to understand why. It was something different, so they always said it needed to be changed, though I never read one explaining their reason for wanting the 17 gone. The logic behind it was that you could have the smaller rim, but the tire diameter would be the same, giving you a ton of side-wall that would flatten a bit and give you a massive area for grip, as well as absorbing some shocks to help the suspension. Huskies were known for their tremendous grip and world-beating suspension.
Your story about the tires is a really interesting one. I knew the tires made a pretty big difference, but I didn't realize it would be so night-and-day on a bike that makes big-time power like a 500 or one of those super-tuned 250s. That reminds me, it's interesting to note that a 250 two-stroke that's running 50hp is making TWICE the power-per-liter of the supercharged Corvette ZR-1, and about half-again the power-per-liter of a Hayabusa, by my calculations.
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You got it, JETZ. The knob pattern on the IT's 17 inch IRC tire wasn't that spectacular, but like you said, there was more tire rubber surface on the ground than on similar 18 inch rims of the time. Seems MX bikes all have 19 inch rear wheels now. I don't care much for that. Want better traction, start with a better tire rather than cutting back on hp when you're already forced to give up so much displacement to begin with.
Looks like I goofed. When I posted my note and added the three links, I just hit post without previewing. I then went back and checked immediately to see how it came out and the links were not there. So I posted them again only to find that they had been there in the previous post after all. I guess something is wrong with my PC because it didn't show when I went back and checked right after posting the first one. Should have used the preview I guess.
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The higher unsprung weight of a 17" tire has a considerable effect on accelleration and suspension action.
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I don't dispute that point, Sachs. I know traction is a serious factor with 2strokes. I merely contend that the compromise here is far less of a compromise than going with a skinny tire, and sacrificing power to avoid wheelspin. I just feel like the negative aspects of a wider tire with much wider center knobs can be more easily countered than giving away horsepower where you are already outgunned due to the tremendous displacement disadvantage. I know for a fact that the tire my friend switched to on that CR 500 increased his acceleration in the dirt, it did not decrease it. He didn't have a 17 inch tire but an 18, nevertheless it was notably wider than the stock tire it came with and had much bigger and wider center knobs. Didn't seem to adversely affect the handling in corners either.
Anyhow, I'm not claiming this is the solution, or the only solution, I just firmly believe that you can have a lot more power and find ways to put it to the ground much more effectively than has been done in the past. If we were talking about 250 2strokes against 250 4strokes, backing off a bit on power and going for more of an enduro powerband might very well be ideal. You'll still be out-gunning the thumpers by a mile. With a 250 against a factory prepped and hopped-up 450 4stroke, I just don't see that we would have that luxury.
Let me also point out a quote from Matt Cuddy in his interview with Project 250. ->
Me: You know I rode an ā??87 CR500 for the past twenty years, it was ported, FMF pipe, jetted spot on, and all my riding buddies went over to the dark side and bought KTM four strokes. Against an EXC525 it was no contest, it was like they were standing still."
Alright, here we have Matt's CR500, already very potent to begin with, which was ported for even more power, yet, he was blowing away 4strokes on a dirt surface! How could this be, if, there isn't any way to get enough traction when you have so much power on a 2stroke? I don't believe Mr. Cuddy is making this up, but then, one would think he must be, if 2strokes can't get their power to the ground if they have above 60 hp.
To me, that's exactly what the Honda folks and the magazines promoting 4strokes would have us believe, and I simply do not believe it or accept that limitation. If they are right, Mr. Cuddy and many like him are simply making up stories because in the dirt, they would only be spinning out against 4strokes which were hooking up, and thus, couldn't win. No sir, I believe Mr. Cuddy was telling the truth. Maybe not, but that's my opinion. Somehow, with a tremendously powerful 2stroke, far more powerful than any 250 2stroke, he managed to get enough power to the ground to easily blow away the big 4strokes which get such great traction.
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A similar story is the one of the 430 Husky and YZ426F (I've told this one before.) Long story short, the Yamaha couldn't touch the '81 open-classer on the straights, and then later in the day the '86 Maico 500 added corners to the list of things the YZF was sup-par at. This was on unmaintained dirt roads which, while not a motocross track, certainly don't react kindly to light-switch power delivery. The YZF rider came back from that ride with ruined Excel rims, a shattered pride, and a newfound belief in Sasquatch. Last I heard, the 426 had its transmission looking more like fruit loops than anything else.
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If you look at the power to weight ratios of a 450 4s and a 250 2s you'll find that they are similar. The difference is tractability, the 450 4s is "finding traction", and that is why it is winning. Souping up a 250 2s even more isn't going to do any good if it all goes up in wheelspin. The objective is to win and 250 2s's need technology that will make them more tractable and able to find traction. Proof of this is that 35hp 4s are posting the fastest laptimes on some tracks.
Very Valid comment Sachsgs, in my opinion the original popularity of the fourstroke comes from its smooth power delivery gaining maximum traction possible from low revs upwards, due to the power delivery."Generally speaking" two strokes provide a distinctive powerband and naturaly when the power comes in its initiall inertia is likley to spin the rear wheel causing a break in traction.At the risk of stating the obvious, the Maicos still provide that almost linear power that comes straight off the idle as smooth as you like.Of couse we must remember that when Yamaha first popped a four stroke motor into a M.X. bike in the eye's of the world Maico was dead and burried so their would be no comparison to their new bike.
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I believe it, JETZ. One of my brothers had a 1985 Husqvarna 500CR, not XC, but the motocrosser. Six speeds. That I believe, was probably the fastest dirtbike I ever rode. Was too tall for my tastes, I'm just 5/8, but it was a beauty on the straights. Thought I'd post some pics of a couple of the old bikes I mentioned earlier in this thread, just for laughs. I didn't have much money so I ended up with old used bikes in those days, that were mostly piles of junk, but were fun at the time.
First one is my '70 Kawasaki Green Streak. Was originally a 250 and was, believe it or not, raced in local MX races. I put a 350 top end on it and power wasn't bad for the time. It hated jumps, wanted to flip, then nosedive, lol. 2nd pic has me at 17, with the same bike in back, my 14 year old brother in front with his 360 Bultaco (I think) Bandito. Not sure what year it was, can't remember. It was a 4 speed, and considerably faster than the Kawasaki, but not as fast as my next bike, the evil, wicked, mean and nasty, 1974 Yamaha SC500. Third pic is me starting the SC 500. In the back, the guy holding the cowboy hat leaning on the 1975 Honda CR125 Elsinore, is the guy who several years later, bought the '84 Honda CR500 I was referring to in my previous posts. Anyhow, back to the SC500 here. It had a desert racing tank on it, but was otherwise stock. Those things were notorious for seizing, but it never seized on me. I found the trick was mixing the oil at 10:1 instead of the usual 20:1. Even so, after about 30 minutes of riding, it would lose power very badly due to overheating. Would have to park it and let it cool. It was fast, but I actually feel my older 350 was a better machine.
(http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae311/Twostroke17/Fam%20Pics/e044557c.jpg)
(http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae311/Twostroke17/Fam%20Pics/scan0198.jpg)
(http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae311/Twostroke17/Fam%20Pics/scan0197.jpg)
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That's true, Maico International, but the old Maico 490s already had considerably more power than the new 450 4strokes, and I'm sure the new ones are probably the best machines made. Wasn't knocking their kind of power, merely pointing out that a 250 needed quite a power boost from stock, in order to really compete against factory 450 4strokes, and simply broadening the powerband wasn't enough. Project 250 is adding a lot of hp though and doesn't have a problem here it would seem.
Just out of curiosity, I've got a question on Maico power, maybe you can answer it. I'd heard that the newer 620 Maicos actually were faster and more powerful than the 700 model, which was supposedly more mildly tuned. Just curious as to if you know if this is or was, true.
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The higher unsprung weight of a 17" tire has a considerable effect on accelleration and suspension action.
yes it does and can easily be felt. i have always prefered the 18" to the 19" but the 19" came about from SX racing where sidewall flex was considered detrimental. on my CR/KX 500's and KTM 380SX i have used the 120 width tire on hardpack tracks for years rather than the 110. it acts like a huge flywheel weight and keeps the wheel spin in check on blue groove and wet greasy tracks. the few times a year i ride in ideal conditions is where the 110 tire shines.
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Somehow, with a tremendously powerful 2stroke, far more powerful than any 250 2stroke, he managed to get enough power to the ground to easily blow away the big 4strokes which get such great traction.
While I've mentioned this before it bears repeating here... to get the most out of an Open class two-stroke, you've got to shift much earlier than you think. If the bike is "revving out" you are just spinning your wheels, making a show of it, wasting time and energy and not going nearly as fast as is possible.
This is the reason for the inequality in displacement between the two and four stroke... otherwise there would be little that they could do to be competitive at the Pro level.
The Open bike loves to be shifted early, to the point that it seems like it would never pull the next gear. When ridden in this manner you are treated to missile like speeds.... with all the wonderful benefits of much less rider input attempting to control the rear wheel from ripping the knobs off the tire... and the front wheel seeking cruising altitude.
Getting back to Project Two 50 keep in mind that the tracks have been set up with arcing turns, there are very few tight corners on Pro MX tracks... this one change alone will allow you to set up the bike with a powerband that does not need to be so linear...
Add to that the current direction the four-strokes are headed, which is to smoother power delivery (mainly because no one can race the machines wide open) and the switch to 350cc Open bikes... it opens the door to the 250 two-stroke being much more competitive than they had been in the past.
I loved the videos of the 2003 Supercross... there was one move where Chad Reed dove between two four-strokes in front of the mechanics area and just plain out-accelerated them to the next corner.
Besides that the sound of the two-stroke is racing... the four-stroke sound you can't tell the good guys from the not so good guys. You could hear where Chad was on the gas and RC was not as hard... you have to really listen and concentrate, but you can hear it.
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I may be wrong but what I think we will see in the future are DFI two strokes with some kind of wheelspin sensing traction control. Bike management electronics are transforming the streetbike world and I think it is inevitable that this technology is applied offroad as well.I'm very curious to see how a FI conversion would alter an existing 2s MX after reading an article about 2s streetbike conversions.
On the subject of Maicos, I've always marvelled at how the big bore Maico can be so civil, almost vibration free with a "sleepy" smooth output, and yet make so much power.Back when the 4s were first gaining popularity I'd be riding with a bunch of "blue bikes" and I'd constantly have to be careful not to run into them but I thought "no big deal they're just 250 4s".Imagine my surprise when, at the end of the day, I realized they were all YZ426's.
As for those 360 Bandito's I sold a few on Ebay and let me tell you the Spanish collectors sure like them.I could sell a dozen tomorrow if I could find them.
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That's true, Maico International, but the old Maico 490s already had considerably more power than the new 450 4strokes, and I'm sure the new ones are probably the best machines made. Wasn't knocking their kind of power, merely pointing out that a 250 needed quite a power boost from stock, in order to really compete against factory 450 4strokes, and simply broadening the powerband wasn't enough. Project 250 is adding a lot of hp though and doesn't have a problem here it would seem.
Just out of curiosity, I've got a question on Maico power, maybe you can answer it. I'd heard that the newer 620 Maicos actually were faster and more powerful than the 700 model, which was supposedly more mildly tuned. Just curious as to if you know if this is or was, true.
Turquine,
I have to be a little careful how I put this without giving too much away about our development and future press releases but in a word, no the 700 is definetly a lot faster than the 620!
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"I may be wrong but what I think we will see in the future are DFI two strokes with some kind of wheelspin sensing traction control. Bike management electronics are transforming the streetbike world and I think it is inevitable that this technology is applied offroad as well.I'm very curious to see how a FI conversion would alter an existing 2s MX after reading an article about 2s streetbike conversions."
isn't that the supposed to be riders job ;D But seriously, how about those electric bikes with a throttle controlled 2st sound track and a castrol based incense burner in a pipe under the seat ;)
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Hey, the way things are going we may all be on battery powered MX'rs soon anyway.Enjoy the ride!
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I still think that once algal fuel becomes economical enough to sell on a large scale, the gasoline engine will remain as the dominant engine, and be the option of choice for environmentally-conscious buyers. Because of the way the fuel is produced, you can run one mile to the gallon and still be carbon-neutral (although it'll still be an expensive proposition.)
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Just an FYI - from the AMA Pro Racing rulebook;
3.15 Telemetry and Traction Control
a. Electronic devices designed specifically for traction control are
prohibited. This includes sensors that can determine front wheel
speed and any electronic control to the brake systems.
b. Electronic transmittal of information, including radio communication
to or from a moving motorcycle, is prohibited with the following
exceptions:
i. AMA Pro Racing transponders utilized for scoring purposes
(mandatory equipment assigned by AMA Pro Racing).
ii. Data or video transmitted for the sole use of AMA Pro Racingapproved
event television production (mandatory equipment
assigned by AMA Pro Racing).
c. Electronic lap-timing devices are permitted. Transmitter beacons
must be in an approved area. Receivers shall not be mounted on
the front area of the front number plate.
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Thanks, Maico International! You answered my question. I know from a test I read recently that the newer Maico 500s are considerably quicker than the old 490s so, that tells me that more than likely, that Maico 700 is the quickest, most powerful stock dirtbike of all time. Man I wish there was an unbiased magazine out there that could test that baby! What a desert machine that would make. I look forward to the day you can give us more info on that beauty. Thanks for your answer though, I appreciate it.
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Here's what they should do. They should take some of the more "hot" two-stroke riders from around the country, have them ride the bike for a week and really get to know it, write down their thoughts, get some numbers, whatever. Then, hand all this over to Super Hunky to write up an article like it was 1972, with none of that corporate bullshit. Go ahead and throw in some built-to-the-hilt 450Fs for the test, as well, to see how they fare against a stock 700.
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Hey John, I was just wondering, but before you picked Yamaha, did you guys ever consider service Honda and their cr250r in a 2010 crf250r frame? That would be a killer bike if the motor was properly tuned. I think that it would actually be under the weight limit, imagine that, having to add weight to your bike, while the factory teams have to spend thousands to take weight off. Are you guys considering using service Honda next season if Yamaha does not end up helping out with bikes?
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I'd think twice about starting a big two-stroke revolution campaign aboard something with the word Honda in it. People in the grandstands might see it winning and dart over to their friendly local Honda dealer, which wouldn't exactly help the two-stroke cause as much as if we used a bike from a factory that is definitely recognizable as making two-strokes. A lot of people would hear "Service Honda" and not even think it was an actual separate outfit that makes their own Franken-bikes.
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Hey John, I was just wondering, but before you picked Yamaha, did you guys ever consider service Honda and their cr250r in a 2010 crf250r frame? That would be a killer bike if the motor was properly tuned. I think that it would actually be under the weight limit, imagine that, having to add weight to your bike, while the factory teams have to spend thousands to take weight off. Are you guys considering using service Honda next season if Yamaha does not end up helping out with bikes?
Very interesting question. The quick answer is yes, we did think about the Service Honda bikes... in fact I spoke to AJ at Service about the YZ250 in the 2010 YZF250 frame (which should be done sometime soon)
We also considered KTM, TM Racing and Maico as well. Because we have relationships with TM and Maico it was a no brainer... Unfortunately the Pro AMA rules contain a homologation rule. This rule of course can not be found in any rule book and no one asked knows where to find it. I was sent in circles when asking who to ask!
Personally we probably would have been TM Racing mounted if it were up to us and we could choose any machine we wanted. Mike absolutely loves the TM125 he has been riding/racing! We didn't really want to race a bike from the Big 4...
For next year we have been kindly offered Maicos to compete on... although we have not had the opportunity to test one yet. But the challenge will be the Pro AMA rules.
It almost seems as though the Big 4 don't want any other manufacturers competing against them. Could this actually be true? :o :o
Why the Yamaha? Because Mike had one already! As a fun puzzle.. when our bike is all finished, try to find the name Yamaha anyplace on the bike! lol
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Very interesting question. The quick answer is yes, we did think about the Service Honda bikes... in fact I spoke to AJ at Service about the YZ250 in the 2010 YZF250 frame (which should be done sometime soon)
We also considered KTM, TM Racing and Maico as well. Because we have relationships with TM and Maico it was a no brainer... Unfortunately the Pro AMA rules contain a homologation rule. This rule of course can not be found in any rule book and no one asked knows where to find it. I was sent in circles when asking who to ask!
Personally we probably would have been TM Racing mounted if it were up to us and we could choose any machine we wanted. Mike absolutely loves the TM125 he has been riding/racing! We didn't really want to race a bike from the Big 4...
For next year we have been kindly offered Maicos to compete on... although we have not had the opportunity to test one yet. But the challenge will be the Pro AMA rules.
It almost seems as though the Big 4 don't want any other manufacturers competing against them. Could this actually be true? :o :o
Why the Yamaha? Because Mike had one already! As a fun puzzle.. when our bike is all finished, try to find the name Yamaha anyplace on the bike! lol
Hey John. I really enjoy hearing about everything involved with Project Two50. Its great to hear about what has been considered for the project and all the small goings on that are part and parcel of a race team. Did you not manage to speak to Davey Coombs himself to to clarify the homologation rules regarding the Maico or TM. I am sure success at the national level would do wonders for either of these companies in regards to future sales. Surely you would have had an argument to back up your case with 2010 RMZ250's being raced in the supercross without bikes for sale in the States.
And remember, keep an eye out for those black helicopters.
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The Homologation rule has to go.
Are the big 4 scared of competion ? Yep :(
Will they lose sales to the smaller guy's ? Hope so. ;D
They have had it too good for too long.
Quite a few people on this site bemoan the lack off individuality between the big 4.
The smaller manufactors are able to build something a bit different because they can.
Thats whats good about the Euro bikes.
More manufactors means more fans.
Everyone has their favorite brand and will show up to events with their flags & Tee shirts to cheer on "Their bike".
Imagine the sales someone like Maico/TM would get if someone like Chad Reed/Ryan Villopoto/Dungey won races for them :P.
It would piss off the big 4 and maybe force them into doing something different.
Remember the only reason the factory's race is to sell motocycles.
The average guy on the street's hasn't heard of the likes of TM/Maico/Gas Gas because they don't see them on TV.
Get them on the grid asap.
Variety is the spice of life.
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Well, I think the homologation rule does have some purpose to it, and that's to keep the Works bikes out. Let's face it, if we (supporters of privateers) want to stand any chance against the Big Four, then we can't allow them to show up to the track with $500,000 one-off bikes that have nothing to do with real for-sale equipment. I gather Honda was racing in the open class for many years before they even sold an open-class bike to the public. And I remember one magazine test of a CR250 that said that the works bikes were red, and the production bikes were red, and that's where the similarities ended. We can't compete against that, and it would be damn hard for someone like, say, Maico to justify investing that much in a single bike, as it would be a massive blow to their budget, compared to the relatively minor impact a works bike would have on a Big Four budget. Hell, even in the ye olde days when Maico was a big name, the Champion's works bike was pretty much the prototype for the next-year production bike. They just couldn't afford to put that much into it.
However, I do think that when homologation is taken to the point where someone on a TM can't even line up on the gate, it's being taken much too far. I don't know what the best balance would be, but perhaps saying that any bike model that's up to be raced must be produced in such numbers that there's one for every dealer. That's the system they used for NASCAR back when they were based on production cars, and that's why we have Plymouth Superbirds cruising the highways. It was like a "works car" that they sold to the public.
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JETZcorp - I have a question for you... currently there are ZERO dealers for TM Racing and ZERO dealers for Maico in the USA... So currently each dealer does have at least one! LOL
While I understand what you are getting at, in theory it should work as you say, but it's not even close in real life.
As an example, we purchased a set of Kayaba A Kit suspension, for someone that can actually use these parts to any level, they are head and shoulders above anything the public can buy... They cost about $10K although the Showa Works stuff costs $20K
If you think that the factories stop here you are mistaken! They spend significantly more than that, just for suspension.
Look closely at the four-stroke works bikes, try to figure out what they cost. For a little bit of help, I will relate a first hand story. One of our buddies was a factory mechanic, he told us that he spent over 20 hours polishing the linkage on one "works" bike! Add a dollar figure to that kind of time... it gets very expensive really quickly.
The "factory" teams have stuff that no privateer short of Bill Gates son (if he had one) could afford.
The question is, does the rule really accomplish it's intention? The answer is NO!
All it does is exclude small companies from being able to compete.
To me it's very much like the good old boys club... they don't really care for anyone else to steal any of their thunder.
As for asking about the actual rule, I've asked folks from MX Sports and the AMA... no one can even tell me where the rule is written! Sort of makes you go .... hmmmmm.
HEADS DOWN.... another black helicopter! :P :P
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Well, no matter what, the big factories are going to have a money advantage. That's a given. However, what I'm saying is that they shouldn't be able to use the actual factory itself to produce a one-off bike with its own unique frame and engine, and ship it over from Japan to compete. You have to admit, a "real" works bike like that, which has hundreds or even thousands of hours of engineering behind it, not to mention fabrication, has to be orders of magnitude more exclusive than hiring a mechanic to polish something. If they are even considering polishing things, they're playing a tuning game and not a production game.
Anyway, it seems to me that if Maico and TM have no dealerships in the US (is that really true that TM has no US locations?!) then I think it's perfectly fair that they should not be allowed to race in the American Motorcyclist Association Championship. There's no problem with foreign machinery in a domestic race, so long as domestic customers can buy the damn thing. Now, of course there would have to be an allowance for internet sales, like if you have your Maico ordered for you and shipped over to the US in a crate. I think that should count as sales to the US and that internet distribution channel should be counted as a dealer, or maybe even multiple dealers depending on how many bikes they move. Like, let's say the average friendly local Big Four shop sells 20 bikes a month, and XYZ International Motocross in Switzerland is selling 40 bikes a month to the US, I think XYZ International should be said to have two "dealer equivalents" in the US.
That's just an example I came up with, but it would work better than a "Thou shalt make X0,000 somethings per year" system.
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The reason for no dealerships is because so many have gone out of business... now I'm talking about the Big 4... many of them have gone out of business.
TM and Maico are small companies, they don't have any dealers here because they are no able to compete in Pro motocross... hmmm a catch 22. Both of these machines are sold direct from the manufacturer. Some brave small shops may decide to carry the damn foreign bikes... that would be nice.
So the Big 4 can continue their domination of the MX market in piece. Those darn Europeans, what the heck are they thinking!
Of course, the above is in jest, sort of.
The truth is that the rules are extremely "flexible" for the Big 4. For instance, Suzuki raced a 2010 RMZ250 in the 250 class, when there we ZERO on dealership floors. All of the Big 4 have warehouses full of four-strokes that no one wants to buy. They can't just fill up the warehouses so they can meet the rules anymore.
So the whole thing comes full-circle. See they don't have to sell that certain number, they just have to import that number. If you have enough money to import enough machines, you can compete.. if not you're out of luck.
I've heard stories of the process, where all they had to show the committee was the owners manuals!!
Even Maico and TM could afford to print enough manuals to pass that test. But they are not in the "club" and must be excluded.
Like I said, I understand the rule and it's intention, but it's broken and excludes small manufacturers. Besides, even if they could do unlimited things to a machine or have full-on factory bikes, technology has come pretty close to the point where it would not be leaps and bounds better than what they already have.
When a rule only excludes competition, it's a bad rule.
How about this take on it, they have to be production frames, cases, cylinders and heads. They have to be available and for sale to the general public.
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I like that idea. So long as someone in the country can purchase the bike without leaving the United States (read: Import it in a crate or buy it in a dealership) then that bike should be allowed. That's not to say, if XYZ sells a 150F they can then XYZ is allowed into the AMA racing. I mean, the XYZ150F is allowed in. I think a price limit should be set also, because it would be possible for a company so make a "works" bike in the full one-off $500,000 sense, and offer it for sale knowing full well that no one will ever buy one. So maybe a $20,000 price ceiling in 2010 US dollars would be workable? And I like the limit on modification, to what extent is that regulated right now? Just how far to they let you go?
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I honestly don't understand how your brain work's Jetz. ???
John just bet me to some of the things i was going to say in the above post.
Yes it a catch 22 situation.
The thing is, TM DOES have dealers around the world but can't in the USA cause they are not allowed to race.
The "Boy's Club" needs to be broken up.
The other thing is the TM & Maico "ARE" production bikes, just not according to the AMA. :'(
The factory bikes from the big 4 are so removed from what you & I can buy it just makes a mockery of the currant rules anyway.
It's quite simple.
Let TM/Maico/Husenburg/Sherco etc race and they WILL sell bikes in the USA.
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Here is a link to the AMA Pro rule book...
http://www.mxsportsproracing.com/pages/rules/ama-pro-racing-rules (http://www.mxsportsproracing.com/pages/rules/ama-pro-racing-rules)
What I quoted at the end of my last post was basically the rules... as they are written in the rule book.
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Now I remember in the 70's the big four had their super trick exotic one off factory racers and we had the privateers who were somewhat able to hold their own against the factory guys, especially in the open class. Remember the claiming rule?, do they still have it? And what about the guy that builds his own in his garage?
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I don't really buy the notion that it's impossible to even sell ONE bike in the US, or open ONE shop without fielding a team to campaign in the nationals on TV. Maybe I don't understand the rules, but I'm pretty sure you can run one of these non-homologated bikes in amateur competition, right? Seems to me that's the biggest demographic for potential riders. Now obviously, without the publicity that comes from having a guy racing on TV, they're not going to instantly be able to move the volume of one of the Big Four. But, we've seen what the sentiments are in the two-stroke community. Maico and TM are the big names that are traded back and forth. Maico could absolutely open up shop here in the US, even if it's not a physical shop. Aren't there already plans to do this? Doesn't that, in itself, discredit the idea that you have to be in the AMA in order to sell any bikes?
And remember, I'm not proposing that we go with the current system. I'm saying we should lower the requirements so drastically, that all you have to do to be eligible to compete is sell motorcycles directly to the United States. You mentioned Husaberg, well I just looked them up, and it turns out I could get in my car and be at the door of a Husaberg shop less than fifteen minutes from the time I hit the "Post" button on this message. Under the homologation rules I'm proposing, that means they can legally race any bike that is offered through that shop, or any other shop, or any other channel of acquisition in the US. They're in, by my rules. And it's notable that not all of these shops are exclusive. In fact, the Husaberg site is pointing me to a shop in Seattle where my friend and I thought about picking up a 1980 Husky for him, that they were selling at that shop! There's a KTM dealership really close to my house that also has the Big Four on their sign, so clearly it's possible to have a shop that's not single-marque. There's no law saying that you couldn't try opening a Big-Four-Plus-Maico dealership, or even a Husqvarna-TM-Maico-Husaberg-Ossa-GasGas shop.
What I'm saying is, the fact that some particular marque isn't participating in AMA races at the current time doesn't prevent them from selling motorcycles in the US, and I think that should be enough to allow them to race. Under the current rules, it's apparently not considered enough, and just like everyone else, I want that changed. However, I still don't believe you should be able to enter a bike in the hard-core national AMA races unless it's available to the American public at large. That way, we give the small manufacturers an incentive to sell their bikes here, to compete in the big races (because they can, and it'll be good PR) and everyone will develop their for-sale bikes, rather than one-off works bikes.
I don't see what's wrong with this. Maybe you thought I didn't want a rules change or something?
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What i meant Jetz is it is catch 22 situation.
I understand that that there has to be some kind of factory back up service available but it's hard for the small guy to get started when it is excluded from national event's
Now im not saying let any one who thinks they can build a bike in to race, but companies like TM are well establised around the world except the states.
You and I might know of these brands but the casual observer is not.
They are your future market.
The big 4/5 have it all their own way at the moment.
As an example look at any 250F bike test.
Do you see TM/Husqvarna/Sherco etc. Not very often.
These small companies do not have the budget to market them selves like the big boy's.
I am sure people seeing something different on the start grid would be a major boost for the little guy.
An old friend of mine asked me the other month what sort of bike i had. When i told him a TM he went blank for a moment thinking 'what?' then he said 'Oh i know what that is, i saw one at the street races over christmas, man that thing kicked ass'. TM do a lot of Motad racing and sent their world champ down here for the summer.
That is the power of competing! :)
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Right. And considering that TM have a dealership in Bakersfield, CA (according to their site), they would be perfectly eligible to compete in AMA racing if I were to have my way about how the rules should be run. It would be really nice if it were possible to actually find that homologation rule. The fact that it's not clearly available for all to see is really suspicious.
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JETZcorp - you crack me up... now I understand, you are talking about what you would do to the rules if you were in charge. Not so sure that's a good idea putting you in charge! LOL
When we compete locally on the TM people show an interest but they seem to say the same thing, there are no dealers near them. When we tell them that you can get parts in a couple of days via USPS or UPS they don't like the idea.
Although I've got to say that with the YZ250 we have had quite a few times where not only the local dealer did not have gaskets, circlips and other parts that you would think they would stock, but dealers in a 500 mile radius did not have them. So we had to order them and it took 3 to 5 days!
Perception is everything in this day and age.
While you are correct that in theory if you won all the amateur races on these machines that folks would buy these machines like candy, but it does not work out that way. Because these manufacturers are small they don't have the money of the Big 4. So even in the amateur scene it's lopsided.
Many really good racers have earned the privilege of getting "free" bikes from the Big 5, these smaller manufacturers can't justify doing that on a small scale.
They would receive much more "bang for the buck" by competing on the National stage.
Can I ask you a question? Have you ever attended a Pro Motocross race, in person I mean.
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John you make a good point about parts availability with your TM/Yamaha comparison. but, and there's always a but. the big Jap companys have a well established parts distibution network. if the dealer dosen't have it, the part will arrive in the std. amount of time , 3-5 days. so if you break down on the weekend and order the parts on monday you can ride the next weekend as long as nothing is on backorder. i've worked at shops that sold Euro bikes like Ducati, Husky, MV Augusta, pre '98 KTM, etc. and parts delivery can be sometimes spotty at best. Husky (pre BMW) used to have years they brought no bikes or parts into the country. you needed Ducati body work? it will be in-next year! i'm not kidding. my last years of really competing in local MX were racing a '99 KTM 380SX from '99-'05. i destroyed two rear shocks in that time. the first one took 9 months for the part to become available. i just bought another used shock after waiting a month. i really have been eyeing those new Macio's especially if they come out with a 360-380cc model but i am gunshy about parts and what kind of prices and pain they will be to get.
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John you make a good point about parts availability with your TM/Yamaha comparison. but, and there's always a but. the big Jap companys have a well established parts distibution network. if the dealer dosen't have it, the part will arrive in the std. amount of time , 3-5 days. so if you break down on the weekend and order the parts on monday you can ride the next weekend as long as nothing is on backorder. i've worked at shops that sold Euro bikes like Ducati, Husky, MV Augusta, pre '98 KTM, etc. and parts delivery can be sometimes spotty at best. Husky (pre BMW) used to have years they brought no bikes or parts into the country. you needed Ducati body work? it will be in-next year! i'm not kidding. my last years of really competing in local MX were racing a '99 KTM 380SX from '99-'05. i destroyed two rear shocks in that time. the first one took 9 months for the part to become available. i just bought another used shock after waiting a month. i really have been eyeing those new Macio's especially if they come out with a 360-380cc model but i am gunshy about parts and what kind of prices and pain they will be to get.
Crikey! Over 9 months to a year to wait for parts? No way!!
So far, there has only been one part that was not in stock here in North America on the TM. It was ordered from Italy and took two weeks to get. It is now in stock!!
From my understanding Maico will be doing a very similar thing.
These companies understand what it means to be a rider and want to be out on your bike. They want to make sure that you will have access to the parts that will keep you out there riding and happy.
Now nothing is perfect...
Here is anther scenario though... if you know a few folks that would be interested in buying a few bikes, see if a local shop (even a small successful accessory shop) in your area would consider becoming a dealer. That you would buy the bike and your parts from them. They would probably show an interest in carrying the bikes. Just a thought.
Again you bring up a catch 22 situation. Few are interested in becoming dealers because they might not sell any machines and buyers are not interested in buying machines unless there is a dealer.
To take that process a step further, how many of you have been frustrated with a dealer because they didn't carry something in stock and you had to wait a week or more to get it. Then it cost you 20 to 30% more than a mail order place where you would have had the parts in your hand sooner?
Lot's of things to consider.
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I think people worry too much about parts availability.
Modern bikes are so reliable that you shouldnt be worrying about parts.
Sure things can go wrong but it's not that common.
I think people perceive the euro bikes as not as reliable as the jap bikes because there are less around.
I can get most TM parts off the shelf. Levers/sprockets/clutch/air filter/chain guide etc.
The only thing that would worry me is if i smashed a case. :(
But it would still take 3 weeks to get a jap one anyway.
Hey John: does your 125 have the CR clutch in it ?
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Parts availability is a weird thing. I mean, aside from super-rare things like 40-year-old Kawasaki pistons, I just don't worry about it. Like Kiwi said, most everything you need is going to be standard and easy to find even at non-motorcycle places. Like, when my Husky tried to disintegrate on the last ride, half of everything we needed was already in the workshop (bolts, loc-tite, etc.) and the rest was fairly easy to find. The only real "bike part" we're dealing with is an axle, and we're only doing that because we happen to know a guy who has a spare one laying around. If we needed one, and if we didn't have one, there are websites to find something like that, made new and wrapped in plastic. I hear tell that a huge number of parts for old Maicos can be had by literally calling up Maico and ordering the thing, and it ain't going to take no nine months to get it. I really can't imagine that a 2010 bike could be harder to get parts for today than a 1978 bike is. It just can't, unless someone just disbands their customer service department entirely.
So yeah, I'm with Kiwi I don't think it's a big deal. However, everyone worries about it, and that's enough to seriously put a dent in sales.
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John,
So is this yz250 in a 2010 yz250f frame thing a good possibility for this season, or would it be next? Also, would Service Honda be doing it for you guys? Also, does anyone know if the new 250f frame even handles any better than the old two stroke frame? Is it any better, it sure looks sweet, but when I sat on one, it sure felt heavy, although, it had a 450 engine tucked away underneath it.
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John,
So is this yz250 in a 2010 yz250f frame thing a good possibility for this season, or would it be next? Also, would Service Honda be doing it for you guys? Also, does anyone know if the new 250f frame even handles any better than the old two stroke frame? Is it any better, it sure looks sweet, but when I sat on one, it sure felt heavy, although, it had a 450 engine tucked away underneath it.
NO... we will not being doing the 2010 F frame with a two-stroke motor. All I said was that I "spoke" to Aj and they will be building some this spring.
As for which one handles better, the only way to know would be to test them side by side. While the newer machine "looks" better it is designed for a four-stroke engine, I'm no engineer, but the placement of the engine in the frame will affect the handling of the machine. The fact that the two-stroke engine is lighter would affect the handling....
While it would look better than the 2005 and up YZ250, until they are tested and compared, it's impossible to make a judgment call on it.
To answer the question about what bikes we will be racing in 2011, that is an unknown.
I do know that I would almost prefer NOT to use a machine from the Big 4... not for any "sinister" reasons, but just so we stick out that much more!! In this case that's a good thing.
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eyeing those new Macio's especially if they come out with a 360-380cc model but i am gunshy about parts and what kind of prices and pain they will be to get.
Maico parts are surprisingly easy to get. A lot of the parts for the engine have been and are the same since the 80s. Prices are little more expensive I guess, not near KTM prices. A new shifting fork is $77, a new piston is $200, to put some numbers out there.
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The trick to getting parts for small manufacturers like TM and Maico is to know what parts cross reference to other manufacturers.You can then get these parts through aftermarket suppliers and the bikes become surprisingly easy and inexpensive to maintain.
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Exactly sachs.
Cross reference parts for 07 TM300
Clutch plates : CR250
Air filter : CR250
Front disc pads : KTM
Rear disc pads : RMZ
Radiators : KTM
Pegs : Gas Gas
When the Maicos come out you will find alot of parts will cross over.