Post by: evo550 on June 08, 2013, 12:53:15 AM
Titled, "Are injected two-strokes a myth"
Joachim Sauer, KTM Production Manager.
We have been working a lot in recent years in order to get the injection system ready for our two-strokes.
I went out into the market and visited lots of dealers and spoke to hundreds of riders and asked them if they would like an injected two-stroke. Everybody said "Great when will it be ready" I then said " Would you still love it if it was the price was close to the 450/500exc, also instead of just carburetor and ignition, you would have to deal with pumps and all the complexities of the system, which adds 2kg of weight. It would make the whole thing so difficult to deal with you would not be able to change a piston at home".
From the beginning, I could see their enthusiasm get less and less, and at the end, out of 100 people, only about 5 people wanted such a system. So we decided we won't introduce a system until the rules (Homologation) force us to. This will probably happen with year model 2017. But if we had to do it next year we would be ready. But we want to keep it back and do some more testing.
So there you have it, straight from the horses mouth....
Post by: TMKIWI on June 08, 2013, 01:12:33 AM
I for 1 would like one but I can see why other people are not so keen.
Everyone wants the simplicity of the 2 stroke, but in the future there may not be any choice if we want to buy a new smoker. Thats if the manufactors want to build them.
Post by: shanes on June 08, 2013, 01:28:18 AM
i have to deal with electronics on the superbike and they piss me off .
Post by: lauterbacher on June 08, 2013, 02:09:35 AM
Post by: evo550 on June 08, 2013, 02:43:45 AM
I think the whole issue is a bunch of crap and the real question was never asked and responded to, that is most people are unhappy wth you on the two stroke front because we don't see any true R@D on the two stroke motor as it sits.it seems that you Mr KTM put all your RD into the four strokes while just playing both sides of the fence and doing nothing to the two strokes. what say ye
What
? "Most people are unhappy with you on the two stroke front because we don't see any true R@D"What are the names of these "Most people" every one I know with KTM 2t's are stoked with them.
The article also goes onto discuss the difficulties in getting new bikes Homologated with AMA and FIM,an example of 2 years for a headlight change on the exc range was given, imagine the difficulties of getting a injected bike through the beaucrates..
Post by: SachsGS on June 08, 2013, 02:44:25 AM
Post by: evo550 on June 08, 2013, 06:10:02 AM
So unless they are required by law, why would they.
Post by: chump6784 on June 08, 2013, 06:36:16 AM
Post by: bearorso on June 08, 2013, 09:42:45 AM
The cost / complexity and difficulty of service, sound like a load of horse **** to me. Unless they have developed a ridiculous system and /or are paying someone like Orbital crazy licensing fees. Pumps etc mentioned, hints that they've done a high pressure , in head system, such as Orbitals, that others have used.
High pressure, in head DFI - not really the best solution for a 2t. There are other ways to do it, that are simpler, and cheaper.
Pierer made note of BMW / Huskies interesting 2t tech they had in his main interview with Alan Cathcart, as being of main interest to him with Huskies future - I was surprised it was part of the purchase, but it must have been.
Perhaps they are going back to the drawing board, and they have had their eyes opened by seeing and acquiring something much better / simpler / cheaper than they had developed. It wouldn't be the first time that a company and it's engineers, became so self involved, that they stuffed up right royally.
If a tiny, re-start up company like Ossa can do a superbly working EFI - I've ridden the bike, and it' 'carburates' superbly, and starts easily, the drongos that are having problems with respect to starting, just aren't doing it the way the bike requires - a much bigger company such as KTM should do better, with whatever they have developed. Perhaps they haven't. Classic
Sauer may just be protecting sales of 4ts. They've sunk multi millions into so many 4t engine designs, that, whilst they can still sell every ancient 2t they produce with Big Profit margins, why bother putting out new 2ts? So, BS a fair amount about the "costs" of a new 2t.
I'd really hoped that BM / Husky would thoroughly gazump KTM with regards to 2ts - well, it certainly won't happen now, with KTM getting their hands on Husky. Lets hope that some other company(s) 'c o c k s their leg' on KTM, and not just teeny tiny Ossa.
Post by: Jeram on June 08, 2013, 11:23:46 AM
I dont see any reason why you couldnt still change a piston at home... they've been using high pressure DFI on snowmobiles for years and rebuilds are no more difficult than any other.
Post by: SachsGS on June 08, 2013, 03:44:14 PM
Post by: citabjockey on June 08, 2013, 04:13:51 PM
Also, if they could jump through the EPA hoops in the states to make their DI bikes legal on the street in the US of A, well, that would be a new market and they *might* be able to sell more bikes. But of course one street legal two stroke sale would again be a loss of a four stroke EXC sale. I guess not much gain there either (which burns me up). Not to mention all the service and parts business they get with all the four strokes running around.
If it ain't broke the corporation is not going to "fix" it.
Nope, its going to take competition to make this happen.
So if another company brought out an injected two stroke that worked well and competed with their products then its a whole new game. So if Ossa can finally get that FI enduro bike out there then we may see some action because each OSSA enduro sale would be a KTM sale lost. True even if the OSSA is not EPA legal. The FI threat posed by Husky with respect to this has been delt with already as mentioned earlier.
So what can we do to support Ossa or anyone else that could nudge KTM in the proper direction?
I can clearly picture a 250 FI two stroke motocrosser with fuel/ignition/power valve mapping to setup a powerband much like that of a 250F. Lap times would improve tons. THAT bike would sell like hotcakes.
Post by: factoryX on June 09, 2013, 04:27:22 AM
As for being more difficult to maintain? lmfao, once efi is set correctly you won't have to touch it again unless something minor goes like a fuel pump(3-15 minute job). People talk about wanting to run alcohol's in two strokes, a little dirty secret is that you have to run fuel pumps to keep the fuel flowing fast enough(Burns at a higher rate), and people have been doing that for the last 30+ years. Hell, even my dad 85 TRI-Z 250 two stroke trike runs one.
Post by: Lsroutlaw on June 09, 2013, 05:17:19 AM
Post by: rookie on June 09, 2013, 05:24:17 AM
simple and proven, and i can jet it myself!
and most important, is low cost!
Post by: factoryX on June 09, 2013, 07:54:11 AM
Post by: Uniflow on June 09, 2013, 08:22:12 AM
Post by: TMKIWI on June 09, 2013, 09:27:39 AM
With all the quick disconect fuel couplings available today it's a pretty easy job.
Post by: ford832 on June 10, 2013, 12:41:15 AM
What a crock of ****...
I dont see any reason why you couldnt still change a piston at home... they've been using high pressure DFI on snowmobiles for years and rebuilds are no more difficult than any other.
My sentiments exactly.The guy supposedly asks people if they want it then tells them how terrible it would be in so many ways.
How long did it take Suzuki to get their EFI system for their RMZ accepted to race AMA?...and everyone else for that matter.
The snomos aren't hard to work on at all-in many ways,far easier than a carb set up.
Definitely a big crock of crap.
Post by: factoryX on June 10, 2013, 01:04:32 AM
Post by: Stusmoke on June 10, 2013, 04:04:23 AM
As far as EFI vs. Carb goes, whether or not carbs are a more effective method of fuel/air delivery has become irrelevant. The vast majority of motocross riders have decided that EFI is better. If the vast majority wants something, the companies have little choice but to throw it in the ring. The other option is loose alot of customers to the companies offering whatever this thing is. Its why the arse has dropped out of YZ250F sales in the last couple years, same thing happened to the 450SXF up until the 2013 (and 2012 and a half) model. Atleast thats what happened in my area. Reason being is mankind will always seek to make their lives easier. Motor vehicles, computers, washing machines, hair dryers and just about every appliance in the average house all spawned from this rule and the same thing will happen to motorcycles with EFI. Rather than having to plug chop for hours on end you can plug your bike into your laptop and upload a new map. Done.
What a crock of ****...
I dont see any reason why you couldnt still change a piston at home... they've been using high pressure DFI on snowmobiles for years and rebuilds are no more difficult than any other.
My sentiments exactly.The guy supposedly asks people if they want it then tells them how terrible it would be in so many ways.
How long did it take Suzuki to get their EFI system for their RMZ accepted to race AMA?...and everyone else for that matter.
The snomos aren't hard to work on at all-in many ways,far easier than a carb set up.
Definitely a big crock of crap.
Twas my first impression aswell.