Post by: rlaj1004 on March 30, 2013, 11:25:20 PM
KTM has a fuel-injected two-stroke engine in the works, but surprisingly they claim that they will release it as an offroad model before putting it on the motocross models. Because of environmental regulations, the enduro line must run cleaner than closed-course motocross machines, which is why KTM fuel-injected the 2012 450EXC, but not the 450SXF
Its seems that KTM will lead the pack on fuel injected 2S, would be cool.
Here is the link:
http://motocrossactionmag.com/mobile/News/MXAS-2012-KTM-250SX-TWOSTROKE-MOTOCROSS-TEST-THIS-8221.aspx
Post by: Jeram on March 31, 2013, 12:37:11 PM
First it was a KTM, then it was a berg, then the husky was going to have the DFI, then KTM and the berg again.
I've been hearing this crap since 2008!
KTM isnt waiting for anything at all they are playing a game.
They dont want to be the first to bring it out, they want to be the second because thats where the profit is for inovative items.
1. The first company to release has to pay big dollars for advertising and PR to convert the Carbie die hards to EFI/DFI
2. The first company suffers poor sales in the first year while the bike is an odd ball
3. Faults are undoubtedly found in the first model which need fixing
where on the other hand.
1. KTM sits back and watches what unfolds and benefits from the Advertising by the first company as they try to convert the new inovation from an oddball innovation to mainstream technology.
2. KTM then introduces their product in year 2 once the product is mainstream
3. KTM learns from the first companies mistakes and ensures that they dont happen in their model
4. But most importantly KTM can decide whether the whole thing is worth investing in based on customer addopting the first brands bikes in year 1. (is it really worth it?)
Post by: bearorso on April 01, 2013, 12:52:01 PM
KTM have said it all along - it, whatever It is , will appear went it has to appear.
Meanwhile, They'll just milk in the profits from their biggest profit generators - the 2, 2t engine modules they have. They are probably still more profitable than the Bajaj, Indian made 125 and 200cc 4ts. Though, once Bajaj hit the boosters on them (well, Pulsars included - I'd say the 'boosters' have long been lit), it's game over. Until they make the 2t engines in India!
Post by: Jeram on April 01, 2013, 09:46:53 PM
back 4 years ago it was euro 4 which came and went, then euro 5 is being rolled out and still no change.
I read over the euro emmissions targets and didnt see anything that really applied that would make a two stroke offroad vehicle require DFI.
If you can find which euro emmissions target will cause two strokes to start running EFI/DFI then let me know because I would be interested to see if someone else can pinpoint an exact time point where 2Ts will HAVE to run clean.
Post by: maicoman009 on April 01, 2013, 11:34:17 PM
Theyve been saying that for years and years and year.You're dead on Jeram.I know how KTM operates as a company & they will as you've quoted be the 2nd brand to put DI on their off-road model 2-strokes.KTM will sit back & wait to see the 1st company do it & then either learn from their mistakes or if it's successful do their best to copy off of it.
First it was a KTM, then it was a berg, then the husky was going to have the DFI, then KTM and the berg again.
I've been hearing this crap since 2008!
KTM isnt waiting for anything at all they are playing a game.
They dont want to be the first to bring it out, they want to be the second because thats where the profit is for inovative items.
1. The first company to release has to pay big dollars for advertising and PR to convert the Carbie die hards to EFI/DFI
2. The first company suffers poor sales in the first year while the bike is an odd ball
3. Faults are undoubtedly found in the first model which need fixing
where on the other hand.
1. KTM sits back and watches what unfolds and benefits from the Advertising by the first company as they try to convert the new inovation from an oddball innovation to mainstream technology.
2. KTM then introduces their product in year 2 once the product is mainstream
3. KTM learns from the first companies mistakes and ensures that they dont happen in their model
4. But most importantly KTM can decide whether the whole thing is worth investing in based on customer addopting the first brands bikes in year 1. (is it really worth it?)
Post by: Stusmoke on April 01, 2013, 11:39:45 PM
Theyve been saying that for years and years and year.You're dead on Jeram.I know how KTM operates as a company & they will as you've quoted be the 2nd brand to put DI on their off-road model 2-strokes.KTM will sit back & wait to see the 1st company do it & then either learn from their mistakes or if it's successful do their best to copy off of it.
First it was a KTM, then it was a berg, then the husky was going to have the DFI, then KTM and the berg again.
I've been hearing this crap since 2008!
KTM isnt waiting for anything at all they are playing a game.
They dont want to be the first to bring it out, they want to be the second because thats where the profit is for inovative items.
1. The first company to release has to pay big dollars for advertising and PR to convert the Carbie die hards to EFI/DFI
2. The first company suffers poor sales in the first year while the bike is an odd ball
3. Faults are undoubtedly found in the first model which need fixing
where on the other hand.
1. KTM sits back and watches what unfolds and benefits from the Advertising by the first company as they try to convert the new inovation from an oddball innovation to mainstream technology.
2. KTM then introduces their product in year 2 once the product is mainstream
3. KTM learns from the first companies mistakes and ensures that they dont happen in their model
4. But most importantly KTM can decide whether the whole thing is worth investing in based on customer addopting the first brands bikes in year 1. (is it really worth it?)
x2. Its called business.
Post by: Jeram on April 02, 2013, 12:19:06 AM
they even did it for something as simple as reverse cylinder 450F's.
I cant remember who mentioned that on here a few weeks/months back, maybe it was Bearoso?
I wish I could just go to BRP and ask them to cut their 800 DFI twin in half and sell it to me, even with the CVT (in a lighter more compact form due to half the hp).
Id take an 80hp CVT 400cc single any day of the week.
Post by: bearorso on April 02, 2013, 10:21:44 AM
exactly which legislation is it?
back 4 years ago it was euro 4 which came and went, then euro 5 is being rolled out and still no change.
I read over the euro emmissions targets and didnt see anything that really applied that would make a two stroke offroad vehicle require DFI.
If you can find which euro emmissions target will cause two strokes to start running EFI/DFI then let me know because I would be interested to see if someone else can pinpoint an exact time point where 2Ts will HAVE to run clean.
I don't know exactly - I'm no member of the European Parliament nor part of KTMs emissions / legislation / rules matching development team. Apparently, the 'goal posts' keep moving, but they are very close to being brought in force.
Firstly, Euro 3 was the most prominent one that effected 2ts - that's where you saw some 2t bikes in Europe coming with differrent pipes with catalysers in them, or, for example catalysers in the header pipe - I got caught out prepping a EXC125 and 200 here that had those in the pipe - Euro market bikes, diverted to OZ.
Euro 5 was reputed, initially to be mostly pertaining to Diesels, from my recollection. Then , various articles began to bring it into discussion with 2 strokes - particulate matter, high petro - chemical emissions are very much part of 2ts problems.
Sit back and be ignorant all you want people, legislation, that will force 2T Clean Tech(s) - do read that, please - are imminent. It will be on Road Going bikes. The European EXCs - for most owners in Europe, and here in OZ and Many countries, Road Registration Is a requirement.
So, some clean tech, be it EFI, DFI, things like Smart Carbs, some with trapping valves, AST, FAST and many other techs to clean them up, are comming.
The MXers /Off Roaders that don't require it, almost certainly won't have it - KTM have said this themselves, a few times. Go in search of what KTM have said. Either it was last year, or the year befores model introduction conference at Munich Airport that one of the heads of KTM spoke about these points - it's all on video, that you can find and watch.
But, you never know, it may work so well / they ( companies - not just KTM) may want to ammortize the costs quicker, by much higher levels of production. Companies, especially KTM, have had a long time to develop their various Techs. And / or Other companies new 2ts / 2t Techs will force there hand, that whatever KTM have, will be fitted to more than just Road going 2ts.
If you think that Forced by Legislation clean tech is a long way away, you've your head in the sand, people.
KTM /Others, have just been milking the high profits from their *barely changed in decades 2ts*, for as long as they can. It's the way to do business. And I've written that, many times. It might pay you to read, And comprehend, what is written.
If they - KTM or any other company - Don't produce bikes that work well, whilst meeting the emissions levels that are required, they won't get sales. I guess they could sit back, and Not produce Road Legal 2ts for a few years, whilst others did, and "learn", but they'd be conceding a major part of the 2t market to other companies .
This is All About Legislation Pertaining To Road Legal 2 Strokes. I emphasise that, to help with peoples comprehension of what I am addressing in this discussion.
Reverse Cylinder 450s?
What are you on about , Jeram?
Reverse Cylinder 2ts, like the Ossa - certainly I've referred to that. And TZs /TZRs. And , probably the 'Tularis / Tul-Aris' - you know, Jeram, the reverse cylinder, Polaris based 2t twin Road Racer done by Dr Robin Tuluie? Though, it's old, and just has carbs at the front :
.
There are a lot of articles about Tuluies' bike you can find on the web, if any are interested.
Then of course, my recent suggestion of getting a Quaife (sp?) , or other gearbox, to hook up to that other 2t twin shown - though, that was not a reverse cylinder 2t, to my recollection - could be wrong on that, though.
A 400cc 2t, will probably be the near perfect modern Dirt Bike engine. Small, light, with plenty of torque and power, whilst being under little 'strain' producing that torque and HP. F*** the CV Transmission idea, though. Mind you, Honda's "dog leg" system, is bloody amazing. That's a "Auto / CV" trans I'd like to try.
Post by: Jeram on April 02, 2013, 11:24:54 AM
CO THC NMHC NOx HC+NOx PM P***
All those 6 parameters do not change when euro 6 is rolled out next year for both light petrol and diesel motors.
So tell me what legislation exists which will force KTM to run clean tech motors?
I have not yet once found anyone who had an answer, yet these euro emmissions targets are available for all to see on the internet with defined, set-in-stone role out dates
Post by: evo550 on April 02, 2013, 11:59:57 AM
The fuel remains the same, it still gets compressed and ignited the same therefore logic would say the by product would be the same. Injection is just a more effective way of getting the fuel from the tank to the combustion chamber.
Post by: Jeram on April 02, 2013, 12:16:53 PM
This can either be in the form of
a) inject into the transfer ports late in the cylinder filling so that the first part of the fresh charge which escapes out the exhaust does not contain fuel.
b) inject directly into the cylinder after the exhaust port closes.
I dont mean to sound like I dont want injected 2Ts, Id love to have a DI two stroke to ride on the road EVERY DAY.
But i've done the research long before this topic was created and cannot find a single part of the Euro regulations which will require two strokes to become cleaner.
Im sure eventually this will occur, perhaps in euro-7 which has yet to be formalized and likely wouldn't be in place for 5 years.
But I cannot find anything which differs from Euro-5 to Euro-6 for light vehicles. So by deduction if a KTM two stroke passes Euro-5 it will automatically pass Euro-6.
Please if you can find information to the contrary please do share, but as far as I can tell Euro-6 (2014) is centered around reducing the emissions of bulk transport.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on April 02, 2013, 04:03:36 PM
Theyve been saying that for years and years and year.
First it was a KTM, then it was a berg, then the husky was going to have the DFI, then KTM and the berg again.
And since KTM, Berg and husky are now owned by the same people...who will be first? Ossa/Gas-Gas? Can-Am (please, please, please make us an MX-7!), The big (dwindling) 4? Or might it come from a street bike company?
Post by: citabjockey on April 02, 2013, 05:17:09 PM
I really hope the xfer port DFI YZ works out, does well and manufacturer folks take notice.
In the meantime I will take my PWK sporting, rules violating, two stroke KTM 250 for another spin - while I can swing a leg over it. C'mon guys! Step up!
Im sure eventually this will occur, perhaps in euro-7 which has yet to be formalized and likely wouldn't be in place for 5 years.
Post by: 2T Institute on April 03, 2013, 06:51:35 AM
EuroX emissions targets are NOT based on the individual models but are calculated across the entire model range, the idea being manufacturers can still have thirsty sport/competition models that don't meet the targets but the everyday commuter vehicles are well under the target so on average it balances out.
So there is not a single reason manufacturers would spend a gazzillion Euros to make a model compliant when they can make an existing compliant model further under the target
Post by: evo550 on April 03, 2013, 08:00:15 AM
Injecting a 2t dirt bike defeats half the purpose of why we ride them in the first place, simplicity, reliability and price. lets leave them the way the are, carbs give a bike character
Post by: eprovenzano on April 03, 2013, 01:20:54 PM
Post by: rlaj1004 on April 03, 2013, 02:18:21 PM
So Uniflow, have you got any estimates? do you expect an jump in HP?
Post by: SachsGS on April 03, 2013, 03:03:30 PM
On the U.S. Ebay site there is a EFI 170cc Derbi GPR for sale.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on April 03, 2013, 03:22:02 PM
Yeah, I gotta agree, Comparatively speaking the amount of damaging gasses a 2t motorcycle puts out are a fart in space to other things on this planet.
Injecting a 2t dirt bike defeats half the purpose of why we ride them in the first place, simplicity, reliability and price. lets leave them the way the are, carbs give a bike character
Gotta disagree.
The third world and other "developing countries" are chock full of small 2T engines and they put out FAR MORE harmful gasses than the developed (4$) world. We 'might not' see it on MX bikes in the very near future, but you WILL see more and more 2T bikes being targeted for India, China, Brasil, and a host of smaller places like Thailand, the PI, Malasya, etc. Eventually we'll catch up!
As for being "more complex", well we all fought it on our cars, trucks and dune buggies. VW (or Porsche) powered buggies gave way to V6 Mercrusier motors (Chevy V6) because of availability of carbed versions. But eventually even WE evolved. My rock crawler has FI and I would be dead without it!
Post by: citabjockey on April 03, 2013, 03:58:18 PM
As stated by others, all this stuff has been made to work on other platforms with extreme reliability. The challenge on a dirt bike is the sheer cleanliness required and the pounding the components will take. Much more than on a snowmobile or an outboard on both counts.
Even with DI/FI stuff on it a two stroke engine STILL would not have cams, valves, springs, chains. And would still make far superior HP per CC. I have to believe that mass produced FI equipment has to be cheaper to manufacture that all that precision machined valve gear nonsense. You still would be able to pop the jug off in 20 minutes. The advantages remain.
Without this I feel that the two stroke may be a dead end for our dirt bikes - in the long run. Unless something big happens (or AMA/FIM change the rules back to what they should be), and the Euro regs are as you say there really is little reason to continue making them from a bean counter point of view. KTM somehow has the wherewithal to keep development programs going for both 4T and 2T. How long can that last?
Keep dreaming because you aint ever going to see a direct injection two stroke dirt bike, for a host of technical and cost reasons.
EuroX emissions targets are NOT based on the individual models but are calculated across the entire model range, the idea being manufacturers can still have thirsty sport/competition models that don't meet the targets but the everyday commuter vehicles are well under the target so on average it balances out.
So there is not a single reason manufacturers would spend a gazzillion Euros to make a model compliant when they can make an existing compliant model further under the target
Post by: Uniflow on April 03, 2013, 08:16:51 PM
So when caught with a problem on the Bighorn with the engine far too wide, large carb stuck out the side and problems with fueling on E90 I thought perhaps I'll have a go at EFI and get rid of the carb, how hard could it be?? Now I see why It's taken a long time for the twostroke to catch up on EFI, there have been many issues but whats changed is the computers are now so good ( fast ) port injection is now possible. This is a game changer. Yes it's more expensive and yes it's heavier but the gains I think are worth it. The YZ 250 should have a smoother power delivery and by having a larger intake make more power although this is only a byproduct. Power delivery control is what I'm after.
I've got too many projects on the go ( that's why the 250 EFI isn't running yet ) but this weekend we should have the bike finished and ready to start. I'll video it if you like.
Post by: teriks on April 03, 2013, 08:34:22 PM
On another note, Arctic cat have an interesting variation on the FI/DI theme in it's new 600 twostroke.
http://www.arcticinsider.com/Article/Tech-Insight-Inside-the-new-Arctic-Cat-600-C-TEC2-Engine
Plenty of cooling of the small end there.
Post by: 2T Institute on April 04, 2013, 05:43:49 AM
Gotta disagree.
The third world and other "developing countries" are chock full of small 2T engines and they put out FAR MORE harmful gasses than the developed (4$) world.
I see so someone on a 125 two stroke bike weaving through Bangkok traffic uses more fuel than 1 person in their Hummer/F150 in a LA traffic jam?
I think you may be right. But its not a slam dunk. While the complexity of the injection stuff is undeniable there are advantages even on a pure dirt bike (but probably not for a motocrosser) like increased range, no flooding when the bike is on its side, no messing with jets AT ALL, no pinging or blubbering, yada yada. Right? Potentially the power band would be superior and perhaps with higher peak as well.Injection is not that complex but a optimised 2T engine IS very complex, EFI componets are rugged and reliable.How long does it take to change a main jet? Bikes shouldn't be on their side
Fuel economy would be better but throttle response and HP and spread is down to the engine and pipe.
On the U.S. Ebay site there is a EFI 170cc Derbi GPR for sale.
All the work and a 45cc capacity increase that made 5hp LESS than what we get from a carbed RS125. Was so good it's up for sale.
I am more intersted in the horsepower the injected 2S's would seem to put out. After reading the article about the injected quad on TSM it seems that they would benifit substantially.
Read the above and did you EVER see a bike(other than the 30 second dyno run) or a vehicle with a 2T engine run in a race or the road that was set up by the infamous High Gain Tuning?
Post by: citabjockey on April 04, 2013, 05:53:09 AM
I see so someone on a 125 two stroke bike weaving through Bangkok traffic uses more fuel than 1 person in their Hummer/F150 in a LA traffic jam?
Post by: msmola2002 on April 04, 2013, 06:06:12 AM
Post by: scottydog on April 04, 2013, 07:23:53 AM
You know darn well he was talking collectively. And a 125 Bangkok two stroke probably puts out more unburned hydrocarbons then that hummer (perhaps even two of them).
I see so someone on a 125 two stroke bike weaving through Bangkok traffic uses more fuel than 1 person in their Hummer/F150 in a LA traffic jam?
That only means anything if you believe in all that global warming stuff,
apparently there's been no warming in last 18 years
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on April 04, 2013, 10:19:45 AM
@ msmola2002 - Nice pic. Now consider that a 2T motorcycle equals 20 of those cars. Each.
@ citabjocky - You'd be surprised how clean a Hummer is these days. They need a lot of fuel to push them around but what comes out the pipe is negligable in comparison to an unregulated, lead fuel burning, 2 cylinder snow mobile engine pushing a Tuk-Tuk in the PI.
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on April 04, 2013, 11:09:38 AM
Post by: evo550 on April 04, 2013, 11:54:21 AM
Yeah, I gotta agree, Comparatively speaking the amount of damaging gasses a 2t motorcycle puts out are a fart in space to other things on this planet.
Injecting a 2t dirt bike defeats half the purpose of why we ride them in the first place, simplicity, reliability and price. lets leave them the way the are, carbs give a bike character
Gotta disagree.
The third world and other "developing countries" are chock full of small 2T engines and they put out FAR MORE harmful gasses than the developed (4$) world. We 'might not' see it on MX bikes in the very near future, but you WILL see more and more 2T bikes being targeted for India, China, Brasil, and a host of smaller places like Thailand, the PI, Malasya, etc. Eventually we'll catch up!
As for being "more complex", well we all fought it on our cars, trucks and dune buggies. VW (or Porsche) powered buggies gave way to V6 Mercrusier motors (Chevy V6) because of availability of carbed versions. But eventually even WE evolved. My rock crawler has FI and I would be dead without it!
Yeah, If 2t motorcycles where the only contributors, I was comparing them to say manufacturing in china or India or Jet aircraft dumping their gasses into the upper atmosphere or Agriculture. Swapping a 2t motorcycle from carb to DI is going to make negligible difference. Environazi's and politicians pick their targets well and they are usually the smallest and weakest, so it gives everyone the impression they are changing the world, when they are actually doing nothing.
A fairly old paper, but it outlines transportation contributors to greenhouse gasses in the U.S. not a 2t anything in sight.
http://www.c2es.org/docUploads/ustransp.pdf
Post by: Stusmoke on April 05, 2013, 12:37:16 AM
@ 2T Institute - I was refering to exhaust emissions, not amount of fuel used. The developing countries, with their growing need for resources and their lack of reulation and enforcement is where the problem lies and where solutions will be found. Across Europe and America, 2T are a very small part of the problem and 2T off-road machines don't even make up 1% of that. Of the 2T portion of the problem, first is the lawn and garden, then the marine industry. They pretty much eliminated the 2T from the roads in America and only places like Italy and Spain have much with the scooter industry.
@ msmola2002 - Nice pic. Now consider that a 2T motorcycle equals 20 of those cars. Each.
@ citabjocky - You'd be surprised how clean a Hummer is these days. They need a lot of fuel to push them around but what comes out the pipe is negligable in comparison to an unregulated, lead fuel burning, 2 cylinder snow mobile engine pushing a Tuk-Tuk in the PI.
When you say a 2t motorcycle do you mean for example a YZ250? Or a 250cc road racer? Is that accurate? 20 cars to one two stroke? That seems alot...
Post by: SachsGS on April 05, 2013, 04:39:19 AM
Post by: Jeram on April 06, 2013, 11:01:34 AM
The 50cc scooter does not require good throttle reponse due to its small power output and CVT transmission.
With these scooters it is WOT or nothing otherwise you dont go anywhere.
Also the 50cc scooters are already direct injected using currect technology, I've riden an Apirilia DI-TECH 50cc scooter. It was pretty ****, but fun to see how far I could get with half a liter in the tank.
(it was pretty damn far!)
These scooters are already available in most countries and companies such as Athena are trying to make it more affordable to that they can be installed on budget commuters for the asian market.
This compared to 2T offroad DFI, they are a wholly different.
The 50cc scooters are incredibly efficient at the cost of performance and throttle response
Post by: 2T Institute on April 06, 2013, 12:39:25 PM
I think the 170cc EFI Derbi provides a noticeable and reliable improvement in performance over a standard road issue GPR125.
When was that engine tuned by 'traditional' means? Trust me it isn't hard to improve on a standard restricted learner legal engine. Remember that is with a 36% capacity increase, which is not a validation of the EFI conversion. It is more a validation of "no replacement for displacement" axiom.
@ 2T Institute - I was refering to exhaust emissions, not amount of fuel used. The developing countries, with their growing need for resources and their lack of reulation and enforcement is where the problem lies and where solutions will be found. Across Europe and America, 2T are a very small part of the problem and 2T off-road machines don't even make up 1% of that. Of the 2T portion of the problem, first is the lawn and garden, then the marine industry. They pretty much eliminated the 2T from the roads in America and only places like Italy and Spain have much with the scooter industry.
@ msmola2002 - Nice pic. Now consider that a 2T motorcycle equals 20 of those cars. Each.
@ citabjocky - You'd be surprised how clean a Hummer is these days. They need a lot of fuel to push them around but what comes out the pipe is negligable in comparison to an unregulated, lead fuel burning, 2 cylinder snow mobile engine pushing a Tuk-Tuk in the PI.
What a crock of **** a Hummer has a fuel consumption of 24litres/100km in the city a performance 125 averages about 5-6litres/100km in city traffic. My old Honda H100 ran forever around town on a few litres of fuel. By volume alone a urban use 4WD/SUV emits 4 times the hydrocarbons by volume alone regardless of the efficiency of the engine. The average family in SE Asia would be unlikely to afford to use any other form of transport than a motorcycle.
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on April 06, 2013, 03:02:10 PM
I think the 170cc EFI Derbi provides a noticeable and reliable improvement in performance over a standard road issue GPR125.
When was that engine tuned by 'traditional' means? Trust me it isn't hard to improve on a standard restricted learner legal engine. Remember that is with a 36% capacity increase, which is not a validation of the EFI conversion. It is more a validation of "no replacement for displacement" axiom.@ 2T Institute - I was refering to exhaust emissions, not amount of fuel used. The developing countries, with their growing need for resources and their lack of reulation and enforcement is where the problem lies and where solutions will be found. Across Europe and America, 2T are a very small part of the problem and 2T off-road machines don't even make up 1% of that. Of the 2T portion of the problem, first is the lawn and garden, then the marine industry. They pretty much eliminated the 2T from the roads in America and only places like Italy and Spain have much with the scooter industry.
@ msmola2002 - Nice pic. Now consider that a 2T motorcycle equals 20 of those cars. Each.
@ citabjocky - You'd be surprised how clean a Hummer is these days. They need a lot of fuel to push them around but what comes out the pipe is negligable in comparison to an unregulated, lead fuel burning, 2 cylinder snow mobile engine pushing a Tuk-Tuk in the PI.
What a crock of **** a Hummer has a fuel consumption of 24litres/100km in the city a performance 125 averages about 5-6litres/100km in city traffic. My old Honda H100 ran forever around town on a few litres of fuel. By volume alone a urban use 4WD/SUV emits 4 times the hydrocarbons by volume alone regardless of the efficiency of the engine. The average family in SE Asia would be unlikely to afford to use any other form of transport than a motorcycle.
Did he ever say the hummer used less fuel? No. He said the hummer had much cleaner emissions which I am 100% sure will be true due to the amount of technology that goes into all modern cars these days, like I said earlier we have 7.5l diesels in our tractors that produce no smoke at all, just steam. So while my 125 will drink less fuel it most definitely won't produce less emissions.
Post by: msmola2002 on April 06, 2013, 03:46:26 PM
CH4 + 2 O2 ? CO2 + 2 H2O + energy
Buttload of CO2 there...
the more fuel burned the more CO2 emitted. yeah the stinker may emit more particulate, but if it is only burning a fraction of the hydrocarbon it physically can not produce as much CO2, NOx or any other kind of emission.
Post by: SachsGS on April 06, 2013, 03:57:11 PM
The achilles heel of the modern 4T is it's complexity (cost),physical size and weight, power generation per unit time and parasitic power losses (camshafts, oil control rings,oil pumps etc.). A DI 2T can match or exceed a 4T$'s fuel efficiency without any of any of these limitations (save perhaps the DI itself). DI 2T snowmobiles are already displacing the recently arrived 4T sleds, so it can happen commercially on a large scale.
Post by: citabjockey on April 06, 2013, 04:35:13 PM
I would think that the mere existence of a "backyard" converted 2T street motorcycle would be sufficient validation of EFI, a transitory step to DI. The fact that a private individual has taken upon themselves the time, expense and effort to convert a two cycle motorcycle to a more modern system of fuel delivery would indicate to me that the acknowledgement of the need to keep the 2T instep with current technologies is more wide spread then I would have thought.
The achilles heel of the modern 4T is it's complexity (cost),physical size and weight, power generation per unit time and parasitic power losses (camshafts, oil control rings,oil pumps etc.). A DI 2T can match or exceed a 4T$'s fuel efficiency without any of any of these limitations (save perhaps the DI itself). DI 2T snowmobiles are already displacing the recently arrived 4T sleds, so it can happen commercially on a large scale.
Post by: Jeram on April 07, 2013, 03:29:59 AM
Combine that with direct injection tha prevents unburnt particles from escaping out the exhaust (particlate emmissions) and 12000km service intervals and we have a winner.
I think that will beat most four strokes in terms of overall emmissions.
On another note, I have been following that EFI Derbi for many years on the 125ccsportsbikes.com forum.
It was more trouble that it was worth, it took 30% more capacity, a pipe and porting to get that increased power output.
I guarentee that if you put a PWK carb on it you would make more power at all RPMS.
But that doesnt mean that FI is crap, it just means that you really need to know what your doing to make it work better than a carb.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on April 07, 2013, 09:33:10 AM
Post by: Jeram on April 07, 2013, 10:32:28 AM
I would hope that whom ever makes a DFI system for motocross knows what they are doing...
Maybe bimota should have another crack
It still perplexes me why BRP doesnt just put Can-Am back into the MX market with a DI bike based on half of one of their sled engines.
Post by: SachsGS on April 07, 2013, 02:41:00 PM
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on April 07, 2013, 04:19:27 PM
Post by: TMKIWI on April 08, 2013, 06:09:17 AM
Maybe bimota should have another crack
Hell no.
It still perplexes me why BRP doesnt just put Can-Am back into the MX market with a DI bike based on half of one of their sled engines.
I was told on the quite a few years ago at a BRP dealer conference ( 06 I think ) that it was being looked at , But then the GFC happened.
Never heard about it again.
Post by: Jeram on April 08, 2013, 06:16:14 AM
Maybe bimota should have another crack
Hell no.It still perplexes me why BRP doesnt just put Can-Am back into the MX market with a DI bike based on half of one of their sled engines.
I was told on the quite a few years ago at a BRP dealer conference ( 06 I think ) that it was being looked at , But then the GFC happened.
Never heard about it again.
If you put 2 and 2 together in a logical manor than you can deduct that
The GFC killed new tech two strokes
Honda hates two strokes
therefore
HONDA WAS BEHIND THE GFC
I beleive!
sorry, I couldnt help myself
Post by: TMKIWI on April 08, 2013, 07:12:58 AM