Post by: ford832 on July 05, 2013, 10:20:31 PM
RV is in the position he's in because he came up racing only fourstrokes and therefore rides better and differently from everyone else.-words to that effect anyway.
After that comment I don't think RC knew what to say.
In other words,riding a 2t when you're young hampers your ability to ride a 4t when you get older.
I'm not overly sensitive about this stuff I can see the benefit in 4t's in some situations but I think Emig's finally lost it.
Post by: scotty dog on July 05, 2013, 10:25:46 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on July 05, 2013, 10:36:14 PM
Post by: vetman on July 05, 2013, 10:51:35 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on July 06, 2013, 06:12:23 AM
To take it even further was RC so slow when he got older from riding 2ts most his life then shifting to 4ts I Don't Think So!
2005 Lucas oil AMA nats. He rode a 450, and gobbled up everyone whether 450, 250 or postie bike.
Post by: factoryX on July 06, 2013, 06:50:17 AM
Post by: _X_ on July 06, 2013, 11:57:29 AM
Post by: rlaj1004 on July 06, 2013, 05:11:08 PM
hey! i got fat riding two strokes.
I think it might be the beer and burgers after the riding.
Post by: _X_ on July 06, 2013, 10:03:27 PM
Post by: Lolerbabop on July 06, 2013, 10:49:47 PM
hey! i got fat riding two strokes.You were fat all along. So was your vagina.
Post by: _X_ on July 07, 2013, 12:33:43 AM
Post by: luthier269 on July 07, 2013, 01:21:18 PM
Post by: eprovenzano on July 07, 2013, 01:47:54 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on July 07, 2013, 10:52:12 PM
I was never a big fan of his, I just viewed him as another talking head... that was until his comments about Robby Marshall causing Canard to crash, when it was the other way around. I guess I never really payed much attention to him, and now I can't believe he is the "expert" color commentator... Not only did he get it wrong, (spouting off before he new the facts) he really didn't give Robby much even when he got hurt because of Canard's bike issues. He never gave Robby a chance... that's fine, but get the facts before you get diarrhea of the mouth...
That issues didn't need facts before the commentators ran off at the mouth. There was one simple one that instantly makes Robbie Marshal an **** in the eyes of the commentators: His bike didn't have Cams. Its as simple as that. They always did the same thing during the early days of 450F and 250F development too. Dissed out the two strokes whether their riding was flawless or not. It might not look like much but an impressionable young kid who watches the nationals WILL pick up that sort of vibe. Its what the Big Five are hoping for and, judging by the opinions of younger riders these days, its working.
Post by: Stusmoke on July 13, 2013, 10:24:50 PM
Frodo is a tard! He has always been a tard! He will always be a tard!
Don't even think about giving me any crap about calling someone a tard. I know what a tard is, my sister was retarded. It may not be PC but it is the correct term. She passed earler this year at the age of 36.
......PC? Perfect?
Post by: rlaj1004 on July 14, 2013, 02:10:13 AM
[/quote]
......PC? Perfect?
[/quote]
LOL really PC= politically correct, which none of ( or very few of) the posters on here are. ROTFLMFAO
What was that all about anyway, who is Frodo, wasn't he a Hobbit?
Post by: Stusmoke on July 14, 2013, 03:27:31 AM
Post by: Stusmoke on July 14, 2013, 03:28:34 AM
Post by: factoryX on July 14, 2013, 04:19:06 AM
Post by: _X_ on July 14, 2013, 08:43:46 PM
Post by: eprovenzano on July 15, 2013, 12:52:18 PM
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 15, 2013, 01:14:46 PM
Dumbass.
Post by: _X_ on July 15, 2013, 09:04:44 PM
its ok to type retarded, you cant type ****or **** cause i'm always been censored for it. watch.see, magic.
Post by: cnrcpla on July 15, 2013, 09:45:12 PM
Quote
Quote from: racer x on July 15, 2013, 03:43:46 AMAnd here I thought that was just us forum members being more PC
its ok to type retarded, you cant type ****or **** cause i'm always been censored for it. watch.
see, magic.
Post by: luthier269 on July 20, 2013, 03:18:16 AM
Post by: _X_ on July 20, 2013, 12:23:22 PM
Post by: luthier269 on July 20, 2013, 05:36:54 PM
Post by: _X_ on July 20, 2013, 05:42:28 PM
Post by: rlaj1004 on July 20, 2013, 06:58:24 PM
it would only do good if it had adjustable bars like the kx 80.
Ha
Post by: Stusmoke on July 20, 2013, 11:53:42 PM
I would love to see a top rider on a modern 450 two stroke and see how their super advanced 450 four stroke would do!
Most likely wouldn't even qualify. Be quite hard to ride against the broad useable 450Fs. Maybe with the application of EFI to mellow and broaden it out, like Uniflows YZ250 did. My idea of perfect would be: Massive bottom end torque and a smooth midrange transition.
Post by: factoryX on July 21, 2013, 12:14:33 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioED0GrMXY
Yep, so unridable. 75-80hp btw.
Post by: Stusmoke on July 21, 2013, 12:40:56 AM
Wrong, no replacement for displacement. Large bore bikes are very broad powerband and are very ridable. Go ride one before you make that call. And with today's wide open flat tracks, bahahaha.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioED0GrMXY
Yep, so unridable. 75-80hp btw.
.... Rideable? 250Fs regularly post laptimes that are as quick or quicker than the 450Fs, why? Because its manageable. Theres several replacements for displacement, rideability, usability and skill. I never said 500s are unrideable, but you can't possible try to claim that its as or more rideable than a 450F, for which todays tracks are designed, and to which todays riders are accustomed. It would take someone with titanium balls as big as dinner plates and solid 500cc experience to make it happen.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 21, 2013, 10:13:17 AM
.... Rideable? 250Fs regularly post laptimes that are as quick or quicker than the 450Fs, why?
Because they ride the track before the 450's thus the track isn't as deteriorated. This year (or maybe last year), the AMA started swapping them. At the races where the 250's ran second, they were 4 second a lap slower than the 450's.
Not calling you out, just clarifying. I used to believe that too.
However, "Back in the day", the 250's (2-stroke) did turn moto times faster thna the 500's. (Not necessarily 1 lap but over the whole moto). Also many races ran the 125's and the 500's together. I remember seeing Bob Hannah on a 125 race at Sunshine Speedway in Florida sand. I ran at the front, fell down, got up in 4th and ran them down...again. Watching Hannah was like watching Bubba...with out the crashes.
Quote
It would take someone with titanium balls as big as dinner plates and solid 500cc experience to make it happen.
Although I agree that a 500 is a "Man's Bike", on todays tracks, the 500 is not so scary and quite fun to ride. At a National this year in Portugal, a guy showed up with a 500 Honda. Now he is a usual 450F rider but his bike was down (valves-go figure) and he just wanted to score points. He borrowed a buddies bike (who wanted it at the races to sell it) and he took a 5th and 7th for 7th overall.
The truth is, the bigger the displacement, the easier it is to ride because you can mellow the power out and not have to keep it on the edge of explosion to go fast. The 450F is WAY MORE RIDABLE and forgiving than the 250F. Just like a 250 2T is easier to ride well than a 125 - where you have to wring it's kneck and ride WAY OVER YOUR HEAD to go the same speed.
Of course, on the 125 you FEEL like Hannah, but you probably don't look as good...
Post by: Stusmoke on July 21, 2013, 11:12:39 AM
.... Rideable? 250Fs regularly post laptimes that are as quick or quicker than the 450Fs, why?
Because they ride the track before the 450's thus the track isn't as deteriorated. This year (or maybe last year), the AMA started swapping them. At the races where the 250's ran second, they were 4 second a lap slower than the 450's.
Not calling you out, just clarifying. I used to believe that too.
However, "Back in the day", the 250's (2-stroke) did turn moto times faster thna the 500's. (Not necessarily 1 lap but over the whole moto). Also many races ran the 125's and the 500's together. I remember seeing Bob Hannah on a 125 race at Sunshine Speedway in Florida sand. I ran at the front, fell down, got up in 4th and ran them down...again. Watching Hannah was like watching Bubba...with out the crashes.QuoteIt would take someone with titanium balls as big as dinner plates and solid 500cc experience to make it happen.
Although I agree that a 500 is a "Man's Bike", on todays tracks, the 500 is not so scary and quite fun to ride. At a National this year in Portugal, a guy showed up with a 500 Honda. Now he is a usual 450F rider but his bike was down (valves-go figure) and he just wanted to score points. He borrowed a buddies bike (who wanted it at the races to sell it) and he took a 5th and 7th for 7th overall.
The truth is, the bigger the displacement, the easier it is to ride because you can mellow the power out and not have to keep it on the edge of explosion to go fast. The 450F is WAY MORE RIDABLE and forgiving than the 250F. Just like a 250 2T is easier to ride well than a 125 - where you have to wring it's kneck and ride WAY OVER YOUR HEAD to go the same speed.
Of course, on the 125 you FEEL like Hannah, but you probably don't look as good...
First bit: I'm constantly disappointed in myself with how shallowly I think things through sometimes. That makes perfect sense.
Second bit: Its funny how, when riding the typical lites bikes which I classify as a 250F and 125, the riding style choice gets removed. Its all out or nothing. Yet funnily, you can still be fast despite the obvious power disadvantages. Its funny its almost like, because the choice is removed and you're forced to go fast, you really do go fast. Last Thursday I got lapped twice in the space of 12 laps by a Honda CR125 guy. He was the quintessential 125 pilot: hit the good dirt hard and don't you dare shut off. It was awesome to watch from behind. BRAAAAAAP slamed into a rut at WOT. I was on my 250sx. In my defense, I still had the pirelli mid hard that came with the bike. But I'm not ashamed to say that even had I been on tarmac and he on dirt, I couldn't have run him down. Just brilliant.
Ok enough nostalgia. Down to the points. In MXA's Chuck Sun test article of the KX500AF, he had it geared at 14/49 and said he would like to gear it taller, at 14/47. Thats like a second gear only bike... At the biggest displacement level I can understand that the bikes BS power output could pull that insanely tall gearing, so you don't worry about grabbing gears and instead can focus on technique and lines. However, it doesn't work quite so well in the lites class. I mean it could be made to work well power focused on a meaty bottom end and gearing that wasn't quite that tall but still tall. I dunno, it could work. I know that my 250sx won't rev out to its redline, you gotta jam in a new gear. Saving grace is the hydraulic clutch though (orgasmic).
God I wish I had money, theres so many questions I want to know the first hand answers to.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 21, 2013, 11:21:52 AM
Quote
Speedway in Florida sand. I ran at the front, fell down, got up in 4th and ran
Sorry...I meant HE...I was just dreaming again...
Post by: Stusmoke on July 21, 2013, 11:38:19 AM
Post by: rlaj1004 on July 21, 2013, 01:02:50 PM
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 21, 2013, 01:05:09 PM
Quote
( but then what would we **** about )
Emig-WTF??
Post by: Stusmoke on July 22, 2013, 12:01:31 AM
You know I just don't buy into that line of thinking. RV won his 250 championship and went to Motocross of Nations on his 250 and swept his moto's against 450's. If you look at the lap times of the 250's, as a group they run slower, which makes sense as they are mostly younger less experience riders. But a bunch of the top riders will post lap times faster than at least half the 450 field. Even now that they are swapping motos. Locally I see 250 2S beat the snot out of 450 riders. I know they are not national caliper pros but they are pros. And IMO I think alot of them could be would be National with adequate funding or backing. And Robby Marshal qualified on a 250 before ( I crash alot Canard) took him out, at that point he was running about 16th. I truly think if a top ten rider spent the time, with the money and backing on a 2S he would be competive. And if the AMA pulled there head out of their arse and the factory's D*&^ out out of there mouth and raced equal displacement or equal HP like every other friggen race series, the 2S would really be competive ( but then what would we **** about )
Ain't ever gonna happen. Only reason four strokes ever took off is because of the advantage they had with DD. Thats how there were sales, thats how there was R&D and thats how they got to where they are today. No DD, no advantage. no advantage, no sales, no sales, no four stonks. Think about it, if it had been equal from the start, would someone have said: You know what? I feel like riding a bike that is extremely unreliable, extremely expensive when the reliability rears its head, much slower, much heavier, much louder, much harder to start, poorer handling just cos I can.
No one. There would have been no incentive to buy them. If you made it equal displacement at the highest level of racing in america, who knows what would happen? Its hard to say. Would all the factories continue to push their 250Fs? Would Yamaha get their two stroke checked out and privateer teams make hay with it? Hard to say. The gap of development between the two and four strokes is huge. Factory 250Fs these days would no doubt be making power very close to a production 250 and making it in a much more usable fashion and range.
My prediction would be that teh factories continued with their 250Fs, maybe some privateers would pick up the 250. Maybe KTM would say, nah f*ck this sh*t, turn around and put musquin on a 250 and lay waste to the next season, maybe he would fall on his face. One things for certain: If this keeps going, the lites class will end up a pure factory backed race because no privateer can afford to compete. So long as its ED for my races, the big five can tear eachother to bits, I don't care. All I want is fair game.
Only reason something similar hasn't happened in the Amatuers, is because everyone is either too ignorant or prideful to go for the 250 when its been shot down by them for all these years, or because they want to be getting some Pro contracts soon and riding a two stroke makes that difficult.
Post by: rlaj1004 on July 22, 2013, 03:20:03 PM
The quote below is from the KTM 125/250/250F shoot out. If that is the general consensus in the pro world it is now wonder we don't see more 2S.
Can see how continually elevating the sport to a little rich kids pastime makes it a good thing for the factory teams. It is expensive enough on 2S. They are going to kill the sport for normal people.
(If you race a two-stroke, the factory scouts for the big teams will discount your performance. To get a factory deal to race a 250cc four-stroke, you need to be racing a 250cc four-stroke)
Post by: Stusmoke on July 22, 2013, 09:38:15 PM
I know but I can dream can't I?
The quote below is from the KTM 125/250/250F shoot out. If that is the general consensus in the pro world it is now wonder we don't see more 2S.
Can see how continually elevating the sport to a little rich kids pastime makes it a good thing for the factory teams. It is expensive enough on 2S. They are going to kill the sport for normal people.
(If you race a two-stroke, the factory scouts for the big teams will discount your performance. To get a factory deal to race a 250cc four-stroke, you need to be racing a 250cc four-stroke)
They already have.
Lets say you are a person thinking about giving motocross a go. You have absolutely no knowledge of motors whatsoever and don't even realise the political crap thats going on today. So you head out to the track, and see everyone riding a four stroke. What are you gonna buy? A four stroke
Lets say you buy brand new. So you put your hours on it, but again you don't understand how high maintenance these things are so you don't even change the oil for the first twenty hours. No valve clearance checking, no nothing. So 50 hours in (if you're LUCKY), pop goes the top end, about 2 gee gee's in parts and labour here in Aus and thats assuming that it just STOPPED, without dropping a valve into the cylinder or anything. How many are gonna continue to race it? Not many.
If you buy one of those really good deal "Maximum of 25 hours easy riding time, just don't have the time to ride it anymore" 250Fs, it is almost always close to 60 hours riding time and has been flogged senseless for an entire season and hte dude is just selling it and buying a brand new bike which is actually cheaper or as cheap as doing the top end on the current bike. No ****. So you get it home and it ****s its pants inside 15 hours. Even worse.
So yes, they have pretty much wrecked the sport for new comers and guys that want to actually race competitively, but simply can't afford 5 grand worth of engine mods right on top of a brand new bike cost, and having to replace all those super trick Titanium valves and shims, and the lightweight con rod and the high compression piston etc etc.
Post by: rlaj1004 on July 23, 2013, 12:28:20 PM
I was one of those, bought a great deal, hardly used 250F for my son. Poof went the motor $$$$$$$, back on the bike, poof went the motor this time due to the **** mechanic. Poof went the bike as is. in a box. But at least I learned. Now the garage hosts KTM250SX, YZ250, CR125, YZ125, YZ85, and KX100
What really sad is if the Manufactures really wanted to build the sport, get these kids that start as teens on 125 starter bikes without breaking the bank, move them to 250's or 250F's as they get better. Have 85's that could be toned down ( my petite 12 year old girl wants to ride but its a bit much to start out on ) Then put out the 100 or 110 in between bikes for women or shorter lighter kids. More people would ride, more bikes would be sold. KTM can't be the only manufacture that has that figured out.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on July 23, 2013, 02:30:48 PM
Quote
What really sad is if the Manufactures really wanted to build the sport...
The thing is, most of the manufacturers (the big 4) already have suitable parts supply to do just this. In the case of Yamaha, take the big wheel YZ85, insert a DT125, sell it in the Yamaha pink of the '90's with maybe a daisy on the tank and every non- race wife would have one. Sell the same bike in blue for the boys and you have a great "too big for a kid" beginner bike (much like the XR200).
Kawasaki created one of the best "all round" bikes ever with leftover parts. (The KDX line).
I don't necessarily agree with KTM's chosen line up. I might do it a bit different, but by mixing parts and having a product geared toward everyone is a better business plan than gearing to to a select few.
Post by: factoryX on July 27, 2013, 09:31:03 PM
How could this be the same person...
Post by: Stusmoke on July 27, 2013, 09:36:15 PM
How could this be the same person...
That seems like excessive lift... I do it too, just not quite to that degree.
Post by: factoryX on July 27, 2013, 09:45:56 PM
Post by: twosmoke595 on July 27, 2013, 10:15:35 PM
How could this be the same person...
That seems like excessive lift... I do it too, just not quite to that degree.
stu what you're missing is that his left foot is about 4 inches from the ground...
Post by: factoryX on July 27, 2013, 10:32:22 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on July 27, 2013, 10:34:58 PM
Post by: factoryX on July 27, 2013, 10:47:57 PM
Fairly big dude
Post by: Stusmoke on July 27, 2013, 10:55:04 PM